Irresistible magic

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

Should iresistible magic affect your own creatures?

yes
18
28%
no
46
72%
 
Total votes: 64

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Naskoni
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Unread postby Naskoni » 28 Sep 2006, 08:47

Has anybody else noticed how when Jelly runs out of arguments he starts posting totally irrelevant, err, err, stuff? Or maybe it's just me as I couldn't exactly see the correlation between the request for this mod, IM and Armageddon... :devil:

Yes, there are NO bugs in this game - they are ALL intended features, part of Nival's master plan ;)

As it stand IM is something you can easily do without, actually Warlock will do better if IM is taken out completely, isn't it? Just rename it to Elemental Damage proficiency racial, leave the ED bonus and that's it.

One thing that stroke me in all those pages is how when somebody suggested a change to IM the first two reactions were that BDs would become overpowered or Armageddon will become overpowered, no one seem to miss the ability to penetrate the enemy units immunity (there are very few non-Dungeon units in total that are such and all of them are a lot "less" immune compared to BDs). In all comments IM is seen more like a brake, a limiting factor put there to ensure that Warlock's empowered spells don't get out of hand.

It might actually be interesting to see what the results of small poll that asks Dungeon players whether they prefer to have IM as it is or lose completely the ability to pierce enemy immunity but also not being able to harm their own Black Dragons, i.e. you eliminate IM completely, leaving only the ED bonus. What do you think people would say? Because for me IM is not even necessary - BDs are the single most affected unit by IM and its affected in a purely negative sense, even though a racial is supposed to give a distinct advantage, not disadvantages. How many factions except Dungeon have immune creatures or highly resistant creatures as to justify IM? Hmmm?

Additionally IM seems to be in a minority of game features that is just as harmful as it is advantegeous. For example - the Hydra's six headed attack - how come if you have friendly and enemy units next to it it selectively harms only the enemy ones? Why not apply the IM logic here and make it harm all with the same line of arguments that it will require more brainpower and you should be carefull with what you place next to them? Or Cerberi for that matter? Because IM is just like that at the moment.

Another example - how come you have a choice of whether to cast empowered spells or not? If they worked the way IM does you shouldn't have had a choice - it should have been enforced on you too and so from the very beginning - sure you get the advantage of casting more powerful spells, it just so happens that it costs you double, i.e. how come I cannot chose whether to cast Irresistible magic spells or nor - how come it is ALWAYS irresistible? How come Warlocks cannot cast a "simpler" type of spell if they wanted to - everybody else seems to be able, no?

IM is an enforced "bonus" that just so happens to hurt BDs the most, your own tier 7 upgraded units - someone explain to me why is IM supposed to be such a big advantege for me exactly? Other than the secondary racials is there any other substantial reason you would want to get it? Because when you do you will play your BDs the way you would if they didn't have any immunity, isn't it? So what advantage is it TO YOU that YOUR BDs have immunity exactly? Hmm? And people think IM is ok? Really?

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 28 Sep 2006, 09:26

Naskoni wrote:Has anybody else noticed how when Jelly runs out of arguments he starts posting totally irrelevant, err, err, stuff? Or maybe it's just me as I couldn't exactly see the correlation between the request for this mod, IM and Armageddon... :devil:

Yes, there are NO bugs in this game - they are ALL intended features, part of Nival's master plan ;)
Your typical way to argue:
Someone: A CERTAIN feature is no bug.
You: See above.

Moderator, a question? Is it permissible to call this way to argue utterly polemic, warping and malevolent without the thread being closed?

Second, there IS no correlation between the mod request and armageddon... not to mention the thread which is about Irresistible Magic. However, there is a connection to a post before. If connection to a thread was necessary to post under it a large percentage of the threads were just cut.

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Unread postby Naskoni » 28 Sep 2006, 09:33

Jolly Joker wrote:
Naskoni wrote:Has anybody else noticed how when Jelly runs out of arguments he starts posting totally irrelevant, err, err, stuff? Or maybe it's just me as I couldn't exactly see the correlation between the request for this mod, IM and Armageddon... :devil:

Yes, there are NO bugs in this game - they are ALL intended features, part of Nival's master plan ;)
Your typical way to argue:
Someone: A CERTAIN feature is no bug.
You: See above.

Moderator, a question? Is it permissible to call this way to argue utterly polemic, warping and malevolent without the thread being closed?

Second, there IS no correlation between the mod request and armageddon... not to mention the thread which is about Irresistible Magic. However, there is a connection to a post before. If connection to a thread was necessary to post under it a large percentage of the threads were just cut.
Oh, even observations now are personal attacks maybe? Or you simply seek excuses to ask for the thread to get closed because you have nothing more argue about or rather with? I can point you to the enoughT thread where you suddenly started discussing the support or expansion of GalCiv II or products they might make, something you bashed in the very same thread IIRC and which had NOTHING to do with it either? If you wanted to discuss a mod that had NOTHING to do with this thread then why post it here - there is a modding section - start a thread there, there are PMs too (as it was a personal request obviously).

How come you didn't address a single question in the post you quoted so selectively? Out of arguments? Hmmm? Oh, and additionally - your mod request - it hardly has any correlation to the post you claim was the cause for it either - a coincidence?
Last edited by Naskoni on 28 Sep 2006, 09:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postby Mytical » 28 Sep 2006, 09:38

Solution to the Armeggedon + IM problem. Make all 7th tier immune to armeggedon type magic. Immune, not resistant so there for IM doesn't effect it whatsoever. Let the IM buff BD and call it even :). You can also lower Armeggedon damage, use AA to help stop some of that damage, or even create a spell that would protect units from Armeggedon. Something like Divine Protection, or Dark Protection, or Protection of Earth (light, dark, summons respectfully). So that way there is a nice counter for the spell. Bring back Dragonslayer too :). So lower stacks can do some major damage to them, making it weaker. hmmm many many solutions.

Btw this was edited because I came up with some better ways.
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 28 Sep 2006, 10:00

Listen. Why do you need "arguments" at all? You can mod the things whichever way you like.
So: you don't like IM the way it is? Go ahead and change it. But don't expect you can prove that it must be done the way you want it.
Just do it.
There's no need to try and make everyone agree. Simply go ahead with something.
There are many issues you can do this way or another way. The disigners took this way, I'm fine with it, some are not, so change it. There is no need to bash each other's head to prove that his or her god is the only one.
So make a mod or make a wish list for Nival.
But don't bother trying to prove that it must be done the way you want it and everything else is crap, please.

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Unread postby Naskoni » 28 Sep 2006, 10:47

Jolly Joker wrote:Listen. Why do you need "arguments" at all? You can mod the things whichever way you like.
So: you don't like IM the way it is? Go ahead and change it. But don't expect you can prove that it must be done the way you want it.
Just do it.
There's no need to try and make everyone agree. Simply go ahead with something.
There are many issues you can do this way or another way. The disigners took this way, I'm fine with it, some are not, so change it. There is no need to bash each other's head to prove that his or her god is the only one.
So make a mod or make a wish list for Nival.
But don't bother trying to prove that it must be done the way you want it and everything else is crap, please.
A question out of curiosity? Why do you post here? You don't like our opinion or the result of this poll - ignore them altogether. You don't want to argue or you think it's pointless - then why the heck do you do precisely that? Why do you want to convince us that there is nothing wrong with IM, BDs and Armageddon and the game as a whole? Why do you act as a God appointed representative here and distribute your opinion as a fact that everybody simply has to agree with, not to mention labeling everybody disagreeing as a "whiner" and even speaking on behalf of Nival - who the heck are you to speak on their behalf in the first place and state what they had in mind and what is a bug or not, what is intended or not? And you're not the one to tell me or anybody else what to try to prove or not, and not everybody else's opinion is crap - don't generalise, you know a bit better than that :devil:

To illustrate - you attacked all opinions and everybody that disagreed with your stance, your arguments were shown to be unsatisfactory (to put it lightly) and all of a sudden you try to change the topic completely, you generalise without a single argument in sight and try to dismiss the whole thread as unnecessary - make a mod or a wish list and shut up, right? So if you can't have it your way a thread should be closed basically? You see no point of having this discussion - fine, leave it and don't look back. Bye.

As for a possible solution - I see two possibilities myself:

1. Make IM truly irresistible - allow a Warlock to penetrate any magic immunity with decreased efficiency (according to racial proficiency), even buffing, raising, whatever his own BDs BUT hurting them as well as it is now. This way you get to enjoy both sides of the medal. Why should IM be limited to Destructive Magic too? Does that make sense? Because for you to be able to buff it will be applicable for Light Magic too, no?

2. Make IM such that it does not affect your own units or give the Warlock an option to cast irresistible or plain and simple spells, i.e. such that would not penetrate immunity. Armageddon - waaaa! Well - either take the damn thing out of the game or change it, maybe make Armageddon such as to affect ALL creatures 100%, ALWAYS - immunity or not, Warlock or not, IM or not - this way the thing will NEVER be cheesed in anyway, isn't it? Problem solved?

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Unread postby Meandor » 28 Sep 2006, 11:27

Naskoni wrote:In all comments IM is seen more like a brake, a limiting factor put there to ensure that Warlock's empowered spells don't get out of hand.
And where is the problem with that?
Naskoni wrote:1. Make IM truly irresistible - allow a Warlock to penetrate any magic immunity with decreased efficiency (according to racial proficiency), even buffing, raising, whatever his own BDs BUT hurting them as well as it is now. This way you get to enjoy both sides of the medal. Why should IM be limited to Destructive Magic too? Does that make sense? Because for you to be able to buff it will be applicable for Light Magic too, no?

2. Make IM such that it does not affect your own units or give the Warlock an option to cast irresistible or plain and simple spells, i.e. such that would not penetrate immunity. Armageddon - waaaa! Well - either take the damn thing out of the game or change it, maybe make Armageddon such as to affect ALL creatures 100%, ALWAYS - immunity or not, Warlock or not, IM or not - this way the thing will NEVER be cheesed in anyway, isn't it? Problem solved?
1. Once again, warlock is master of destructive magic. He is not master of light magic or anything else.

2. Too much power to control?

It makes sense lore wise and gameplay wise so where is the problem?
...

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 28 Sep 2006, 11:37

I don't attack OPINIONS.
I attack opinions that come in the guise of facts. It is not a "fact" that IM is "bugged". It's a fact that some people or even the majority voting here don't LIKE it for whatever the reason. I wouldn't dream to argue against anyone not LIKING something.
I won't argue against people saying, I would like this or that, simply because I don't like it the way it is now.
But this isn't the case. You and some others try (in vain) to PROVE FOR FACT that there is something seriously wrong with IM, that the game MUST be changed here. YOU are the one trying to prove that something is wrong, not me. But that you cannot. Because your arguments are not valid in any general way. They may be true for you, but they are not true like some law of nature (as well as mine, btw.).
So if you wouldn't insist on IM SUCKS AND MUST BE CHANGED AS A MATTER OF FACT, I wouldn't be arguing.

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Unread postby Naskoni » 28 Sep 2006, 11:41

Meandor wrote:
Naskoni wrote:In all comments IM is seen more like a brake, a limiting factor put there to ensure that Warlock's empowered spells don't get out of hand.
And where is the problem with that?
Erm, your racial, the one supposed to be beneficial for you, you know, is actually a preventative measure that is put in place to limit you, rather than support you? Mmmm, no - nothing wrong with it, no problem... ;|
Meandor wrote:
Naskoni wrote:1. Make IM truly irresistible - allow a Warlock to penetrate any magic immunity with decreased efficiency (according to racial proficiency), even buffing, raising, whatever his own BDs BUT hurting them as well as it is now. This way you get to enjoy both sides of the medal. Why should IM be limited to Destructive Magic too? Does that make sense? Because for you to be able to buff it will be applicable for Light Magic too, no?

2. Make IM such that it does not affect your own units or give the Warlock an option to cast irresistible or plain and simple spells, i.e. such that would not penetrate immunity. Armageddon - waaaa! Well - either take the damn thing out of the game or change it, maybe make Armageddon such as to affect ALL creatures 100%, ALWAYS - immunity or not, Warlock or not, IM or not - this way the thing will NEVER be cheesed in anyway, isn't it? Problem solved?
1. Once again, warlock is master of destructive magic. He is not master of light magic or anything else.

2. Too much power to control?

It makes sense lore wise and gameplay wise so where is the problem?
Actually IM does not explicitly (implicitly - sure) state this and you are still to provide a satisfactory explanation why is IM enforced - how come you don't have a choice not to cast the spells as irresistible? How come you can penetrate a creature's immunity just to hurt them (lore? where?) and how come it is not selective, but so many other abilities in the game are? Keep in mind the general idea is that since this is your racial you should profit from investing in it, explicitly, not getting constrained or put at a disadvantage of any sort.

Too much power to control - where? That you will be allowed to rain Meteor Shower on your BDs without hurting them but all the enemies around the stack? Hell, isn't that what their immunity is there for? You cannot haste them, boost them, raise them but you can harm them? What good is their ability to you then? What do you pay such resources for to get them? What about making Armageddon 100% irresistible magic irrespectively who casts it - isn't this going to solve all the abuse?

Additionally - answer me this - if you are a Warlock and you have the choice of having IM negated (only ED bonuses remain) - you won't harm enemy immune creatures but you won't harm your own BDs either or you have IM just as it is now - which option would you take - screw balance and concern for fair play - be selfish and think about your own Warlock-ish good - which option is more beneficial to you overall?

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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 28 Sep 2006, 12:38

Moderator, a question? Is it permissible to call this way to argue utterly polemic, warping and malevolent without the thread being closed
Let's just say that certain frequenters of this thread are being watched, and that the thread is allowed to keep open because most of it actually is a valid discussion of it's topic. If that changes, so that it drifts off-topic or degenerates into a lot of name-calling, it'll be closed.
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 28 Sep 2006, 13:19

These are my thoughts on the issue of irresistible magic.

I think it's a nice concept and allows for interesting things like being able to cast chain lightning on inferno units. I think it's great that it also affects your black dragons, after all it is irresistible.

I feel that you should be able to partially buff your dragons also...of course since warlocks don't get light magic the net effect wouldn't be that helpful. But the way it is now, there is a complete immunity to helpful spells, which goes against the definition of 'irresistible'.

I think that comparison with other racial specials is not necessary...there is no need for them all to be 'balanced' or 'similar'.

The way the game is currently the dungeon is a very playable faction and I prefer that to having the black dragon/armageddon strategy happening all the time.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 28 Sep 2006, 13:34

PhoenixReborn wrote: I think it's a nice concept and allows for interesting things like being able to cast chain lightning on inferno units. I think it's great that it also affects your black dragons, after all it is irresistible.
One would think the warlock would be able to turn it on and off or something, i mean it's not exactly some normal effect of being a Dark Elf, is it?

And seeing as without the Pendant of Mastery the failure chance of a buff spell is about 50/50 it shouldn't be too imbalancing to allow BD buffing. And they could just make Dispel work on everything.

Also, seeing as the enemy can buff his own troops the BD's immunity isn't much of an advantage if he can't resist any of your own dmg spells, is it.
.there is no need for them all to be 'balanced'
Huh?! I don't really play MP, but i think that balance should be important anyway, even if only for the MP guys sake.
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Unread postby Meandor » 28 Sep 2006, 13:39

ThunderTitan wrote: Huh?! I don't really play MP, but i think that balance should be important anyway, even if only for the MP guys sake.
Probably he meant being balanced towards other racial skills.
Naskoni wrote:Erm, your racial, the one supposed to be beneficial for you, you know, is actually a preventative measure that is put in place to limit you, rather than support you? Mmmm, no - nothing wrong with it, no problem... dontknow
It helps you and also forbids cheap tactics. So yes, there is nothing wrong with it.
...

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Unread postby Naskoni » 28 Sep 2006, 13:42

ThunderTitan wrote: And seeing as without the Pendant of Mastery the failure chance of a buff spell is about 50/50 it shouldn't be too imbalancing to allow BD buffing. And they could just make Dispel work on everything.

Mmmm, no - it will be 50% resistance, i.e. the spell will always take effect but only 50% of it - you will raise half the HP you would otherwise raise on a non immune creature, or they will get the effect, but only for half the duration, etc. Logic is - at the moment you hit them every time, but with reduced efficiency - there is no chance whatsoever that you might save yourself from IM - it just does less damage though. How much exactly depends on the proficiency of IM.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 28 Sep 2006, 13:46

Naskoni wrote: Mmmm, no - it will be 50% resistance, i.e. the spell will always take effect but only 50% of it - you will raise half the HP you would otherwise raise on a non immune creature, or they will get the effect, but only for half the duration, etc.
This is how it works on Golems?
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Unread postby Shauku » 28 Sep 2006, 13:46

ThunderTitan wrote:
Also, seeing as the enemy can buff his own troops the BD's immunity isn't much of an advantage if he can't resist any of your own dmg spells, is it.
So it isn't an advantage to resist Druid Elders Lighting? A Wizards Meteor Shower? A Matriarchs Confusion? Demon Lords Fireball with Master of Fire ability (-50% defence reduction)? A Necromancers Puppet Master?

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 28 Sep 2006, 14:05

Shauku wrote: So it isn't an advantage to resist Druid Elders Lighting? A Wizards Meteor Shower? A Matriarchs Confusion? Demon Lords Fireball with Master of Fire ability (-50% defence reduction)? A Necromancers Puppet Master?
Ups, thinking about H3... my bad.
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Unread postby Naskoni » 28 Sep 2006, 14:05

ThunderTitan wrote:
Naskoni wrote: Mmmm, no - it will be 50% resistance, i.e. the spell will always take effect but only 50% of it - you will raise half the HP you would otherwise raise on a non immune creature, or they will get the effect, but only for half the duration, etc.
This is how it works on Golems?
To begin with - I don't play with Academy, only against it, but to the best of my knowledge the spells you can cast on golems (as they are mechanical - not everything applies), and I mean buff spells when you play with them, are not resisted at all and the full effect applies. Their resistance applies to enemy harmful spells only.

I hope someone more knowledgeable than me with Academy will correct me if that is wrong.

I can say for sure that I have never missed with a Warlock's spell - you always hit, only with reduced efficiency.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 28 Sep 2006, 14:08

Naskoni wrote: I can say for sure that I have never missed with a Warlock's spell - you always hit, only with reduced efficiency.
Dmg spells or any spells?
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Unread postby Naskoni » 28 Sep 2006, 14:14

ThunderTitan wrote:
Naskoni wrote: I can say for sure that I have never missed with a Warlock's spell - you always hit, only with reduced efficiency.
Dmg spells or any spells?
Well, IM applies to damage spells only, so obviously only such. If it applied to other types you would have been able to boost your BDs already ;)


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