Irresistible magic

[sylvanllewelyn]

We don't know what the designers logically had in mind when they have decided that IM only works with destructive magic. The whole point is that IM only applies to destructive magic, and that school has no bluffs or curses.

[DaemianLucifer]

Raise Dead is tied to Necromancers & undead creatures, not to Necromancy. Necromancy is not affected by Rise Dead, for god´s sake!

Necromancy is necros racial,irresistable magic is warlocks racial.Now you are saying that because of a single spell,the whole racial has to suffer.Thats why I said make necromancy suffer because RD was overpowered.But did they nerf necromancy or just the spell?

When I say skeletons I mean melee skeletons and skeleton archers of course, and you knew it.

That has absolutelly nothing to do with his comment.Though,to give you credit,his comment was just as lame.

That is true only for chatty noobs, Raise Dead is as important as Battle Frenzy or Vitality, but not a must. Anyway if you think that Raise Dead and Necromancy is what makes a necromancer, those are 2 different things that necromancers have, and each one has its different effect & mechanics.

Riiiight!Guess what,destruction magic and irresistable magic are also 2 different things that warlocks have.Yes,I know its hard to believe,but those two things have different effect & mechanics.You dont believe me?Well one is focusted on casting spells,and the other is focused on piercing creatures immunities.And the only thing they have in common is that they can be combined(just as necromancy and raise dead)in order to make your warlock more effective.But that combination is important only gor chatty noobs,so dont pay any attention to it.

Dangerous to them? Who is stupid enough to cast fireball or meteor shower on his own black dragons? ... It is supposed that you have to cast destructive spells on the enemy´s resistant creatures... Oh, and the really warlock´s racial is Elemental Chains, Irresistible Magic is like Counter Strike for Haven (OMG!!! 2 racials!! It is so unfair!! I think I´m gonna cry!!).

Hmm...Lets see...Your opponent has three scatered stacks.You can cast chain lightning,but you will hurt your dragons doing that.However,you can cast any other spell and kill just one enemy stack.Or,your dragons get surrounded,and instead of castin meteor shower and hitting just the enemy(like you would do if your minotaurs were attacked and you cast circle of winter),you can hit both enemies with a single spell only if you hit your dragons too.

Hey,how come mass slow affects only the enemy?That makes inferno overpowered.Its such a cheap tactics to slow your opponent completelly and then pound him with your archers.Lets make gating remove slow from your enemy then.Ressurection combined with titans?Overpowered I tell ya!Lets make artificier so that creatures with artifacts cannot be resurrected.

Oh,and just so you know,elemental chains are the secondary effect of irresistable magic and not the other way round.It seems its you who should go back and play the game a bit more.

[Jolly Joker]

As you said it so many times before,this is not HIII.The creatures have immunities towards ellements and not schools now.And warlock pierces all immunities,not just earth one,or water ones,or universal ones.

Irrelevant. We are talking about a SKILL here, not creature immunities. And there are lots of skills centered around effects in connection with a certain school of magic. The SKILL weakens an immunity against a school because the SKILLS are about magic schools, not magic elements. The skill simply says, all Destructive Magic spells deal damage of x% no matter the immunities of the creatures (and no matter the element of the spell). It's the same than saying, all spells of the Darm Magic school cost only half or all Destructive Magic spells can be empowered.

[Adicto]

Riiiight!Guess what,destruction magic and irresistable magic are also 2 different things that warlocks have.Yes,I know its hard to believe,but those two things have different effect & mechanics.You dont believe me?Well one is focusted on casting spells,and the other is focused on piercing creatures immunities.And the only thing they have in common is that they can be combined(just as necromancy and raise dead)in order to make your warlock more effective.But that combination is important only gor chatty noobs,so dont pay any attention to it.

DaemianLucifer, if you continue with this kind of silly arguments I´m going to start thinking that you have serious understanding problems. I mean, c´mon... this last argument is so silly that almost seems to be written by a supernatural silly being.

I´m going to explain it to you for last time: Irresistible Magic affects Destructive Magic, only destructive spells. Irresistible Magic is useless if you don´t cast destructive spells on resistant creatures like black dragons. Necromancy affects your number of skeletons (basic skeletons or upgraded ones), but nothing more. Raise Dead has the same effect and power regardless of Necromancy level, etc.

Oh,and just so you know,elemental chains are the secondary effect of irresistable magic and not the other way round.It seems its you who should go back and play the game a bit more.

Sorry but you are wrong. Read the manual and play the game, you will see what is the most important special.

bla bla bla my dragons get surounded bla bla bla mass slow is overpowered

Your dragons get surrounded? play better. I don´t cry "the world is unfair!! I should be the best without any effort!!" when my lichs get surrounded the 90% of the time. Mass Slow overpowered? it can be annulled with basic ligth magic and master of wrath, no need of spell power.

[ThunderTitan]

Raise Dead has the same effect and power regardless of Necromancy level, etc.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it, unless it affects a bunch of numbers it's not tied to it at all.

Read the manual and play the game, you will see what is the most important special.

Most ppl around here seem to think Dungeon relies more on spells then creatures.

[Gaidal Cain]

So why should it get even stronger? If you rely on cheap tactics(BD and armageddon, rush in with BD and cast meteor shower on everything and so on) thats your problem, it`s great thing that game prevents such cheapt tactics from using.

Hmm. Pray tell then, how would you use Armageddon in a "non-cheap" manner? The problem right now, as I see it, is that Armageddon is a useless spell, by and large. You could use it to make sure your enemy only wins a pyrrhic victory, but that's about it. If you wan't "non-cheap" tactics, you should advocate the removal of armageddon, since the only thing it's useful for is by taking a resistant creature and then casting it as much as you can.

We HAD the four elemental schools in H3. [...] However, the immunities, for eaxmple of the Gold Dragon, were actually against a SCHOOL not against an element: They were immune against Earth MAGIC.

You should go back and play H3 again before debating it. The only school specific immunities were the ones that Efreet, Fire elementals and Firebirds (and their upgrades) had against fire magic. Besides, H3 is largely irrelevant, as the only thing similar to IM was the Orb of Vulnerability, and it affected all units (well, almost. There were an interesting bug associated with it...).

[Jolly Joker]

Right. Efreets were immune against Fire Magic, Gold Dragons were immune against everything except level 5 spells.
But that doesn't change anything concerning the point here. We are talking about a skill (Irresistable Magic) influencing the workings of another school of magic and that's nothing illogical or unusual. As I said, Empowered spells works for Destructive Magic only as well; you could ask why it doesn't work for Decay or Curse of the Netherworld, but why should you? It doesn't. Period. IM is the same. It simply removes Immunities against all spells out of the School of Destructive Magic which is completely logical, no matter how you try to deter from the fact.

In other wors: the point it wouldn't be logical or something is simply not existant.

[mr.hackcrag]

So why should it get even stronger? If you rely on cheap tactics(BD and armageddon, rush in with BD and cast meteor shower on everything and so on) thats your problem, it`s great thing that game prevents such cheapt tactics from using.

Hmm. Pray tell then, how would you use Armageddon in a "non-cheap" manner? The problem right now, as I see it, is that Armageddon is a useless spell, by and large. You could use it to make sure your enemy only wins a pyrrhic victory, but that's about it. If you wan't "non-cheap" tactics, you should advocate the removal of armageddon, since the only thing it's useful for is by taking a resistant creature and then casting it as much as you can.

I have to say that armageddon is an extremely cheap spell. I can't speak for H5, but I just fought a battle in H3 and I killed 48 chaos hydras, 58 wyverns, 69 gorgons, 364 serpent flies, and etc. using armageddon and all I had in my army was 8 effreet sultans. There are other times where I killed several times this amount of units using armageddon. They really need to take this spell out of the game or change the way it works.

[Naskoni]

Right. Efreets were immune against Fire Magic, Gold Dragons were immune against everything except level 5 spells.
But that doesn't change anything concerning the point here. We are talking about a skill (Irresistable Magic) influencing the workings of another school of magic and that's nothing illogical or unusual. As I said, Empowered spells works for Destructive Magic only as well; you could ask why it doesn't work for Decay or Curse of the Netherworld, but why should you? It doesn't. Period. IM is the same. It simply removes Immunities against all spells out of the School of Destructive Magic which is completely logical, no matter how you try to deter from the fact.

In other wors: the point it wouldn't be logical or something is simply not existant.

Mod note:ad hominems removed. Stop with them. Had it not been for the fact that some people actually try to discuss the matter at hand, this thread would be closed. GC

Let me ask you people something - which is the single most affected creature, which one has the most to lose because of it, in this game when it comes to Irresistible Magic as it is done at the moment? Seriously and when you answer my question tell me what possible reason could the designers have had to make such a deliberate (we can only assume it was such) design choice.

Another thing to consider - why should you invest into your own damn racial if it negates, for you, the ONLY damn advantage your best creature has? If you are not facing immune or highly resistant creatures then why on earth would you want to waste your hero's levelling on improving IM? Honestly - why? So you can screw better your most expensive unit? Of course you couldn't use your racial for anything but harming your own units, which honestly makes a LOT of sense to me... NOT!

[Jolly Joker]

Sorry, but I'm NOT impressed - yet again.
It's a rather pathetic post - yet again.
How come they remind me of those Necro thing - that whining thread about how weak Necro was, nerfed this, nerfed that, all so weak.
Now this.
So you HAVE Armageddon and, eeek, BD's will take damage from it, IF you start casting it. So casting Dracogeddon went from being a no-brainer to, wait a second here, let's think a bit... That you can waste everyone else with up to nine other lucky, empowered spells in a way that no other Heroes game ever allowed is of course completely irrevelant.
And about logic: luckily enough we are not talking about your or my logic here, we are taling about GAME logic here. and they way its works is completely within that. And before you start whining about what game logic or something like that: If it doesn't suit you: Just. Stop. Playing. It.

Of course they will close this thread again. Just because you cannot hold your water and always start your posts with some completely unnecessary, useless and redundant paragraph or three about how everything I say is utter crap.
It get's kind of really annoying that you are unable to discuss things in an unpersonal way - hinting at some social deficiency, maybe looking for the attention you didn't get as a child, whatever. But fact is, if they close yet another thread because of this behaviour I'm going to ask the mods to ban either one of us permanently. And I don't even care who they ban. They might even ban both.

[ThunderTitan]

That you can waste everyone else with up to nine other lucky, empowered spells in a way that no other Heroes game ever allowed is of course completely irrevelant.

Hey, you guys started the whole "without it Armageddon is overpowered" thing.

[Sir_Toejam]

so since it seems the concern is really that BD's are too strong, and so can be used to spam armageddon, why not make BD's a bit weaker?

i mean, it's obvious dungeon is supposed to be a magic using faction, yes?

so maybe take the hps of the BD's down by 20%?

would that balance out the ability to be able to cast buffs on them, if using a warlock?

or removing the negatives for IM?

(but not both, say)

so they would have say, 190 hps instead of 240, and shadow drags would have say, 170 instead of 200.

leave everything else the same, including the cost.

that would make them easier to take out in a case where somebody is trying the "dracogeddon" strategy so many here seem so worried about, yes?

[Gaidal Cain]

So casting Dracogeddon went from being a no-brainer to, wait a second here, let's think a bit...

You never finished that sentence, so I'll do it for you: something noone in their right mind would ever do with a warlock. Which means that the only faction which stood a good chance to do it from the start can't do it with their native heroes. If that's what Nival wants, why include Armageddon from the start?

[Jolly Joker]

Pardon? You will do it immediately if you gain. You gain, when your opponent loses significantly more than you. Example:
Your Haven opponent comes with 300 Conscripts, 150 Archers, 100 Squires, 60 Griffins, 30 Insquisitors, 20 Paladins and 10 Archangels.
You go in with 8 Black Dragons. Your first Armageddon casting does, well let's say 1000 damage. This kills about half of the opposing army and 2 of your Black Dragons. The next Armageddon will basically kill the opposing army, leaving some rabble.
Of course you still have the rest of your army in reserve.
No one in their right mind. Yeah, sure.

[Naskoni]

Jelly - you think you cannot spam Dracogeddon now? Why do you assume a spammer would be dumb enough(t) to raise IM to expert, hmmm? Why not leave it at 20% and get 10 Black Dragons and spam the living #$%@ out of the enemy, retreat, rinse, repeat? You think the half-baked way IM is at the moment will prevent somebody abusing the Cheese? And all the fireworks and ballistic shootouts are clearly because of Armageddon, not IM, nor BDs, not anything - all you speak of is Armageddon. Does that tell you something? Any indication by now what is the problematic link here?

[DaemianLucifer]

Irrelevant. We are talking about a SKILL here, not creature immunities. And there are lots of skills centered around effects in connection with a certain school of magic. The SKILL weakens an immunity against a school because the SKILLS are about magic schools, not magic elements. The skill simply says, all Destructive Magic spells deal damage of x% no matter the immunities of the creatures (and no matter the element of the spell). It's the same than saying, all spells of the Darm Magic school cost only half or all Destructive Magic spells can be empowered.

Very relevant,because:

Necromancy works,no matter what skills you have.Training works,no matter what skills you have.Gating works,no matter what skills you have.Avenger works,no matter what skills you have.Artificier works,no matter what skills you have.Irresistable magic has just its secondary effect if you have no destruction magic.So,its not just the only racial that can be harmful to you,it is also the only racial that works corectly only with one out of 12 skills.

Sorry but you are wrong. Read the manual and play the game, you will see what is the most important special.

The skill is called irresistable magic.Not elemental chains,but irresistable magic.Elemental chains is the secondary effect,no matter that the buildings boost it.

Your dragons get surrounded? play better. I don´t cry "the world is unfair!! I should be the best without any effort!!" when my lichs get surrounded the 90% of the time. Mass Slow overpowered? it can be annulled with basic ligth magic and master of wrath, no need of spell power.

Your dragons get surrounded? play better. = If you want higher difficulty,play without saves.Constructive indeed.Its basic tactics to surround the dragons when attacking them with a multitude of creatures.No one in their right mind would form a line in front of them.Oh,and liches can be raised,so I dont cry either even if I loose the whole stack,cause I know Ill raise them anyway.

Oh,and who says that BDs wouldnt be cleansable?In HIV you could dispel effects from immune heroes as well.Although,knowing nivals attitude towards HIV,I think they would make them uncleansable.

Pardon? You will do it immediately if you gain. You gain, when your opponent loses significantly more than you. Example:
Your Haven opponent comes with 300 Conscripts, 150 Archers, 100 Squires, 60 Griffins, 30 Insquisitors, 20 Paladins and 10 Archangels.
You go in with 8 Black Dragons. Your first Armageddon casting does, well let's say 1000 damage. This kills about half of the opposing army and 2 of your Black Dragons. The next Armageddon will basically kill the opposing army, leaving some rabble.
Of course you still have the rest of your army in reserve.
No one in their right mind. Yeah, sure.

Ammm...There would be no second armagedon.8 blackies have no chance against such an army,especially if you kill two of them.

And will you stop with the whole dragogedon thing?You have 10 different spells in the destruction school.If one of them is overpowered that means just it needs nerfing,not the whole school,and certainly not the whole racial skill.

[Jolly Joker]

Oh, sure, Nasski. You will easily avoid each higher level of IM because you have absolutely no need for the associated abilities, not to mention the increased elemental chain bonus - just to make sure that IF you get Armageddon you can take some Black Dragons and cast Armageddon onto the opponent without your Dragons. If that is so, go ahead and play that way. Where's the problem?
@DL, seriously, you should know when you are flogging a dead horse and this horse already stinks.

[Gaidal Cain]

You go in with 8 Black Dragons. Your first Armageddon casting does, well let's say 1000 damage. This kills about half of the opposing army and 2 of your Black Dragons. The next Armageddon will basically kill the opposing army, leaving some rabble.

Yeah, I could do that. Or I could go in with my full army, cast Meteor Shower, and do somewhat less damage to the enemy and none to myself. If I only have Advanced Destruction, I will be doing the same basic damage. As DL pointed out, unless you can take out the whole enemy army in one go, Armageddon is a very risky tactic, since you only have your black dragons left to fight with

[Meandor]

If you can get BD's i doubt getting Destr Magic spells will be hard.

What about skills?

Actually yes,because they cannot pierce the immunity to cast any other spell,even the words,though those two do damage.Actually Im not sure about the words and wasp swarm.Can someone tell me if it works with these?And how about mines?

Warlock warlock warlock... warlock. Let`s look at the heroes lore wise for a second. Wizard is supposed to be wise magician, what a surprise he is wise magician in the game Knight is, well, knight so he should lack in SP and knowledge and again what a surprise he lacks in those stats. And here we have a warlock, in majority of the F games i had played(i had played a lot of them) warlocks were powerfull and evil magicians blasting stuff with their magic. In other words masters of destruction. So why in the hell master of destruction should cast some positive spells? Second thing, he has mastered his prefered magic so much that he can even blast things which others magicians couldn`t scratch with magic. In other words warlock is master of destructive magic and not master of light magic or dark magic or summoner. If you fail to see here logic you either are too proud to accept that you are wrong or just fail at some things...

Hmm...Lets see...Your opponent has three scatered stacks.You can cast chain lightning,but you will hurt your dragons doing that.However,you can cast any other spell and kill just one enemy stack.Or,your dragons get surrounded,and instead of castin meteor shower and hitting just the enemy(like you would do if your minotaurs were attacked and you cast circle of winter),you can hit both enemies with a single spell only if you hit your dragons too.

In such situations you`ll think "is it worth?". And yes, using area/mass spells without thinking is cheap and should be prevented.

Hey,how come mass slow affects only the enemy?That makes inferno overpowered.Its such a cheap tactics to slow your opponent completelly and then pound him with your archers.Lets make gating remove slow from your enemy then.Ressurection combined with titans?Overpowered I tell ya!Lets make artificier so that creatures with artifacts cannot be resurrected.

Mass slow? What about mass haste? Ressurection? What about blasting with spell? All these spells have counter, while armageddon and others area spells don`t- there is no mass ressurection.

Hmm. Pray tell then, how would you use Armageddon in a "non-cheap" manner? The problem right now, as I see it, is that Armageddon is a useless spell, by and large. You could use it to make sure your enemy only wins a pyrrhic victory, but that's about it. If you wan't "non-cheap" tactics, you should advocate the removal of armageddon, since the only thing it's useful for is by taking a resistant creature and then casting it as much as you can.

IT`s almost fine now, because now you have to think will you loose more units or enemy will? Will it be worth?

Ammm...There would be no second armagedon.8 blackies have no chance against such an army,especially if you kill two of them.

You realise that haven army also will be affected by armageddon?

And will you stop with the whole dragogedon thing?You have 10 different spells in the destruction school.If one of them is overpowered that means just it needs nerfing,not the whole school,and certainly not the whole racial skill.

All area spells can be abused like that, if it isn`t as noticable that doesn`t mean there is no problem.

[DaemianLucifer]

@DL, seriously, you should know when you are flogging a dead horse and this horse already stinks.

Indeed:

Should iresistible magic affect your own creatures?
yes
28% [ 14 ]
no
72% [ 36 ]