Irresistible magic

[ThunderTitan]

2) Necromancy has nothing to do with Raise Dead. Irresistible Magic, Armageddon and black dragons are completely related to each other.

2)Thats the dumbest statement Ive read since JJ straightened up.

QFT.

Seriously, Raise Dead is more tied to Necromancy then Armageddon to Irresistible Magic.

[Adicto]

2) Necromancy has nothing to do with Raise Dead. Irresistible Magic, Armageddon and black dragons are completely related to each other.

2)Thats the dumbest statement Ive read since JJ straightened up.

QFT.

Seriously, Raise Dead is more tied to Necromancy then Armageddon to Irresistible Magic.

What? Necromancy doesn´t affect the efficiency of Raise Dead spell, it only raises skeletons from killed monsters. Irresistible Magic affect the efficiency of armageddon spell considerably, making your own resistant troops vulnerable(or not, if it is finally changed) to it.

If you cast Raise Dead (1.2 Raise Dead) with 20 sp and expert summoning magic you can raise 840 HP = 168 skeleton archers... or 15 archlichs, 8 wraiths, 24 vampire lords, etc, instead of skeleton a. So if you think that Raise Dead is more tied to Necromancy than Irresistible Magic to Armageddon only because you can raise your killed eskeleton archers, as you can see raise archlichs, wraiths or vampire lords (remember: necromancy only raises skeletons) is far better.

Christ... I have to explain the game mechanics and stupidly obvious answers over and over again like if this were some kind of HoMM school.

[ThunderTitan]

remember: necromancy only raises skeletons

Eternal Servitude anyone?!

Raise Dead + Necromancy is what makes the Necromancer. But there are only a few magic ressistant creatures.

[Naskoni]

Eternal Servitude anyone?!

Moot point and you know it - the talk was about Raise Dead - don't change the subject

Raise Dead is in many ways a specific Necro spell but it is not necessarily tied with Necromancy, just the Undead as a whole IMHO. This thread is about Irrestistible Magic though so this line of arguments is better reserved for another one...

[ThunderTitan]

Moot point and you know it - the talk was about Raise Dead - don't change the subject

Ahem:

"as you can see raise archlichs, wraiths or vampire lords (remember: necromancy only raises skeletons) is far better. "

[Jolly Joker]

Another question: has Irresistable Magic has been tested thoroughly? The way I see this skill (and to make it easier with percentages) expert IM will simply cut all magic Resistancies into half - for Destructive spells, that is. So a Steel Golem won't be 75% proof, but 37.5% proof (of course there are other workings possible, but this is how I think it is intended to work).
Does someone know further about what happens when Magival Immunity is cast? Again this SHOULD work the way that expert IM makes it a 50% protection only.
This would mean, there is no way to guard against a Warlock doing damage to otherwise resistant creatures.
This is a considerable change: in the past you could stall things with Anti-Magic completely.
So the bottom line is that there is no defense against the Destructive Magic of the Warlock - but that the BDs must be careful not to suffer colateral damage.
Again the question, what would be wrong with that?

[Idleness2]

Yeah i think its actually a lot more than half, for simply resistance, but i dont know how immunity and resistence work really...I dont know, i notice that its a decent loss of damage, when casting on creatures with natural immunits, like say emplosion on an emerald dragon, but not enough of a loss to make it wasted...but if its a hero using the magic resistence skills, the difference is pretty negligable...I thinks its only 40% for basic irresistable, and i rmeember if u get pendant of mastery and ultimate then its 75%

[ThunderTitan]

The values are 20%, 40%, 50% and 75% if you have the pendant.

[Meandor]

...because magic is the only way to kill BDs, right? Right? And Harm Touch would still screw any positive buffs too wink Plus the racial will decrease the efficiency of the buffs, no?

...
You can buff dragons with spells, but your enemy can`t hurt them with spells. Does it sound logical and balanced? It might be balanced if BD was weak creature, but unfortunately it isn`t. Harm touch? OMG i`ll kill 1 BD with one race. Decrease in efficiency? Less is always better than nothing.

But if you do think armagedon is to powerfull,then nerf the spell itself,and not the whole race(which,btw,doesnt revolve only around that single spell).When PF was powerfull,why wasnt the whole academy nerfed and had its racial broken?When raise dead was overpowered,why wasnt necromancy broken?The fact is that dungeons racial is the only racial that can harm you as well as the enemy.

I simply can`t understand how whole race or even whole destructive magic is nerfed due to that. Dungeon with warlock is already top, or close to it, town. So why should it get even stronger? If you rely on cheap tactics(BD and armageddon, rush in with BD and cast meteor shower on everything and so on) thats your problem, it`s great thing that game prevents such cheapt tactics from using. But you can do such things with other heroes? No you can`t, you`ll have lower sp, no warlock luck, no empowered spells and you`ll have harder time learning high level destruction spells. In other words you`ll might be aviable to cast armageddon with other hero but damage won`t be high enough.

Ahem:

So he wrote "Skeletons" instead of "skeletons and skeleton archers"? Thats ground breaking argument.

[Naskoni]

...because magic is the only way to kill BDs, right? Right? And Harm Touch would still screw any positive buffs too wink Plus the racial will decrease the efficiency of the buffs, no?

...
You can buff dragons with spells, but your enemy can`t hurt them with spells. Does it sound logical and balanced? It might be balanced if BD was weak creature, but unfortunately it isn`t. Harm touch? OMG i`ll kill 1 BD with one race. Decrease in efficiency? Less is always better than nothing.

Please do bother yourself with (re)reading my arguments - I won't rewrite everything just for you. You won't be able to hurt BDs with spells because you don't get the Warlock's racial - it sounds damn logical to me, that's why it's their race special so you don't get it. Balanced? At 50% efficiency at expert IM - so you get only half the buff and waste a hero turn which you could have used to bomb the enemy with 150% efficiency - yes, it seems balanced to me. And BDs are strong - no kidding, but they are not exactly easy to get nor are exactly very cheap, are they? So balanced again? Yes - it seems so to me.

And Harm Touch would kill only 1 dragon but would eliminate all buffs from the whole stack as well - a point that it can be done, by Necro at least

If you think Dungeon is overpowered - fine, just don't use that as an argument why this aspect should be left in its half-baked current state, ok? If the whole faction is too strong there are other ways to deal with it - half-boosted BDs will not change much. I'd actually prefer enemy Warlocks to half-boost their BDs instead of raining a 150% efficient Meteor Shower on half of my army, thank you very much...

Ahem:

So he wrote "Skeletons" instead of "skeletons and skeleton archers"? Thats ground breaking argument.

That quote is not mine - I have no idea why he quoted it for me...

[DaemianLucifer]

@Adicto
Necromancer is the only race that can raise his creatures permanently,thus he is very tied with the spell.Also,every necromancer gets RD now,and I dont see every warlock gain armagedon.So which one has stronger ties again?

...
You can buff dragons with spells, but your enemy can`t hurt them with spells. Does it sound logical and balanced? It might be balanced if BD was weak creature, but unfortunately it isn`t. Harm touch? OMG i`ll kill 1 BD with one race. Decrease in efficiency? Less is always better than nothing.

It makes as much sense as you being able to damage your units,but not buff them.Either remove the damage from BDs,or make them buffable,I dont care.And BDs come as 3rd or 4th creature among top tiers.With this hinderance in its immunity,it comes even lower.

I simply can`t understand how whole race or even whole destructive magic is nerfed due to that.

Because its special is broken.God!Do I have to draw this to you people?!Warlock is the only race that has a racial ability that is dangerous to them.It became the weakest of all racials.

Dungeon with warlock is already top, or close to it, town. So why should it get even stronger? If you rely on cheap tactics(BD and armageddon, rush in with BD and cast meteor shower on everything and so on) thats your problem, it`s great thing that game prevents such cheapt tactics from using. But you can do such things with other heroes? No you can`t, you`ll have lower sp, no warlock luck, no empowered spells and you`ll have harder time learning high level destruction spells. In other words you`ll might be aviable to cast armageddon with other hero but damage won`t be high enough.

And again cheap...I really cant see how so much money and resources is cheap,but nevermind.And I used BDs in 2,maybe 3 battles.Uuuuh!Such a strong and usefull creature.So Im not for the change of irresistable magic because of any "cheap" tactics,but because I find it unfair for warlock to be the only race with a broken special.

@JJ
Someone already said that magical immunity is being pierced by it.And I dont know how it works,but when the unicorns aura triggered,they would receive half damage and full effect of master of storms/ice.Maybe its like that for golems too.

[ThunderTitan]

So he wrote "Skeletons" instead of "skeletons and skeleton archers"? Thats ground breaking argument.

No, that's not what i said... jeez! Eternal Servitude is not the one with the Archers, Raise Archers is.

And the thing is that the game only prevents warlock from doing that. And the fact that the others don't do it as well doesn't make the tactic less cheap. Dmg won't be high enough?! Pls, war luck doesn't always work, and empowered spells give +50% dmg at double mana cost, and the Warlock has low Knldg. I doubt the dmg will be that much bigger at low enough lvls to make sure the other guy doesn't have enough troops to kill your dragons fast.

you`ll have harder time learning high level destruction spells.

If you can get BD's i doubt getting Destr Magic spells will be hard.

[Meandor]

At 50% efficiency at expert IM - so you get only half the buff and waste a hero turn which you could have used to bomb the enemy with 150% efficiency - yes, it seems balanced to me.

Depends on situation. Sometimes it might be better to raise a couple of BDs than blasting your opponent.

If you think Dungeon is overpowered - fine, just don't use that as an argument why this aspect should be left in its half-baked current state, ok?

Matter of opinion, i think it`s baked and makes sense gameplay wise and lore wise while you think it`s half-baked.

[Jolly Joker]

I still fail to see the logic there, Naskoni. Gargoyles are immune against Lightning, their upgrades aditionally against Fire and Water. Is it illogical that they are vulnerable against Earth? No.
Warlocks have the ability to make everyone vulnerable against Destructive spells. Illogical? No. They simply lessen the immunity against one kind of magic. Please remember that we have 4 schools of Magic now, and the Warlock's ability simply reduces all-over immunity against one of them. Why must they do it against all of them? There are many immunities or resistancies or such for only one school or element.

[DaemianLucifer]

Warlocks have the ability to make everyone vulnerable against Destructive spells. Illogical?

Actually yes,because they cannot pierce the immunity to cast any other spell,even the words,though those two do damage.Actually Im not sure about the words and wasp swarm.Can someone tell me if it works with these?And how about mines?

And it really is weird to have JJ post the only sensible arguments and questiens.Its freightening

[ThunderTitan]

Please remember that we have 4 schools of Magic now

As opposed to the 4 schools in H3?! Or what?

And could we stop with the Armageddon arguments, this is about the whole Destructive school, not just that one spell. Like i said, you could just make Armageddon work on BD's anyway, and remove the rest.

[Jolly Joker]

1) For the immunity against a school.
We HAD the four elemental schools in H3. No one had anything against it that there were (are) immunities against them. It was probably because the idea of lemental schools was a fitting one. However, the immunities, for eaxmple of the Gold Dragon, were actually against a SCHOOL not against an element: They were immune against Earth MAGIC. This difference was irrelevant in H3, though.
Now we have other schools; while creatures have retained ELEMENTAL immunities mostly, there are some abilities that effect the spells of a certain school, making them cheaper, more effective and so on.
So my point is, that it's nothing illogical in having a skill (like Destructive Magic or Summoning Magic that deals with one school of magic exclusively) that has a certain effect on things based around a SCHOOL of Magic: Destructive. Empowered spells work for Destructive spells only as well, mind you; there is no empowered Decay, for example.
You could say, that Warlocks have a special affinity for a certain school of magic, which is everything else than illogical.
2) Warlock on Warlock. That's an interesting concept. Two Warlocks meet each other. One has Basic IM, the other expert. The expert one now casts a spell onto the ENEMY Dragons and deals half of the normal spell damage. If the other does that, he'll deal only 20%. Logical? Yes! Now they cast Armageddon: the better Warlock will kill more Dragons on BOTH sides than the weaker one. Logical? Yes!
So where's the darn problem?

[Adicto]

Necromancer is the only race that can raise his creatures permanently,thus he is very tied with the spell.Also,every necromancer gets RD now,and I dont see every warlock gain armagedon.So which one has stronger ties again?

Raise Dead is tied to Necromancers & undead creatures, not to Necromancy. Necromancy is not affected by Rise Dead, for god´s sake!

Eternal Servitude anyone?!

When I say skeletons I mean melee skeletons and skeleton archers of course, and you knew it.

Raise Dead + Necromancy is what makes the Necromancer. But there are only a few magic ressistant creatures

That is true only for chatty noobs, Raise Dead is as important as Battle Frenzy or Vitality, but not a must. Anyway if you think that Raise Dead and Necromancy is what makes a necromancer, those are 2 different things that necromancers have, and each one has its different effect & mechanics.

Because its special is broken.God!Do I have to draw this to you people?!Warlock is the only race that has a racial ability that is dangerous to them.It became the weakest of all racials

Dangerous to them? Who is stupid enough to cast fireball or meteor shower on his own black dragons? ... It is supposed that you have to cast destructive spells on the enemy´s resistant creatures... Oh, and the really warlock´s racial is Elemental Chains, Irresistible Magic is like Counter Strike for Haven (OMG!!! 2 racials!! It is so unfair!! I think I´m gonna cry!!).

[DaemianLucifer]

1) For the immunity against a school.
We HAD the four elemental schools in H3. No one had anything against it that there were (are) immunities against them. It was probably because the idea of lemental schools was a fitting one. However, the immunities, for eaxmple of the Gold Dragon, were actually against a SCHOOL not against an element: They were immune against Earth MAGIC. This difference was irrelevant in H3, though.
Now we have other schools; while creatures have retained ELEMENTAL immunities mostly, there are some abilities that effect the spells of a certain school, making them cheaper, more effective and so on.
So my point is, that it's nothing illogical in having a skill (like Destructive Magic or Summoning Magic that deals with one school of magic exclusively) that has a certain effect on things based around a SCHOOL of Magic: Destructive. Empowered spells work for Destructive spells only as well, mind you; there is no empowered Decay, for example.
You could say, that Warlocks have a special affinity for a certain school of magic, which is everything else than illogical.

As you said it so many times before,this is not HIII.The creatures have immunities towards ellements and not schools now.And warlock pierces all immunities,not just earth one,or water ones,or universal ones.

2) Warlock on Warlock. That's an interesting concept. Two Warlocks meet each other. One has Basic IM, the other expert. The expert one now casts a spell onto the ENEMY Dragons and deals half of the normal spell damage. If the other does that, he'll deal only 20%. Logical? Yes! Now they cast Armageddon: the better Warlock will kill more Dragons on BOTH sides than the weaker one. Logical? Yes!
So where's the darn problem?

The problem is in the fact that irresistable magic works selectivelly,meaning you van harm,but not buff your creatures.But if its selectable,then you should be able to select your creatures not to loose their immunities.If its not selectable,then you should be able to pierce immunities with all spells.Simple as that.

[ThunderTitan]

Raise Dead is tied to Necromancers & undead creatures, not to Necromancy. Necromancy is not affected by Rise Dead, for god´s sake!

Tied and affected are different things. But it is, if you raise enough of your dead before the battle ends Eternal Servitude is affected.

Eternal Servitude anyone?!

When I say skeletons I mean melee skeletons and skeleton archers of course, and you knew it.

Raise Archers is the one with the Archers, not Eternal Servitude. Cut it out already.

That is true only for chatty noobs, Raise Dead is as important as Battle Frenzy or Vitality, but not a must. Anyway if you think that Raise Dead and Necromancy is what makes a necromancer, those are 2 different things that necromancers have, and each one has its different effect & mechanics.

Oh, i'm sorry for listening to all those noobs that post their opinion on the forum. And Nival with their weird changes.

Dangerous to them? Who is stupid enough to cast fireball or meteor shower on his own black dragons? ... It is supposed that you have to cast destructive spells on the enemy´s resistant creatures... Oh, and the really warlock´s racial is Elemental Chains, Irresistible Magic is like Counter Strike for Haven (OMG!!! 2 racials!! It is so unfair!! I think I´m gonna cry!!).

Yeah, and Counterstrike suffers from.... wait! As for Elemental Chains, have they been made any better since v1.0?

There sould be ways to balance something without ruining something else.