Irresistible magic

[DaemianLucifer]

- Your own resistant criters---> Irresistible magic annuls the enemy´s resistance

No,it just lowers it,not completelly annuls it.You can also use magical immunity,or you can always deploy a single stack of yours.With heaven you can just deploy griffins and battledive till the end.With inferno youll be able to hit with both cerberi and nightmare before the dragons even move,and youll probably get a succubus shot before the hero moves.With sylvan your hunters,unicorns and emeralds have a big chance to destroy your dragons before you destroy them with armagedon.Again,it comes down just to knowing your opponent and luck.

[Sir_Toejam]

So I must play with dungeon or academy to be able to defending myself against armageddon... That is simply stupid!

hey, one, I answered your question exactly as it was phrased, even beyond what you asked.

two, please have one player sign on to this board that has defeated you in multiplayer in homm 5 using armageddon. just one, to support your point. I already know the answer, but I might as well ask.

you simply don't know what you're talking about.

If you can't win against someone using armageddon, you can't win against somebody using meteor shower, or hell, any major spell for that matter.

no wonder destructive magic keeps getting nerfed downwards. there's so many poor strategists like yourself that keep whining about it.

armaggedon isn't half the spell in h5 that it was in h4, and it is NOT a winning strategy in this game, even if dragons were completely immune to it.

as it stands now, its only use is hit and run, and that's even hard to set up in a real game.

methinks thou dost protest too much.

poll numbers say it's time for a change, and you haven't presented a logical argument based on homm5 mechanics to suggest otherwise.

[Meandor]

-counterspell
-miniartifacts (unless you still consider reducing damage easily by 60% or more "absurd").
-your own resistant critters (summon phoenix, fire elementals, hordes of gargs, etc)
-use your own warlock.

that's four; there's more.

shall i continue?

You should continue. These 4 are really absurd.

the real question is, how on earth were you so stupid as to get beaten by someone using armageddon and a few dragons?

As i understand noone got beaten by few dragons and armageddon in H5 because such strategy won`t work here due do racial skill. Whole point of this discussion is to explain that irresistable magic should affect your own units. If it won`t there is a big chance that you`ll be pwned by few dragons and armageddon.

however it is SUPPOSED to be fire damage only

Why?

you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Jolly Joker 2?

no wonder destructive magic keeps getting nerfed downwards. there's so many poor strategists like yourself that keep whining about it.

Destructive magic has nothing to do with it. You want to boost warlock., while some of us think that warlock should remain the same.

poll numbers say it's time for a change, and you haven't presented a logical argument based on homm5 mechanics to suggest otherwise.

What argument do you want? Is warlock weak hero or something? Why should he get a boost while for example wizard gets a finger all the time?

[DaemianLucifer]

As i understand noone got beaten by few dragons and armageddon in H5 because such strategy won`t work here due do racial skill. Whole point of this discussion is to explain that irresistable magic should affect your own units. If it won`t there is a big chance that you`ll be pwned by few dragons and armageddon.

Try it with some other hero then,youll still fail,even if you get big SP,because of heroes initiative.No further nerfing was required.Besides,why does the whole destruction school need to be nerfed just so one spell doesnt get overpowered?It would be like making all summoning magic only once per battle because PF is overpowered.

Destructive magic has nothing to do with it. You want to boost warlock., while some of us think that warlock should remain the same.

Yes it does,because its the primary path for warlocks.Their racial is being seriously hampered by this(mind you none of the other racials is).

What argument do you want? Is warlock weak hero or something? Why should he get a boost while for example wizard gets a finger all the time?

What argument is that?Hey because this was done bad,lets make this one even worse?Wizards needs boosting as well,but thats another topic.

[Adicto]

No,it just lowers it,not completelly annuls it

Irresistible magic annuls magic resistance, but your spells make 20, 40, 50 or 75% of normal damage to otherwise resistant creatures. What kind of dungeon player are you who don´t know your own racial skills?

You can also use magical immunity

Only for light magic users... but anyway, irresistible magic annuls magic immunity, too. You should play a little more.

With heaven you can just deploy griffins and battledive till the end

Oh please... I´m sure you haven´t said that seriously. It´s simply stupid, you cannot evade dragons or armageddon eternally with battle dive, man.

With inferno youll be able to hit with both cerberi and nightmare before the dragons even move,and youll probably get a succubus shot before the hero moves

Yeah you can kill 1 or 2 dragons before a warlock can cast armageddon, but later what? He cast an empowered (maybe with warlock´s luck) armageddon and disintegrates half your army. Later he surrenders and comes again with all the full army. A cheap trick.

With sylvan your hunters,unicorns and emeralds have a big chance to destroy your dragons before you destroy them with armagedon

Hehe, sure, if you play like a noob. You only have to divide your dragons in several groups. That will provide 2 casts to you, maybe 3 with sorcery, more than enough to halve the enemy´s army.

please have one player sign on to this board that has defeated you in multiplayer in homm 5 using armageddon. just one, to support your point. I already know the answer, but I might as well ask.

Are you kidding? We are speaking in figurative sense, in case of only enemy troops being affected by irresistible magic. Nowadays is not possible defeat anybody using only dragons+armageddon because you hurt your dragons too, so answering to the topic of the thread: Irresistible Magic must affect your own creatures.

you simply don't know what you're talking about

I always love this kind of JollyJokish arguments

poll numbers say it's time for a change, and you haven't presented a logical argument based on homm5 mechanics to suggest otherwise

Poll numbers say that dungeon players are crying because they cannot win without a cheap trick. Only 1 of my arguments worth the whole dungeonmaniac posts in this thread, probably if you stop looking at your own navel you will realize.

[ThunderTitan]

Poll numbers say that dungeon players are crying because they cannot win without a cheap trick. Only 1 of my arguments worth the whole dungeonmaniac posts in this thread, probably if you stop looking at your own navel you will realize.

You know, there are other spells then just Armageddon in Destructive Magic.

And you can also always hire a non-warlock hero for Arma-bombs.

[cornellian]

Do I need say more Sir Toejam.. You already proved, as did Adicto, Meandor and others, that you have very little idea what you are talking about, but I should've known; in my last ten years I have worked with so many modders that didn't have the slightest idea of the game they were modding that your ideas are still slightly better than the crap they usually come up with...

Your solutions for a single spell were:

- Being a wizard and creating artifacts that will only protect your troops for probably about 25% due to irres. magic, and will need tons of gems when you are likely to lack them to even buy Titans..

- Being a warlock and having your own Black Dragons - a wonderful idea, really, so that we can return to the much missed '"I'll be a fireguard" "No I'll be a fireguard"' era of Heroes IV.

- Being a Ranger and taking:
i) Light Magic and then Master of Wrath, Storm Wind, Fire Resistance skills, then
ii) Summoning Magic and then Master of Earthblood, Wall of Fog, Fire Warriors, and finally taking
iii) Sorcery, Mana Regeneration, Arcane Brilliance to reach Counterspell..

I won't bother to write the reqs. for warlock and wizards, the other two that can counterspell. This one, well, I guess it speaks for itself..

What I suggest to you Sir Toejam, before creating loads of mods, is to thoroughly play the game you are modding, to understand the mechanics and the flow of the game, to use your brains and perception before you use your hands, which, by the way, is the friendly advice I always give to modders; and this is coming from a guy who had worked in this industry for a living for 10 years.

What you really need to employ however, is respect, and at least some level of character before calling people simpleton, stupid or lacking creative thought; this only goes to show your potential as a human being not ours. Very much like twelve year olds, you are lowering the level of your arguments when challenged, or claimed wrong; it may work in so many other forums, but I doubt it will work here. I like to spend some of my little spare time in CH because people usually keep above a certain level in discussions, so please, lets try to maintain that, eh?

P.S:

Nowadays is not possible defeat anybody using only dragons+armageddon because you hurt your dragons too,

Actually, as I wrote above, I did defeat my friend in an experimental game with spamming Arma with BDs, running back and returning with a real army; so it is possible, even in Heroes V, and even in this lesser Arma/BD trick form.

[DaemianLucifer]

Irresistible magic annuls magic resistance, but your spells make 20, 40, 50 or 75% of normal damage to otherwise resistant creatures. What kind of dungeon player are you who don´t know your own racial skills?

No it doesnt.I had unicorns ressist my magic numerous times.They did get damaged,but a lot less than they should.

Only for light magic users... but anyway, irresistible magic annuls magic immunity, too. You should play a little more.

Never tried it so I just asumed it works like a true magical immunity.If thats the case,well then,its another spell that doesnt work like its described.

Oh please... I´m sure you haven´t said that seriously. It´s simply stupid, you cannot evade dragons or armageddon eternally with battle dive, man.

You dont have to.Depending on your opponent,you may need to do this for just 3,4 turns.

Yeah you can kill 1 or 2 dragons before a warlock can cast armageddon, but later what? He cast an empowered (maybe with warlock´s luck) armageddon and disintegrates half your army. Later he surrenders and comes again with all the full army. A cheap trick.

1 or 2 dragons with your hero,+ a lot more with your army.You would buy your army,woulnd you?And cheap???Surendering with loads of dragons is not cheap.Plus you may refuse and hell have no dragons when he rebuys the hero.Plus you can rebuy that hero as well.Calling something that needs at least 50000 gold cheap Thats beyond me.

Hehe, sure, if you play like a noob. You only have to divide your dragons in several groups. That will provide 2 casts to you, maybe 3 with sorcery, more than enough to halve the enemy´s army.

And here it depends only on luck.If your opponent places his troops right,he can slaughter one stack with unicorns and dragons and the other with hunters.

I always love this kind of JollyJokish arguments

Wow,he might even get into some dictionary if he continues like that

Poll numbers say that dungeon players are crying because they cannot win without a cheap trick. Only 1 of my arguments worth the whole dungeonmaniac posts in this thread, probably if you stop looking at your own navel you will realize.

Oh please.You people keep saying that the trick is cheap,yet faile to realizie how much money it really requires.And if you want it early you have to focus on just the dragons and mage guild.But what if you dont get armagedon?You die.That strategy is very risky,expensive,and I doubt that it would work against anyone with a bit of a skill.So why nerf the whole race because of same shakey strategy involving a single(already nerfed)spell?

[ThunderTitan]

and this is coming from a guy who had worked in this industry for a living for 10 years.

What did you work on?

What you really need to employ however, is respect, and at least some level of character before calling people simpleton, stupid or lacking creative thought; this only goes to show your potential as a human being not ours. Very much like twelve year olds, you are lowering the level of your arguments when challenged, or claimed wrong; it may work in so many other forums, but I doubt it will work here.

Huh?! I'm pretty sure that happens here alot too, we just don't use as many curse words.

[Meandor]

Try it with some other hero then,youll still fail,even if you get big SP,because of heroes initiative.No further nerfing was required.

IIRC Warlock has highest SP, empowered spells and warlock`s luck. So most of the time he is going to do much more damage than your ordinary another hero. Heroes initiative? IIRC with sorcery you`ll get your turns faster than enemy hero which is using attack.

No further nerfing was required.Besides,why does the whole destruction school need to be nerfed just so one spell doesnt get overpowered?It would be like making all summoning magic only once per battle because PF is overpowered.

I don`t get it, how destructive magic is nerfed due to that? Warlock can do much more damage than your ordinary non-warlock with destructive magic, but if played wrong can hurt his own units. Thats how balance should look.

What argument is that?Hey because this was done bad,lets make this one even worse?Wizards needs boosting as well,but thats another topic.

Warlock is fine, wizard is broken. Why they should improve warlock even more while leaving wizard as it is?

And you can also always hire a non-warlock hero for Arma-bombs.

Like you are going to have most of the time a non-warlock hero which would have high enough SP to do some damage and could lern armageddon

[Naskoni]

Well, I would have been fully supportive for keeping Irresistible Magic as it is, i.e. hurting your own units, if it also allowed for Warlocks to heal, bless, cure and so on his own units - like Dragons, but to the best of my understanding (as I don't play Dungeon - the chicks are not my cup of tea and the stalactite town design bugs me... anyway) it works only for damage spells?

Also isn't it true that if an Academy Mage got his hands on both Black Dragons and Armageddon (somehow - capturing a Dungeon town?) he could potentially spam the thing without any penalty to his Dragons flying them around for as long as possible?

I mean why should Warlocks get only the negative end of the stick - why not allow them use Irresistible Magic both ways - fine, I will hurt my Dragons, but I can also boost them, resurrect them (if you get the spell that is - theoretically possible ) and so on? Logically if you can "bypass" a unit's resistance you should be able to not only hurt it but also heal it, no? Or maybe I'm wrong in all this somewhere?

[cornellian]

@TT:

Well I can't give out the names of the games to protect my name; but I guess there will be no harm in naming the companies I'd worked for: Blizzard, Interplay, GoD, Epic, GT, Konami, SSI, Sierra (for several developers), and Koei.. Needless to say, in dozens of TCs (total conversions) and mod projects as well...

Working as a freelance, I got much more than my fair share in contracts, so I might have missed a company or two, but suffice it to say that I've seen too many people with good ideas for the wrong game, or irrelevant ideas that tried to fix what ain't broken in games, and that advice I wrote is what I've always given them...

[cornellian]

it works only for damage spells?

Yes, strangely enough it does, but magic immune Black Dragons that you would be able to resurrect (with Warlock's insane SP) is not helping to balance the game ..

Also isn't it true that if an Academy Mage got his hands on both Black Dragons and Armageddon (somehow - capturing a Dungeon town?) he could potentially spam the thing without any penalty to his Dragons flying them around for as long as possible?

Exactly.. Though he won't have lots of SP, he will be able to cast it many times.. Just another example how 'broken' Arma/BD trick is..

[DaemianLucifer]

IIRC Warlock has highest SP, empowered spells and warlock`s luck. So most of the time he is going to do much more damage than your ordinary another hero. Heroes initiative? IIRC with sorcery you`ll get your turns faster than enemy hero which is using attack.

But not before the creatures,and not the first turn,which is the most important one.

I don`t get it, how destructive magic is nerfed due to that? Warlock can do much more damage than your ordinary non-warlock with destructive magic, but if played wrong can hurt his own units. Thats how balance should look.

No other racial hampers you.You get boost to counterattack by heaven,does that reduce your defense?You get loads of undead with necro,does that give you penalty to spells?You get even more luck with sylven,does that mean your lucky shots are less potent?You get artifacts that boost your creatures with wizard,does any of them hamper your units?You gate additional units with necro,does that give them some penalty?Warlock is the only one that gets penalty to his creatures with his racial.And you find that ok?Then why is wizard broken?Because he is the weakest of the six?So what,that just makes him unique by your logic.He is so low powered because he has tons of knowledge and can learn all spells.

Warlock is fine, wizard is broken. Why they should improve warlock even more while leaving wizard as it is?

Warlock is almost fine,and wizard does need improvement,I never say they dont.But warlock should have a normal specialty like others,not a broken one.

@Naskoni

I agree.Thats another way for fixing their racial.

[Naskoni]

it works only for damage spells?

Yes, strangely enough it does, but magic immune Black Dragons that you would be able to resurrect (with Warlock's insane SP) is not helping to balance the game ..

Also isn't it true that if an Academy Mage got his hands on both Black Dragons and Armageddon (somehow - capturing a Dungeon town?) he could potentially spam the thing without any penalty to his Dragons flying them around for as long as possible?

Exactly.. Though he won't have lots of SP, he will be able to cast it many times.. Just another example how 'broken' Arma/BD trick is..

Well, I might not play as Dungeon but I play as Necro and I know for a fact that Dungeon gets just as much SP as Necro does and just as "much" Knowledge as Necro and in that case I'm not sure about Dungeon being able to "spam" the spell as it will cost him double mana if he wants to inflict as much damage as possible, isn't it?

For me it should be either way - either Black Dragons can be both hurt AND healed/boosted/whatever by the Warlock or neither. As it is at the moment I think of the skill as a bit absurd - I mean why should Mages (or anybody else for that matter) be able to do exactly what Dungeon's racial prevents them? Just doesn't make any sense to me...

If Warlocks are not able to "penetrate" their immunity to heal Dragons then why should they be able to "penetrate" the immunity to hurt them? It just boggles my mind...

[Adicto]

I don`t get it, how destructive magic is nerfed due to that? Warlock can do much more damage than your ordinary non-warlock with destructive magic, but if played wrong can hurt his own units. Thats how balance should look.

No other racial hampers you.You get boost to counterattack by heaven,does that reduce your defense?You get loads of undead with necro,does that give you penalty to spells?You get even more luck with sylven,does that mean your lucky shots are less potent?You get artifacts that boost your creatures with wizard,does any of them hamper your units?You gate additional units with necro,does that give them some penalty?Warlock is the only one that gets penalty to his creatures with his racial.And you find that ok?Then why is wizard broken?Because he is the weakest of the six?So what,that just makes him unique by your logic.He is so low powered because he has tons of knowledge and can learn all spells.

Warlock is fine, wizard is broken. Why they should improve warlock even more while leaving wizard as it is?

Warlock is almost fine,and wizard does need improvement,I never say they dont.But warlock should have a normal specialty like others,not a broken one.

Sorry, but I have never written those lines.

[Adicto]

P.S:

Nowadays is not possible defeat anybody using only dragons+armageddon because you hurt your dragons too,

Actually, as I wrote above, I did defeat my friend in an experimental game with spamming Arma with BDs, running back and returning with a real army; so it is possible, even in Heroes V, and even in this lesser Arma/BD trick form.

Another point for our cause then.

[Sir_Toejam]

hmm, what if we just made BDs immune to elemental damage, like obsidian gargs?

that way you could still cast some damage spells on them (like eldritch arrow), and be able to heal/curse/bless them?

[ThunderTitan]

Well I can't give out the names of the games to protect my name; but I guess there will be no harm in naming the companies I'd worked for: Blizzard, Interplay, GoD, Epic, GT, Konami, SSI, Sierra (for several developers), and Koei.. Needless to say, in dozens of TCs (total conversions) and mod projects as well...

I was actualy just curious. That's quite a list.

But ppl should make the mods they want and let others decide to use them or not. If you're just gonna make a mod for balance then what's the dev for?!

Another point for our cause then.

Not really, as it clearly states that it can be done even with how the game is now. I still don't think 1 spell should determine the entire school. How hard would it be to make Armageddon overwrite Immunity?! Or at least reduce it to 50%. No need for the other spells.

[Sir_Toejam]

Do I need say more Sir Toejam..

yes, you do.

defacto statements of "victory" have no meaning without evidence.

you asked for ways of bypassing armageddon, MANY were given to you.

just because you don't want to use them, doesn't mean they don't work.

What I suggest to you Sir Toejam, before creating loads of mods, is to thoroughly play the game you are modding, to understand the mechanics and the flow of the game, to use your brains and perception before you use your hands, which, by the way, is the friendly advice I always give to modders; and this is coming from a guy who had worked in this industry for a living for 10 years.

condescension doesn't become you. I HAVE played the game quite a bit, hence I am aware of the actual strategies that DO work against warlocks.

did you automatically assume that any modder here hasn't had the "experience in the industry that you have"? that's a bad assumption on your part.

Your experience in the industry doesn't hide the fact that YOU have NOT tried these things.

I completely agree with Naskoni.

the way the warlock's special works now just doesn't make any sense.

I see NO evidence to support your or addicto's contention that the objection to the way this works has anything to do with warlock fans wanting to spam armageddon.

so far, what i see is that the objections come from the fact that as it stands, irresistible magic makes no sense.

the rest of your "bones" are ridiculous drivel.

..and oh gee, guess what, I have worked for game developers too, so your own experience counts for what exactly?

you could be the bloody president of Blizzard, and it would mean exactly squat in terms of specific opinions on a specific modification of any given game.

where your experience comes in handy is in making general recommendations, but that is not what you're about here.

Moreover, the bottom line here is, we are discussing a MOD, not official changes to the game, so of course, if you don't like the results, guess what? you don't have to use it!

which of course, makes me wonder why you and addicto object so vehemently.

whee! Isn't freedom wonderful?