Irresistible magic

[cornellian]

I thought I would enjoy my Biclops rating for a while; oh well, back to being a conscript again...

What most people fail to see here is the ratio of loss. Forget damages; there is no buffing spell in Light Magic, no curse spell in Dark Magic etc. that would make a single tier7 creature to take out 2 tier7, 4 tier6, 8 tier5, 16 tier4, 35 tier3, 40 tier2, and 70+ tier1 (half of what I wrote last page)...

If there is any other spell in the game besides the uber-powerful Summon Phoenix (and then again that very much depends on the spell power) that would give the caster such a ridiculous advantage in one cast, I'd like to know. What I think, and I don't want to start flame wars here, is that Armageddon & BD was one last powergaming issue Heroes had, and people want it back exactly because of this.

[Sir_Toejam]

the uber-powerful Summon Phoenix (and then again that very much depends on the spell power) that would give the caster such a ridiculous advantage in one cast

ya know, i keep thinking i will use that spell, and always get happy when i see it in the guild, i find that in practice i rarely use it.

against human players, they simply avoid it if they don't have the ability to take it out in one turn (several ways to do this like harm touch, icy death, banish, etc.), and go after the rest of my units.

against the AI, I'm usually busy trying to incapacitate the rest of their army before i even can think of casting a phoenix into the mix.

as to spells that are just as (or more debilitating):

mass confusion at expert level (totally removes ranged and retalliation).

meteor storm (with a decent warlock)

hypnotize (even moreso when combined with sandros cloak), especially since now inflicting damage doesn't remove the spell!

mass deflect missile/endurance/haste/righteous might. any of these make a big difference.

as to armageddon being "unbalanced" it simply isn't all that powerful.

if your only army is a few blackies, then your still gonna get wiped if your opponent has a full army with him.

going against academy, for example, it's easy to put magic damage reducing mini artificacts on your critters (a knowledge of only 11 gives you around 50% spell damage reduction, for example).

nope, i don't buy that it would be unbalancing for armageddon to NOT affect spell immune critters (or fire immune critters for that matter).

[cornellian]

as to armageddon being "unbalanced" it simply isn't all that powerful.

if your only army is a few blackies, then your still gonna get wiped if your opponent has a full army with him.

...and what if I have 20 dragons? Will those dispellable spells screw an army as Armageddon does? You know, it only takes two months to have 20 blackies, much before games are usually decided.. Then what, what prevents me from deploying an army of 20 blackies and running away when I have 2-3 left, taking out a great portion of, if not the whole, main enemy army, and returning back with my tier 1->6 troops? This is a very cheap trick... I should know, I already won a MP game with the exact same strategy couple weeks ago; and even though I was against a close friend in an 'experimental' game, I immediately wished I had won by employing a strategy, something that requires some talent and brains..

The problem is not necessarily in Armageddon actually, it is the way Armageddon is most readily available to those who also have access to Black Dragons. If, say, furies were immune, you could have taken them down with a concentrated effort; but that rarely is the case with base 30 def/att, 240 HP creature. Before 10 blacks are dead, you would lose 4-6 weeks of your creatures in almost any setting, including battles with thousands of skellie archers; again dungeon hero can retreat and come back with an army impossible to defeat in the same week. As I told, I should know, as should anyone that have tried it.

[DaemianLucifer]

What I think, and I don't want to start flame wars here, is that Armageddon & BD was one last powergaming issue Heroes had, and people want it back exactly because of this.

Ah,but the key word is was.By making hero has its own turns and decreasing the damage of armagedon they dealt with that exploit.So this is just unnecesarry further nerfing of blackies and warlocks racial.I doubt that armagedon exploit could be used now even if blackies were immune to your spells.

[cornellian]

What do you mean, that you wouldn't use a 7000 damage Armageddon spell (7x1000) if you could.. Come on now, you named it yourself, it was an exploit, and it now is half the exploit it was, but still an exploit nevertheless..

Anyway, it is clear to me that our prolific modder Sir Toejam should make a mod to please you powergamer bunch ...

[Sir_Toejam]

7000 damage Armageddon spell (7x1000) if you could..

are you talking total damage?

if so, how is that really any different than meteor shower?

per unit, the damage isn't all that great.

try it yourself if you don't believe me.

I had the AI during the campaigns use it on me any number of times (usually with wizards that had a good stock of obsidian gargs).

guess what...

I still won handily.

it simply isn't the uber win all strategy you seem to think it is.

[DaemianLucifer]

I still haven't been able to figure out if there is a way to get area effect spells not to affect friendlies, let alone figuring out if there is a way to mod the basic faction skill so it only affects enemies. OTOH, the "banshee howl" only affects enemies, so...

to tell the truth, it wouldn't suprise me if it can't be modded from the data files themselves.

time will tell, but yeah, i expect this one to take a while before there is a defnitive answer one way or the other.

there are more experienced h5 modders than myself hanging about the elrath forums; it might be worth posting there to see if anyone has tried tinkering with it yet.

Maybe including the "is friendly" line might do the trick.

...and what if I have 20 dragons? Will those dispellable spells screw an army as Armageddon does? You know, it only takes two months to have 20 blackies, much before games are usually decided.. Then what, what prevents me from deploying an army of 20 blackies and running away when I have 2-3 left, taking out a great portion of, if not the whole, main enemy army, and returning back with my tier 1->6 troops? This is a very cheap trick...

Money.Though I dont know about 1.3 patch,but before it blacks were not easily obtainable at all.

[cornellian]

Of course you still won handily, in campaign games your heroes and your armies achieve levels that is practically unattainable in custom or MP games.. Nothing is the uber win all strategy in a strategy game, but try to find a MP opponent that will use this trick to you and maybe you will see that it is a very safe and cheap bet of winning the game..

By the way, the difference between MS and Arma is that after the first turn you rarely get two units with a MS. where with Armageddon, that 7000 (of course I'm talking about the total damage, 7x1000) damage is guaranteed. Oh, and money is never the problem after week six or seven in my games, and besides, it rarely matters when you have an army to recruit and your opponent doesn't..

[Sir_Toejam]

Maybe including the "is friendly" line might do the trick.

actually I'm pretty sure what that does is make it so you can cast it on friendlies, but not on enemies (like buff spell).

kinda the reverse of what I'm going for.

[Sir_Toejam]

is a very safe and cheap bet of winning the game..

you're not gettin it.

this isn't h4. armageddon is not as powerful a spell in h5, and unlike in h4, there are several ways to counter it.

think for a second, and I'm sure you will come up with at least 3 right off the top of your head that exist in h5 but don't in h4.

[DaemianLucifer]

actually I'm pretty sure what that does is make it so you can cast it on friendlies, but not on enemies (like buff spell).

kinda the reverse of what I'm going for.

Yes,thats what it does for spells,but what does it do for skills and AOE spells?Did you try setting it on for fireball?

[Sir_Toejam]

I have to admit, i haven't actually tried it.

might as well, as I'm about to test some tweaks to druids/mages anyway.

I've also modified a number of spells too, to have them better reflect power and expertise levels (increased the range while keeping the average the same).

for example, ice bolt is a little less dependent on base level and a little more dependent on power (about a 15% shift), and it scales more rigorously with expertise in destructive magic (20% increase over the original in the difference between untrained and expert).

It seems like it wouldn't be hard to work knowledge levels in for some spells too (which would make the wizards happy, i suppose).

I'll post if changing the friendly value has an effect on area spells.

[DaemianLucifer]

I suppose it would be just adding a line "Per knowledge",instead of "Per power".Oh,can spells be made to do random damage like physical attacks?

[Sir_Toejam]

I suppose it would be just adding a line "Per knowledge",instead of "Per power".Oh,can spells be made to do random damage like physical attacks?

yes.

I don't know; interesting idea though. I know you can add multiple damage effects to spells, so it seems likely.

as to the previous, as i thought it simply allows you to target friendlies with area effect spells as well as enemies.

[DaemianLucifer]

Hmmm...So it should be searched for in the spell effects.Curses and buffs are exclusive,so there should be a special line to them.

[Sir_Toejam]

Curses and buffs are exclusive,so there should be a special line to them.

you'd think, wouldn't ya?

it just doesn't appear to be as straightforward as that.

I'm sure I or someone else will stumble on what needs to be changed pretty soon.

[cornellian]

is a very safe and cheap bet of winning the game..

you're not gettin it.

this isn't h4. armageddon is not as powerful a spell in h5, and unlike in h4, there are several ways to counter it.

think for a second, and I'm sure you will come up with at least 3 right off the top of your head that exist in h5 but don't in h4.

I will be satisfied if you can provide one instead of three, rather than telling me that I could find them in a second, for I could not; but I'm sure you will come up with all three and some more in a split second...

Tell me, what tactics, which spells or skills will protect my troops from 1000 damage a piece? 'Solutions' like taking multiple mag. res skills for a single spell, or playing with Academy and making resistance artifacts are absurd at best, so I'm assuming they aren't the ones.. As Arma isn't fire damage only, and as there is no mass magical immunity, I am curious about this grand trick that can save my troops' butts.

I really wonder if you ever got the wrong side of the deal in Arma business, and if you actually know what you are talking about..

[Sir_Toejam]

I will be satisfied if you can provide one instead of three,

Ah! i see. your problem is a lack of creative thought and knowledge of the game, not a real problem with armaggedon.

-counterspell
-miniartifacts (unless you still consider reducing damage easily by 60% or more "absurd").
-your own resistant critters (summon phoenix, fire elementals, hordes of gargs, etc)
-use your own warlock.

that's four; there's more.

shall i continue?

I really wonder if you ever got the wrong side of the deal in Arma business, and if you actually know what you are talking about..

the real question is, how on earth were you so stupid as to get beaten by someone using armageddon and a few dragons?

As Arma isn't fire damage only

the only correct thing you have said, however it is SUPPOSED to be fire damage only. it's been tweaked to please simpletons like yourself, that couldn't figure out ways around beating someone using it. Still, all fire immune critters take less than half damage from it, as it stands.

In fact, I'm looking into right now changing it to be like it's supposed to, one element only.

[DaemianLucifer]

I really wonder if you ever got the wrong side of the deal in Arma business

In HIII,sure lots of times.But there your hero had no initiative.I also was the victim of fire resistant armagedon caster once in HIV,but then again.But in both those games armaged worked a lot different.

[Adicto]

-counterspell
-miniartifacts (unless you still consider reducing damage easily by 60% or more "absurd").
-your own resistant critters (summon phoenix, fire elementals, hordes of gargs, etc)
-use your own warlock.

that's four; there's more.

shall i continue?

- Counterspell---> Only for wizards and warlocks
- Miniartifacts---> Only for wizards
- Your own resistant criters---> Irresistible magic annuls the enemy´s resistance
- Use yout own warlock---> you must play with dungeon too, because to play with any other faction using a warlock hero is not a good option, not even a serious option

So I must play with dungeon or academy to be able to defending myself against armageddon... That is simply stupid!

Please all dungeon players here, stop crying! accept yours fate: the majority of the people will give you great beatings cause you cannot play without overpowered abilities, creatures or spells .