Tyris or Sir Mullich

[pikeman93]

Who's the better Castle hero?

I've been sticking with Tyris because of the awesome Tactics, boost to cavaliers, and offense, but I'm wondering if Sir Mullich may be a better hero? He has +2 speed for all creatures, and automatic haste, so perhaps more speed is better than extra attack and offense?

Thanks.

EDIT: This is for HOMM3

[Spin]

Mullich is easily the best Castle Hero, not only that, possibly the best hero in the game. +2 speed helps you amazingly from the start by turning normally slow pikemen and archers into very fast units which help you in fighting neutral stacks much more. This starting advantage is fantastic, as Tyris's ability doesn't really start to kick in until on higher levels, and +2 speed from mullich basically already gives Caveliers + Champions more damage (by jousting bonus)

[Tress]

Mulich stat wise is best hero, I don't even think that there can be any discussion about best hero, since mulich's spec is simply out of line compare to almost any other spec in game. Tyris on other hand is good hero with unit spec that a) is acquirable relatively late in game b) have good speed already so there is not that much need to boost it even more(rellatively boost is smaller than for slower unit, for example mulich would also boost slow, but extremely powerful crusaders), while mulich boost all units, not to mention twice as much as unit specialist. Also without saying it means that mulich is faster on world map.
Simply put Mulich should be banned from any game that is competitive due to being OP(and that NWC guy should be ashamed for blatant self insert with no background lore and insane spec), while Tyris ir just decent hero(pretty sure crusader spec is more useful but that can all be discussed).

[Salamandre]

Orrin.

Mullich is easily the best Castle Hero, not only that, possibly the best hero in the game.

Sir Mulich sucks, compared to armorer/offense specialists. 2 speed against huge damage reduction, do the maths.

[Tress]

Well can do math -
Armorer 15% damage reduction on expert + 5 % for each level. So on level 20 it will be 30 instead of 15. Quite good, but for single map game, level 20 is alot.
Mulich on other hand makes crusaders much more viable, as if they weren't damaging enough. Furthermore +2 speed also makes map movment faster that is extremely valuable, also for equal armies it will give first cast right to mulich rather than his opponent.
Yes armorer is extremely valuable skill, but it needs a lot of leveling to be effective, since on first 5-8, bonus wont be noticeable, while mulich affects game from first minute.

[Salamandre]

Yes, Mulich is a good hero till level 7-8, for little fights around your starting town. After that he is left far away by offense/armorer specialists. Once they have expert haste or slow, his bonus is vanishing, while their remains.
Try a test, Mulich lev 20 vs Tazar lev 20, same spells, same skills/creatures and you will see what I mean.

[Tress]

First of all mulich can learn armorer and offense too, so gap is not THAT big. Secondly by time they get level 20, mulich will have strategical advantage since he could have moved faster. Tactical value of +2 speed for all is also underestimated. With this reasoning heroes like Dessa and Gunnar would be owned by a mile but we all know that they are often banned and not because they are useless and they are trying to protect players from useless heroes in pool.

[Salamandre]

Only in competitive game play one could see exactly what are those heros advantages and bonuses. In World Cup League

http://www.heroes-iii.com/ (click on statistics)

after 8 years or playing, Sir Mulich is in 20th position as best hero. That takes in considerations their starting advantages (for example Shakti or Gurnisson specialties trigger a much better and faster development than Mulich), their capacity to learn good skills, and finally their capacity to win the final battle. Sir Mullich is a good hero for cleaning a few crypts at start, but later he will stagnate, as his specialty is not increasing exponentially, while most others do. Ivor for example, coming with extra elves, will give to the player a bunch of extra levels in the first week, and that is the time when the game is decided, except if the other has Tazar, Crag or Mephala, which will decide the later game. It is a pity the game was reduced to the offense/armorer specialty but it is the reality.

[wimfrits]

Depends on the map and difficulty played. In maps with a challenging start, Sir Mullich's specialty can give the player a game-breaking edge.
In the games I played, Sir Mullich was banned without question.

[BoardGuest808888]

What you say is the most true. It depends really on map. However, for non-WoG maps, I'd like to consider Sir Mullich to be one of the best.

This really depends, of course, whether said hero would face something with more speed than their own troops or not. If for the whole map all you're against are walking deads and peasants, then Sir Mullich's specialty didn't seem all that useful compared to say, Orrin or Tyris..

[mikel123]

Only in competitive game play one could see exactly what are those heros advantages and bonuses. In World Cup League

http://www.heroes-iii.com/ (click on statistics)

after 8 years or playing, Sir Mulich is in 20th position as best hero. That takes in considerations their starting advantages (for example Shakti or Gurnisson specialties trigger a much better and faster development than Mulich), their capacity to learn good skills, and finally their capacity to win the final battle. Sir Mullich is a good hero for cleaning a few crypts at start, but later he will stagnate, as his specialty is not increasing exponentially, while most others do. Ivor for example, coming with extra elves, will give to the player a bunch of extra levels in the first week, and that is the time when the game is decided, except if the other has Tazar, Crag or Mephala, which will decide the later game. It is a pity the game was reduced to the offense/armorer specialty but it is the reality.

This is great data. But, it's biased a bit. For example, their rating system is somewhat dumb - it strongly rewards just using a hero a lot, since it gives points for wins AND losses, and ignores win percentage. Additionally, it is biased by the strength of the initial towns themselves.

I loaded this data into a spreadsheet and modified it in the following ways:

1) I took the hero data and added 100 average games (50 wins and 50 losses) to each character. Thus, a 4-0 character now has a record of 54-104, which is a more reasonable estimate of its skill. This is the hero's winning percentage.

2) I added up all of the hero records (without the 100 extra games), then added 100 average games (50 wins and 50 losses) to each town. The result was the winning percentage of the town.

3) Finally, I took the hero winning percentage and subtracted their town winning percentage, to try to isolate the skill of the hero themselves. For example, if a hero had a 54% win percentage, and their town had a 48% win percentage, I note their win percentage as 6%.

It's hard to parse the results of this, but some notes:
- might looks a lot better than magic
- for special types, it looks like the pecking order, best to worst, is:
- creature specials
- resource specials
- ballista special
- skill special
- spell special
- I think resource specials are weight down a lot by Saurug and his odd 1 gem per day

One thing I couldn't account for, but I think is evident in the data, is the possibility that differently-skilled players could choose different heroes. For example, if all the noobs choose Dessa because OMG LOGISTICS, she will have a low winning percentage, but her true skill might be much higher.

Not sure this will work, but complete data below:

Code: Select all

Heroes          	G	W	L	adj_win%	town	final	m/m	town	special
Damacon      	173	94	79	54%	48%	6%	might	dungeon	+350 gold per day
Sir Mullich 	240	127	113	53%	47%	5%	might	castle	+2 speed to all units
Gretchin   	273	160	113	59%	53%	5%	might	stronghold	Goblins
Dracon        	129	70	59	54%	49%	5%	magic	tower	Trains Enchanters
Sorsha     	312	164	148	53%	47%	5%	might	castle	Swordsmen
Alkin     	380	215	165	57%	52%	5%	might	fortress	Gorgons
Monere      	226	124	102	55%	50%	5%	might	conflux	Psychic el. +3A, +3D
Catherine      	115	59	56	51%	47%	4%	might	castle	Crusaders
Gurnisson 	504	285	219	57%	53%	3%	might	stronghold	Ballista (above 4th level)
Ivor     	1528	854	674	56%	53%	3%	might	rampart	Wood Elves
Orrin     	760	382	378	50%	47%	3%	might	castle	Archery skill
Vokial          	104	54	50	52%	49%	3%	might	necropolis	Vampires
Mutare          	101	51	50	50%	48%	3%	might	dungeon	Dragons get +5A, +5D
Gunnar      	226	114	112	50%	48%	3%	might	dungeon	Logistics skill
Cuthbert        	104	52	52	50%	47%	3%	magic	castle	Weakness spell
Grindan      	139	73	66	53%	50%	2%	magic	conflux	+350 gold per day
Geon            	104	52	52	50%	48%	2%	magic	dungeon	Eagle Eye skill
Lacus        	149	78	71	52%	50%	2%	might	conflux	Water el. +2A
Sylvia          	107	53	54	50%	47%	2%	might	castle	Navigation skill
Ingham          	105	52	53	50%	47%	2%	magic	castle	Monks or Zealots
Daremyth       	110	56	54	51%	49%	2%	magic	tower	Fortune spell
Iona           	116	59	57	51%	49%	2%	might	tower	Genies
Nymus       	204	105	99	51%	50%	2%	might	inferno	Pit Fiends
Yog          	162	89	73	55%	53%	2%	might	stronghold	Cyclopes
Fiona         	119	61	58	51%	50%	2%	might	inferno	Hell Hounds
Sephinroth      	107	53	54	50%	48%	2%	magic	dungeon	+1 Crystal per day
Charna         	112	57	55	51%	49%	2%	might	necropolis	Wights or Wraiths
Wystan      	250	133	117	53%	52%	2%	might	fortress	Lizardmen
Galthran     	128	65	63	51%	49%	2%	might	necropolis	Skeletons
Mephala  	1203	655	548	54%	53%	2%	might	rampart	Armorer skill
Torosar      	141	71	70	50%	49%	1%	might	tower	Ballista (above 4th level)
Valeska   	575	281	294	49%	47%	1%	might	castle	Archers
Broghild     	185	98	87	53%	52%	1%	might	fortress	Wyverns
Lorelei        	116	57	59	49%	48%	1%	might	dungeon	Harpies
Dace      	330	162	168	49%	48%	1%	might	dungeon	Minotaurs
Ignatius     	134	68	66	51%	50%	1%	might	inferno	Imps
Septienna       	103	52	51	50%	49%	1%	magic	necropolis	Death Ripple spell
Moandor         	103	52	51	50%	49%	1%	might	necropolis	Liches or Power Liches
Gelare          	105	54	51	51%	50%	1%	magic	conflux	+350 gold per day
Halon           	104	52	52	50%	49%	1%	magic	tower	Mysticism skill
Marius       	196	99	97	51%	50%	1%	might	inferno	Demons
Drakon       	150	79	71	53%	52%	1%	might	fortress	Gnolls
Crag Hack	1229	665	564	54%	53%	1%	might	stronghold	Offense skill
Octavia      	159	80	79	50%	50%	1%	might	inferno	+350 gold per day
Krellion     	191	103	88	54%	53%	1%	might	stronghold	Ogres
Ajit         	144	70	74	49%	48%	1%	might	dungeon	Beholders
Straker         	102	51	51	50%	49%	1%	might	necropolis	Walking Dead
Nimbus          	106	53	53	50%	49%	1%	magic	necropolis	Eagle Eye skill
Thane          	111	55	56	50%	49%	1%	might	tower	Genies
Piquedram       	105	52	53	50%	49%	1%	might	tower	Gargoyles
Sanya           	106	51	55	48%	47%	1%	magic	castle	Eagle Eye skill
Serena          	101	50	51	50%	49%	1%	magic	tower	Eagle Eye skill
Tyraxor   	544	292	252	54%	53%	1%	might	stronghold	Wolf Riders
Calid          	112	56	56	50%	50%	0%	magic	inferno	+1 Sulfur per day
Olema           	102	51	51	50%	50%	0%	magic	inferno	Weakness spell
Ash             	104	52	52	50%	50%	0%	magic	inferno	Bloodlust spell
Synca         	116	56	60	48%	48%	0%	might	dungeon	Manticores
Adelaide      	117	56	61	48%	47%	0%	magic	castle	Frost Ring spell
Jabarkas    	254	136	118	54%	53%	0%	might	stronghold	Orcs
Rissa        	124	61	63	49%	49%	0%	might	tower	+1 Mercury per day
Aine          	118	58	60	49%	49%	0%	magic	tower	+350 gold per day
Xsi             	101	50	51	50%	49%	0%	magic	necropolis	Stone Skin spell
Kalt           	115	58	57	50%	50%	0%	might	conflux	Water el. +2A
Thunar         	117	59	58	50%	50%	0%	might	conflux	Magma el. +2A, +1D, +5Dmg
Thorgrim     	162	86	76	53%	53%	0%	might	rampart	Resistance skill
Neela     	405	198	207	49%	49%	0%	might	tower	Armorer skill
Axsis           	103	51	52	50%	50%	0%	magic	inferno	Mysticism skill
Bron        	244	126	118	52%	52%	0%	might	fortress	Basilisks
Korbac      	221	114	107	52%	52%	0%	might	fortress	Serpent
Fafner       	123	60	63	49%	49%	0%	might	tower	Nagas
Lord Haart     	114	56	58	49%	49%	0%	might	necropolis	lack Knights get +5A, +5D, +10Dmg
Clavius         	108	53	55	49%	49%	0%	might	necropolis	+350 gold per day
Ufretin        	110	58	52	53%	53%	0%	might	rampart	Dwarves
Tamika          	104	51	53	49%	49%	0%	might	necropolis	Black Knights
Nagash          	102	50	52	49%	49%	0%	magic	necropolis	+350 gold per day
Erdamon        	112	56	56	50%	50%	0%	might	conflux	Magma el. +2A, +1D, +5Dmg
Aenain         	110	55	55	50%	50%	0%	magic	conflux	Disrupting Ray spell works +2
Fiur         	158	79	79	50%	50%	0%	might	conflux	Fire and Energy Elementals
Inteus          	102	51	51	50%	50%	0%	magic	conflux	Bloodlust spell
Adela         	123	58	65	47%	47%	0%	magic	castle	Bless spell
Ayden         	120	59	61	49%	50%	0%	magic	inferno	Intelligence skill
Alamar        	120	57	63	48%	48%	0%	magic	dungeon	Resurrection spell
Arlach       	196	93	103	47%	48%	0%	might	dungeon	Ballista (above 4th level)
Tazar     	1026	525	501	51%	52%	-1%	might	fortress	Armorer skill
Aislinn         	109	53	56	49%	49%	-1%	magic	necropolis	Meteor Shower spell
Josephine      	112	54	58	48%	49%	-1%	might	tower	Golems
Darkstorn       	106	50	56	47%	48%	-1%	magic	dungeon	Stone Skin spell
Voy             	102	52	50	51%	52%	-1%	magic	fortress	Navigation skill
Rashka       	125	61	64	49%	50%	-1%	might	inferno	Efreet
Labetha         	105	52	53	50%	50%	-1%	magic	conflux	Stoneskin  spellgives +3 extra defense
Edric       	206	96	110	47%	47%	-1%	might	castle	Griffins
Calh         	128	62	66	48%	50%	-1%	might	inferno	Gogs
Jeddite       	122	57	65	47%	48%	-1%	magic	dungeon	Animate Dead spell
Gundula    	302	157	145	52%	53%	-1%	magic	stronghold	Offense skill
Pyre       	298	144	154	48%	50%	-1%	might	inferno	Ballista (above 4th level)
Xarfax          	104	50	54	48%	50%	-1%	magic	inferno	Fireball spell
Shakti    	950	440	510	46%	48%	-2%	might	dungeon	Troglodytes
Shiva        	184	95	89	52%	53%	-2%	might	stronghold	Rocs
Sandro          	105	50	55	48%	49%	-2%	magic	necropolis	Sorcery skill
Brissa       	142	69	73	49%	50%	-2%	magic	conflux	Haste spell
Zydar         	122	58	64	48%	50%	-2%	magic	inferno	Sorcery skill
Luna            	108	52	56	48%	50%	-2%	magic	conflux	Fire wall double damage
Theodorus       	107	50	57	47%	49%	-2%	magic	tower	Magi
Vidomina      	121	57	64	47%	49%	-2%	magic	necropolis	Necromancy skill
Tiva            	101	50	51	50%	52%	-2%	magic	fortress	Eagle Eye skill
Ciele        	129	62	67	48%	50%	-2%	magic	conflux	Magic arrow spell does 50% more damage
Kyrre       	239	121	118	51%	53%	-2%	might	rampart	Logistics skill
Xyron           	106	50	56	47%	50%	-2%	magic	inferno	Inferno spell
Caitlin      	191	86	105	45%	47%	-2%	magic	castle	+350 gold per day
Uland           	103	52	51	50%	53%	-2%	magic	rampart	Cure spell
Aeris          	115	58	57	50%	53%	-3%	magic	rampart	Pegasi
Pasis        	128	61	67	48%	50%	-3%	might	conflux	Psychic el. +3A, +3D
Cyra          	119	55	64	46%	49%	-3%	magic	tower	Haste spell
Mirlanda        	105	51	54	49%	52%	-3%	magic	fortress	Weakness spell
Zubin          	112	56	56	50%	53%	-3%	magic	stronghold	Precision spell
Astral        	116	53	63	46%	49%	-3%	magic	tower	Hypnotize spell
Gerwulf      	159	77	82	48%	52%	-3%	might	fortress	Ballista (above 4th level)
Coronius       	113	56	57	50%	53%	-3%	magic	rampart	Slayer spell
Malekith      	126	56	70	44%	48%	-3%	magic	dungeon	Sorcery skill
Jenova      	208	103	105	50%	53%	-3%	might	rampart	+350 gold per day
Styg            	108	52	56	48%	52%	-4%	magic	fortress	Sorcery skill
Saurug          	103	51	52	50%	53%	-4%	magic	stronghold	+1 Gem per day
Alagar       	122	60	62	49%	53%	-4%	magic	rampart	Ice Bolt spell
Melodia         	106	52	54	49%	53%	-4%	magic	rampart	Fortune spell
Malcom          	106	52	54	49%	53%	-4%	magic	rampart	Eagle Eye skill
Gem             	104	51	53	49%	53%	-4%	magic	rampart	First Aid skill
Isra          	126	57	69	45%	49%	-4%	might	necropolis	Necromancy skill
Oris            	104	51	53	49%	53%	-4%	magic	stronghold	Eagle Eye skill
Ryland        	121	59	62	49%	53%	-4%	might	rampart	Dendroid Guards
Solmyr       	173	77	96	45%	49%	-4%	magic	tower	Chain Lightning spell
Ignissa       	129	59	70	46%	50%	-5%	might	conflux	Fire el. +1A, +1D, +2Dmg
Vey             	109	53	56	49%	53%	-5%	magic	stronghold	Ogres
Terek        	158	76	82	48%	53%	-5%	magic	stronghold	Haste spell
Andra         	112	52	60	46%	52%	-5%	magic	fortress	Intelligence skill
Elleshar     	128	61	67	48%	53%	-5%	magic	rampart	Intelligence skill
Gird            	107	51	56	48%	53%	-6%	magic	stronghold	Sorcery skill
Christian   	246	103	143	42%	47%	-6%	might	castle	Ballista (above 4th level)
Deemer       	148	62	86	42%	48%	-6%	magic	dungeon	Meteor Shower spell
Tyris     	595	245	350	41%	47%	-6%	might	castle	Cavaliers
Clancy       	184	85	99	46%	53%	-7%	might	rampart	Unicorns
Loynis        	145	56	89	39%	47%	-9%	magic	castle	Prayer spell
Dessa        	167	74	93	44%	53%	-9%	magic	stronghold	Logistics skill

Code: Select all

town	adjwin%	win%	games	wins
stronghold	55%	55%	2903	1594
rampart	54%	54%	3052	1663
fortress	53%	53%	1843	974
conflux	51%	51%	474	242
inferno	49%	48%	636	307
tower	46%	46%	614	281
castle	46%	46%	2447	1121
dungeon	46%	46%	1585	724
necropolis	45%	41%	148	61

[adam77]

Sorry, but I do not see much point in this sheet...
How did town statistics come into picture?
Noone said the heroes were played with their own towns.
Also the statistics for not used heroes... I think it shows their strength that they are picked so few times. Adding 50 wins and 50 losses for a hero with <10 games? You can't be serious...

[Artas1984]

Mullich is the best hero in the whole game, there was no need for question to begin with. You don't realize that speed is the most important factor in the game above all?

[mikel123]

Sorry, but I do not see much point in this sheet...
How did town statistics come into picture?
Noone said the heroes were played with their own towns.

I don't know for sure if their hero statistics refer to the initial starting hero (which you can choose) or if it's the hero who wins the final battle to win the game. In fact, I'd assume it's the initial hero, since there isn't always a final battle in grail games or games where someone loses by not holding a city for 7 days. Not to mention, it's a pretty dumb strategy in Rampart, for example, to buy up 3 or 4 heroes on the first day of a game in hopes of getting Mullich.

Also the statistics for not used heroes... I think it shows their strength that they are picked so few times.

Yes, thank you for reiterating my statement when I said above:

One thing I couldn't account for, but I think is evident in the data, is the possibility that differently-skilled players could choose different heroes. For example, if all the noobs choose Dessa because OMG LOGISTICS, she will have a low winning percentage, but her true skill might be much higher.

Finally, you say:

Adding 50 wins and 50 losses for a hero with <10 games? You can't be serious...

If you don't understand why I include town stats, and don't understand why I add 50 wins and losses, just ask.

I include the town stats, as I said, because Mullich may win a lot because Archangels are so good. It seems pretty evident to me that you need to remove the town/unit strength from the equation if you want to determine the best hero.

As for the 50 wins and 50 losses... do you truly think a hero who is 4-0 is better than a hero who is 200-1? Well, the hero who is 4-0 has a better winning percentage... most likely though, they got a little lucky in this small sample size. It's called regression to the mean. I could explain further, but it doesn't sound like you're interested in learning.

[Bandobras Took]

Mullich is stupidly broken. Early game matters more than late game. Even if an offense or armorer specialist will be a better hero by level 20 or whatever (and even that's debatable, given the classes in question), Mullich is going to be more likely to have you in a winning position overall by that time. It doesn't matter how many Thunderbirds Crag Hack has pulled together if the Champions will simply run across the field and decimate them before they even get to move. Tazar's got a better chance since Fortress is built to withstand a combined offensive.

Again, though, as with any turn-based game of this nature, the early game has a bigger impact than anything else, and Mullich's speed advantage puts him way over the top there.