Tyris or Sir Mullich
Tyris or Sir Mullich
Who's the better Castle hero?
I've been sticking with Tyris because of the awesome Tactics, boost to cavaliers, and offense, but I'm wondering if Sir Mullich may be a better hero? He has +2 speed for all creatures, and automatic haste, so perhaps more speed is better than extra attack and offense?
Thanks.
EDIT: This is for HOMM3
I've been sticking with Tyris because of the awesome Tactics, boost to cavaliers, and offense, but I'm wondering if Sir Mullich may be a better hero? He has +2 speed for all creatures, and automatic haste, so perhaps more speed is better than extra attack and offense?
Thanks.
EDIT: This is for HOMM3
Mullich is easily the best Castle Hero, not only that, possibly the best hero in the game. +2 speed helps you amazingly from the start by turning normally slow pikemen and archers into very fast units which help you in fighting neutral stacks much more. This starting advantage is fantastic, as Tyris's ability doesn't really start to kick in until on higher levels, and +2 speed from mullich basically already gives Caveliers + Champions more damage (by jousting bonus)
Mulich stat wise is best hero, I don't even think that there can be any discussion about best hero, since mulich's spec is simply out of line compare to almost any other spec in game. Tyris on other hand is good hero with unit spec that a) is acquirable relatively late in game b) have good speed already so there is not that much need to boost it even more(rellatively boost is smaller than for slower unit, for example mulich would also boost slow, but extremely powerful crusaders), while mulich boost all units, not to mention twice as much as unit specialist. Also without saying it means that mulich is faster on world map.
Simply put Mulich should be banned from any game that is competitive due to being OP(and that NWC guy should be ashamed for blatant self insert with no background lore and insane spec), while Tyris ir just decent hero(pretty sure crusader spec is more useful but that can all be discussed).
Simply put Mulich should be banned from any game that is competitive due to being OP(and that NWC guy should be ashamed for blatant self insert with no background lore and insane spec), while Tyris ir just decent hero(pretty sure crusader spec is more useful but that can all be discussed).
- Salamandre
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Well can do math -
Armorer 15% damage reduction on expert + 5 % for each level. So on level 20 it will be 30 instead of 15. Quite good, but for single map game, level 20 is alot.
Mulich on other hand makes crusaders much more viable, as if they weren't damaging enough. Furthermore +2 speed also makes map movment faster that is extremely valuable, also for equal armies it will give first cast right to mulich rather than his opponent.
Yes armorer is extremely valuable skill, but it needs a lot of leveling to be effective, since on first 5-8, bonus wont be noticeable, while mulich affects game from first minute.
Armorer 15% damage reduction on expert + 5 % for each level. So on level 20 it will be 30 instead of 15. Quite good, but for single map game, level 20 is alot.
Mulich on other hand makes crusaders much more viable, as if they weren't damaging enough. Furthermore +2 speed also makes map movment faster that is extremely valuable, also for equal armies it will give first cast right to mulich rather than his opponent.
Yes armorer is extremely valuable skill, but it needs a lot of leveling to be effective, since on first 5-8, bonus wont be noticeable, while mulich affects game from first minute.
- Salamandre
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Yes, Mulich is a good hero till level 7-8, for little fights around your starting town. After that he is left far away by offense/armorer specialists. Once they have expert haste or slow, his bonus is vanishing, while their remains.
Try a test, Mulich lev 20 vs Tazar lev 20, same spells, same skills/creatures and you will see what I mean.
Try a test, Mulich lev 20 vs Tazar lev 20, same spells, same skills/creatures and you will see what I mean.
First of all mulich can learn armorer and offense too, so gap is not THAT big. Secondly by time they get level 20, mulich will have strategical advantage since he could have moved faster. Tactical value of +2 speed for all is also underestimated. With this reasoning heroes like Dessa and Gunnar would be owned by a mile but we all know that they are often banned and not because they are useless and they are trying to protect players from useless heroes in pool.
- Salamandre
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Only in competitive game play one could see exactly what are those heros advantages and bonuses. In World Cup League
http://www.heroes-iii.com/ (click on statistics)
after 8 years or playing, Sir Mulich is in 20th position as best hero. That takes in considerations their starting advantages (for example Shakti or Gurnisson specialties trigger a much better and faster development than Mulich), their capacity to learn good skills, and finally their capacity to win the final battle. Sir Mullich is a good hero for cleaning a few crypts at start, but later he will stagnate, as his specialty is not increasing exponentially, while most others do. Ivor for example, coming with extra elves, will give to the player a bunch of extra levels in the first week, and that is the time when the game is decided, except if the other has Tazar, Crag or Mephala, which will decide the later game. It is a pity the game was reduced to the offense/armorer specialty but it is the reality.
http://www.heroes-iii.com/ (click on statistics)
after 8 years or playing, Sir Mulich is in 20th position as best hero. That takes in considerations their starting advantages (for example Shakti or Gurnisson specialties trigger a much better and faster development than Mulich), their capacity to learn good skills, and finally their capacity to win the final battle. Sir Mullich is a good hero for cleaning a few crypts at start, but later he will stagnate, as his specialty is not increasing exponentially, while most others do. Ivor for example, coming with extra elves, will give to the player a bunch of extra levels in the first week, and that is the time when the game is decided, except if the other has Tazar, Crag or Mephala, which will decide the later game. It is a pity the game was reduced to the offense/armorer specialty but it is the reality.
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- Round Table Knight
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What you say is the most true. It depends really on map. However, for non-WoG maps, I'd like to consider Sir Mullich to be one of the best.
This really depends, of course, whether said hero would face something with more speed than their own troops or not. If for the whole map all you're against are walking deads and peasants, then Sir Mullich's specialty didn't seem all that useful compared to say, Orrin or Tyris..
This really depends, of course, whether said hero would face something with more speed than their own troops or not. If for the whole map all you're against are walking deads and peasants, then Sir Mullich's specialty didn't seem all that useful compared to say, Orrin or Tyris..
This is great data. But, it's biased a bit. For example, their rating system is somewhat dumb - it strongly rewards just using a hero a lot, since it gives points for wins AND losses, and ignores win percentage. Additionally, it is biased by the strength of the initial towns themselves.Salamandre wrote:Only in competitive game play one could see exactly what are those heros advantages and bonuses. In World Cup League
http://www.heroes-iii.com/ (click on statistics)
after 8 years or playing, Sir Mulich is in 20th position as best hero. That takes in considerations their starting advantages (for example Shakti or Gurnisson specialties trigger a much better and faster development than Mulich), their capacity to learn good skills, and finally their capacity to win the final battle. Sir Mullich is a good hero for cleaning a few crypts at start, but later he will stagnate, as his specialty is not increasing exponentially, while most others do. Ivor for example, coming with extra elves, will give to the player a bunch of extra levels in the first week, and that is the time when the game is decided, except if the other has Tazar, Crag or Mephala, which will decide the later game. It is a pity the game was reduced to the offense/armorer specialty but it is the reality.
I loaded this data into a spreadsheet and modified it in the following ways:
1) I took the hero data and added 100 average games (50 wins and 50 losses) to each character. Thus, a 4-0 character now has a record of 54-104, which is a more reasonable estimate of its skill. This is the hero's winning percentage.
2) I added up all of the hero records (without the 100 extra games), then added 100 average games (50 wins and 50 losses) to each town. The result was the winning percentage of the town.
3) Finally, I took the hero winning percentage and subtracted their town winning percentage, to try to isolate the skill of the hero themselves. For example, if a hero had a 54% win percentage, and their town had a 48% win percentage, I note their win percentage as 6%.
It's hard to parse the results of this, but some notes:
- might looks a lot better than magic
- for special types, it looks like the pecking order, best to worst, is:
- creature specials
- resource specials
- ballista special
- skill special
- spell special
- I think resource specials are weight down a lot by Saurug and his odd 1 gem per day
One thing I couldn't account for, but I think is evident in the data, is the possibility that differently-skilled players could choose different heroes. For example, if all the noobs choose Dessa because OMG LOGISTICS, she will have a low winning percentage, but her true skill might be much higher.
Not sure this will work, but complete data below:
Code: Select all
Heroes G W L adj_win% town final m/m town special
Damacon 173 94 79 54% 48% 6% might dungeon +350 gold per day
Sir Mullich 240 127 113 53% 47% 5% might castle +2 speed to all units
Gretchin 273 160 113 59% 53% 5% might stronghold Goblins
Dracon 129 70 59 54% 49% 5% magic tower Trains Enchanters
Sorsha 312 164 148 53% 47% 5% might castle Swordsmen
Alkin 380 215 165 57% 52% 5% might fortress Gorgons
Monere 226 124 102 55% 50% 5% might conflux Psychic el. +3A, +3D
Catherine 115 59 56 51% 47% 4% might castle Crusaders
Gurnisson 504 285 219 57% 53% 3% might stronghold Ballista (above 4th level)
Ivor 1528 854 674 56% 53% 3% might rampart Wood Elves
Orrin 760 382 378 50% 47% 3% might castle Archery skill
Vokial 104 54 50 52% 49% 3% might necropolis Vampires
Mutare 101 51 50 50% 48% 3% might dungeon Dragons get +5A, +5D
Gunnar 226 114 112 50% 48% 3% might dungeon Logistics skill
Cuthbert 104 52 52 50% 47% 3% magic castle Weakness spell
Grindan 139 73 66 53% 50% 2% magic conflux +350 gold per day
Geon 104 52 52 50% 48% 2% magic dungeon Eagle Eye skill
Lacus 149 78 71 52% 50% 2% might conflux Water el. +2A
Sylvia 107 53 54 50% 47% 2% might castle Navigation skill
Ingham 105 52 53 50% 47% 2% magic castle Monks or Zealots
Daremyth 110 56 54 51% 49% 2% magic tower Fortune spell
Iona 116 59 57 51% 49% 2% might tower Genies
Nymus 204 105 99 51% 50% 2% might inferno Pit Fiends
Yog 162 89 73 55% 53% 2% might stronghold Cyclopes
Fiona 119 61 58 51% 50% 2% might inferno Hell Hounds
Sephinroth 107 53 54 50% 48% 2% magic dungeon +1 Crystal per day
Charna 112 57 55 51% 49% 2% might necropolis Wights or Wraiths
Wystan 250 133 117 53% 52% 2% might fortress Lizardmen
Galthran 128 65 63 51% 49% 2% might necropolis Skeletons
Mephala 1203 655 548 54% 53% 2% might rampart Armorer skill
Torosar 141 71 70 50% 49% 1% might tower Ballista (above 4th level)
Valeska 575 281 294 49% 47% 1% might castle Archers
Broghild 185 98 87 53% 52% 1% might fortress Wyverns
Lorelei 116 57 59 49% 48% 1% might dungeon Harpies
Dace 330 162 168 49% 48% 1% might dungeon Minotaurs
Ignatius 134 68 66 51% 50% 1% might inferno Imps
Septienna 103 52 51 50% 49% 1% magic necropolis Death Ripple spell
Moandor 103 52 51 50% 49% 1% might necropolis Liches or Power Liches
Gelare 105 54 51 51% 50% 1% magic conflux +350 gold per day
Halon 104 52 52 50% 49% 1% magic tower Mysticism skill
Marius 196 99 97 51% 50% 1% might inferno Demons
Drakon 150 79 71 53% 52% 1% might fortress Gnolls
Crag Hack 1229 665 564 54% 53% 1% might stronghold Offense skill
Octavia 159 80 79 50% 50% 1% might inferno +350 gold per day
Krellion 191 103 88 54% 53% 1% might stronghold Ogres
Ajit 144 70 74 49% 48% 1% might dungeon Beholders
Straker 102 51 51 50% 49% 1% might necropolis Walking Dead
Nimbus 106 53 53 50% 49% 1% magic necropolis Eagle Eye skill
Thane 111 55 56 50% 49% 1% might tower Genies
Piquedram 105 52 53 50% 49% 1% might tower Gargoyles
Sanya 106 51 55 48% 47% 1% magic castle Eagle Eye skill
Serena 101 50 51 50% 49% 1% magic tower Eagle Eye skill
Tyraxor 544 292 252 54% 53% 1% might stronghold Wolf Riders
Calid 112 56 56 50% 50% 0% magic inferno +1 Sulfur per day
Olema 102 51 51 50% 50% 0% magic inferno Weakness spell
Ash 104 52 52 50% 50% 0% magic inferno Bloodlust spell
Synca 116 56 60 48% 48% 0% might dungeon Manticores
Adelaide 117 56 61 48% 47% 0% magic castle Frost Ring spell
Jabarkas 254 136 118 54% 53% 0% might stronghold Orcs
Rissa 124 61 63 49% 49% 0% might tower +1 Mercury per day
Aine 118 58 60 49% 49% 0% magic tower +350 gold per day
Xsi 101 50 51 50% 49% 0% magic necropolis Stone Skin spell
Kalt 115 58 57 50% 50% 0% might conflux Water el. +2A
Thunar 117 59 58 50% 50% 0% might conflux Magma el. +2A, +1D, +5Dmg
Thorgrim 162 86 76 53% 53% 0% might rampart Resistance skill
Neela 405 198 207 49% 49% 0% might tower Armorer skill
Axsis 103 51 52 50% 50% 0% magic inferno Mysticism skill
Bron 244 126 118 52% 52% 0% might fortress Basilisks
Korbac 221 114 107 52% 52% 0% might fortress Serpent
Fafner 123 60 63 49% 49% 0% might tower Nagas
Lord Haart 114 56 58 49% 49% 0% might necropolis lack Knights get +5A, +5D, +10Dmg
Clavius 108 53 55 49% 49% 0% might necropolis +350 gold per day
Ufretin 110 58 52 53% 53% 0% might rampart Dwarves
Tamika 104 51 53 49% 49% 0% might necropolis Black Knights
Nagash 102 50 52 49% 49% 0% magic necropolis +350 gold per day
Erdamon 112 56 56 50% 50% 0% might conflux Magma el. +2A, +1D, +5Dmg
Aenain 110 55 55 50% 50% 0% magic conflux Disrupting Ray spell works +2
Fiur 158 79 79 50% 50% 0% might conflux Fire and Energy Elementals
Inteus 102 51 51 50% 50% 0% magic conflux Bloodlust spell
Adela 123 58 65 47% 47% 0% magic castle Bless spell
Ayden 120 59 61 49% 50% 0% magic inferno Intelligence skill
Alamar 120 57 63 48% 48% 0% magic dungeon Resurrection spell
Arlach 196 93 103 47% 48% 0% might dungeon Ballista (above 4th level)
Tazar 1026 525 501 51% 52% -1% might fortress Armorer skill
Aislinn 109 53 56 49% 49% -1% magic necropolis Meteor Shower spell
Josephine 112 54 58 48% 49% -1% might tower Golems
Darkstorn 106 50 56 47% 48% -1% magic dungeon Stone Skin spell
Voy 102 52 50 51% 52% -1% magic fortress Navigation skill
Rashka 125 61 64 49% 50% -1% might inferno Efreet
Labetha 105 52 53 50% 50% -1% magic conflux Stoneskin spellgives +3 extra defense
Edric 206 96 110 47% 47% -1% might castle Griffins
Calh 128 62 66 48% 50% -1% might inferno Gogs
Jeddite 122 57 65 47% 48% -1% magic dungeon Animate Dead spell
Gundula 302 157 145 52% 53% -1% magic stronghold Offense skill
Pyre 298 144 154 48% 50% -1% might inferno Ballista (above 4th level)
Xarfax 104 50 54 48% 50% -1% magic inferno Fireball spell
Shakti 950 440 510 46% 48% -2% might dungeon Troglodytes
Shiva 184 95 89 52% 53% -2% might stronghold Rocs
Sandro 105 50 55 48% 49% -2% magic necropolis Sorcery skill
Brissa 142 69 73 49% 50% -2% magic conflux Haste spell
Zydar 122 58 64 48% 50% -2% magic inferno Sorcery skill
Luna 108 52 56 48% 50% -2% magic conflux Fire wall double damage
Theodorus 107 50 57 47% 49% -2% magic tower Magi
Vidomina 121 57 64 47% 49% -2% magic necropolis Necromancy skill
Tiva 101 50 51 50% 52% -2% magic fortress Eagle Eye skill
Ciele 129 62 67 48% 50% -2% magic conflux Magic arrow spell does 50% more damage
Kyrre 239 121 118 51% 53% -2% might rampart Logistics skill
Xyron 106 50 56 47% 50% -2% magic inferno Inferno spell
Caitlin 191 86 105 45% 47% -2% magic castle +350 gold per day
Uland 103 52 51 50% 53% -2% magic rampart Cure spell
Aeris 115 58 57 50% 53% -3% magic rampart Pegasi
Pasis 128 61 67 48% 50% -3% might conflux Psychic el. +3A, +3D
Cyra 119 55 64 46% 49% -3% magic tower Haste spell
Mirlanda 105 51 54 49% 52% -3% magic fortress Weakness spell
Zubin 112 56 56 50% 53% -3% magic stronghold Precision spell
Astral 116 53 63 46% 49% -3% magic tower Hypnotize spell
Gerwulf 159 77 82 48% 52% -3% might fortress Ballista (above 4th level)
Coronius 113 56 57 50% 53% -3% magic rampart Slayer spell
Malekith 126 56 70 44% 48% -3% magic dungeon Sorcery skill
Jenova 208 103 105 50% 53% -3% might rampart +350 gold per day
Styg 108 52 56 48% 52% -4% magic fortress Sorcery skill
Saurug 103 51 52 50% 53% -4% magic stronghold +1 Gem per day
Alagar 122 60 62 49% 53% -4% magic rampart Ice Bolt spell
Melodia 106 52 54 49% 53% -4% magic rampart Fortune spell
Malcom 106 52 54 49% 53% -4% magic rampart Eagle Eye skill
Gem 104 51 53 49% 53% -4% magic rampart First Aid skill
Isra 126 57 69 45% 49% -4% might necropolis Necromancy skill
Oris 104 51 53 49% 53% -4% magic stronghold Eagle Eye skill
Ryland 121 59 62 49% 53% -4% might rampart Dendroid Guards
Solmyr 173 77 96 45% 49% -4% magic tower Chain Lightning spell
Ignissa 129 59 70 46% 50% -5% might conflux Fire el. +1A, +1D, +2Dmg
Vey 109 53 56 49% 53% -5% magic stronghold Ogres
Terek 158 76 82 48% 53% -5% magic stronghold Haste spell
Andra 112 52 60 46% 52% -5% magic fortress Intelligence skill
Elleshar 128 61 67 48% 53% -5% magic rampart Intelligence skill
Gird 107 51 56 48% 53% -6% magic stronghold Sorcery skill
Christian 246 103 143 42% 47% -6% might castle Ballista (above 4th level)
Deemer 148 62 86 42% 48% -6% magic dungeon Meteor Shower spell
Tyris 595 245 350 41% 47% -6% might castle Cavaliers
Clancy 184 85 99 46% 53% -7% might rampart Unicorns
Loynis 145 56 89 39% 47% -9% magic castle Prayer spell
Dessa 167 74 93 44% 53% -9% magic stronghold Logistics skill
Code: Select all
town adjwin% win% games wins
stronghold 55% 55% 2903 1594
rampart 54% 54% 3052 1663
fortress 53% 53% 1843 974
conflux 51% 51% 474 242
inferno 49% 48% 636 307
tower 46% 46% 614 281
castle 46% 46% 2447 1121
dungeon 46% 46% 1585 724
necropolis 45% 41% 148 61
Sorry, but I do not see much point in this sheet...
How did town statistics come into picture?
Noone said the heroes were played with their own towns.
Also the statistics for not used heroes... I think it shows their strength that they are picked so few times. Adding 50 wins and 50 losses for a hero with <10 games? You can't be serious...
How did town statistics come into picture?
Noone said the heroes were played with their own towns.
Also the statistics for not used heroes... I think it shows their strength that they are picked so few times. Adding 50 wins and 50 losses for a hero with <10 games? You can't be serious...
Mullich is the best hero in the whole game, there was no need for question to begin with. You don't realize that speed is the most important factor in the game above all?
Heroes franchise was not about the free actions of Heroes or monsters, it was not about 3D of shiny graphics either, it was about diversity and balance, simplicity of gameplay and realistic picture, strategy in it's purest form. That's why Heroes 3 will be the greatest game of all, because only Heroes 3 has all those qualities together, no matter which one you personally like more. This statement is unquestionable, uncriticized and undeniable .
I don't know for sure if their hero statistics refer to the initial starting hero (which you can choose) or if it's the hero who wins the final battle to win the game. In fact, I'd assume it's the initial hero, since there isn't always a final battle in grail games or games where someone loses by not holding a city for 7 days. Not to mention, it's a pretty dumb strategy in Rampart, for example, to buy up 3 or 4 heroes on the first day of a game in hopes of getting Mullich.adam77 wrote:Sorry, but I do not see much point in this sheet...
How did town statistics come into picture?
Noone said the heroes were played with their own towns.
Yes, thank you for reiterating my statement when I said above:Also the statistics for not used heroes... I think it shows their strength that they are picked so few times.
Finally, you say:One thing I couldn't account for, but I think is evident in the data, is the possibility that differently-skilled players could choose different heroes. For example, if all the noobs choose Dessa because OMG LOGISTICS, she will have a low winning percentage, but her true skill might be much higher.
If you don't understand why I include town stats, and don't understand why I add 50 wins and losses, just ask.Adding 50 wins and 50 losses for a hero with <10 games? You can't be serious...
I include the town stats, as I said, because Mullich may win a lot because Archangels are so good. It seems pretty evident to me that you need to remove the town/unit strength from the equation if you want to determine the best hero.
As for the 50 wins and 50 losses... do you truly think a hero who is 4-0 is better than a hero who is 200-1? Well, the hero who is 4-0 has a better winning percentage... most likely though, they got a little lucky in this small sample size. It's called regression to the mean. I could explain further, but it doesn't sound like you're interested in learning.
- Bandobras Took
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Mullich is stupidly broken. Early game matters more than late game. Even if an offense or armorer specialist will be a better hero by level 20 or whatever (and even that's debatable, given the classes in question), Mullich is going to be more likely to have you in a winning position overall by that time. It doesn't matter how many Thunderbirds Crag Hack has pulled together if the Champions will simply run across the field and decimate them before they even get to move. Tazar's got a better chance since Fortress is built to withstand a combined offensive.
Again, though, as with any turn-based game of this nature, the early game has a bigger impact than anything else, and Mullich's speed advantage puts him way over the top there.
Again, though, as with any turn-based game of this nature, the early game has a bigger impact than anything else, and Mullich's speed advantage puts him way over the top there.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.
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