Spell discusions

[gravyluvr]

Creature Boosts for the Naturists...

Leprachauns in mass numbers should get Mass Fortune
Satyrs in mass numbers should get Mass Mirth
Water Elementals in Mass Numbers should get Mass Slow, Mass Weekness

Most of the time these creatures are summoned and don't usually travel in the main army so it shouldn't be a balance issue.

[HodgePodge]

... Order needs Frost more than Chaos Torch ...

I agree. Chaos already has so many damage spells, that another one probably wouldn't get used much because everyone would still use all their old favorites (mine are: Lightning, Fireball, Implosion, Chain Lightning & Disintegrate). I'm glad the Equilibris Team added some non-damage spells to Chaos too, especially Hydra Health.

While I know that Order Magic is mostly mind control type spells, Frost would come in handy because Ice Bolt is pretty weak & Magic Fist is practically useless.

[theLuckyDragon]

Then can't the existing spells be tweaked? If they can, then why add another?

[theGryphon]

@HodgePodge
Actually, Torch Attack as I proposed it, is not a dd spell. It's cast on the enemy and makes their attack a fire-based attack, so that friends with fire immunity receive half the damage from them.

@GOW
Do Black Dragons have fire immunity (other than magic immunity)? I mean, for example do they receive half damage from fire-based attacks (efreets, phoenix, etc)? I guess not. So, they should receive full damage from the Torch'ed Titans.

@Black Ghost
I don't think Torch is inferior to dd spells (and it's not an "ability", it's a "curse" ). In late game dd spells are almost useless unless against heroes without GM MR. But, think about it, Torch can be a tie-breaker. So, I think it's far superior let alone inferior. A substantial opposition is that it's kind of a defensive spell. I would like to hear more opinions about it, but think thoroughly please

All in all, I find that dd spells become obsolete in the late game. So, since Chaos has many of them, the Mage Guild becomes very weak later. They're left fewer really useful spells than other Guilds. So, I think Chaos desperately needs some non-dd spells.

I certainly agree that Order needs more and more cold based spells. Frost is a perfect one, let's wait and see if the Team can make it work (apparently there is an issue about whether to make it potion based or not).

@TheUnknown
My mistake, sorry! I should've named the spell "Fire Resistance", since Fire Shield exists and is substantially different. But, Fire Resistance is too much of a defensive spell as many pointed out.
And, there is a typo in my post, I understand that you mean twice.

@gravyluvr
Mass Fortune for a lvl1 may be an overkill. It has counterspells, but otherwise Mass Fortune changes the odds (I liked that ).
But I agree boosting Satyrs and Water Elementals. Resp., Mass Fervor and Mass Weakness/Mass Slow are nice.

[Black Ghost]

@gravyluvr

eprachauns in mass numbers should get Mass Fortune

L. dooesn't have spellcaster description. They can cast it only once (3 mana)

Satyrs in mass numbers should get Mass Mirth

They're better than L. they mirth twice per combat. like l. they arent spellcasters.
Btw. should they cast 4th lev. mass spells, they need 8mana. and it's too much (4x luck with leprechaun)

Water Elementals in Mass Numbers should get Mass Slow, Mass Weekness

If I good remember they have. You need 40 in one stack.

All in all, I find that dd spells become obsolete in the late game. So, since Chaos has many of them, the Mage Guild becomes very weak later. They're left fewer really useful spells than other Guilds. So, I think Chaos desperately needs some non-dd spells.

I wouldn't said so. Chaos magic doesn't suck in late game, as there are lots of really good non-dd spells. And for GM MR heroes you have lot of ways to kill them (F.Strike, Reflex on unit, Medusa's Stone Gaze;P...)

[Metathron]

Thanks for the reply, Dalai. I can see your reasoning as to why Fairy Dragonns don't get chain lightning, and I concur.

As to chaos magic needing any defensive spells: I don't think it should receive any, it would only dilute its uniqueness.

As to water elementals, they indeed have mass weakness in greater numbers. They have no mass slow because they have no slow to begin with; they cast Fatigue which is a somewhat limited version of the Slow spell, and it doesn't come in a mass variety.

I don't like the idea of Satyrs having mass fervor. Like has been said already, they are not spell casters.

[cherko]

Creature Boosts for the Naturists...

Leprachauns in mass numbers should get Mass Fortune
Satyrs in mass numbers should get Mass Mirth
Water Elementals in Mass Numbers should get Mass Slow, Mass Weekness

Most of the time these creatures are summoned and don't usually travel in the main army so it shouldn't be a balance issue.

You don't think so? I do. Sure, Leprechauns could need a late-game boost, and satyrs are weak, but WE would be way too strong! Who's gonna choose good ol' fire elementals in the CP, when all the other elements are way stronger?

[Metathron]

Quick question. I was wondering why the Guardian Angel spell was taken down a notch, and Hand of Death is still up there on level 5, when they both seem like the same spells with opposite effects. Is it because Guardian Angel can be dispelled/cancelled and HoD can't be undone (aside from Resurrection, but that's another matter)?

[Dalai]

Quick question. I was wondering why the Guardian Angel spell was taken down a notch, and Hand of Death is still up there on level 5, when they both seem like the same spells with opposite effects. Is it because Guardian Angel can be dispelled/cancelled and HoD can't be undone (aside from Resurrection, but that's another matter)?

This is the main reason.
Second one - we added Resurrection and got 4 spells on level 5. One should have gone. GA was the weakest, besides it was the only one which was affected by M-to-M spells (1-st reason).

[V3N0M]

I reviewed my idea so that if you have gm spirituality and gm nat magic(or summoning) then you get summon angel spell.

[Metathron]

I'm also having a little difficulty understanding mass cancellation as a level 5 spell, it seems far inferior to me to be ranked so high. For example, compare mass exorcism and mass cancellation: the first takes negative spellls off of your troops, the second takes good ones off of the enemy - basically seems like they have almost the same effect, but they differ by two levels. Also, in my experience (mass) cancellation is almost never usable against computer opponents.

[Dalai]

Also, in my experience (mass) cancellation is almost never usable against computer opponents.

Exactly. But this spell is extremely useful against Human plaer.

In big final battle each army consists of several heroes and 1 or 2 creature stacks. Heroes often have high MR. They always have ImmoPotions on them. And taking out heroes early is often the most important thing.

Here mass cancel becomes very useful. You make enemy army "naked" in just one spell. They become more concerned about surviving the next hit, than about causing troubles to you. You have a choice whom to take out. If they drink Immo again - you cast MC again.

Basically, having MC means that all blesses, including Immo, become almost useless. If you have MR - curses become useless too!

P.S. Before we lifted MC from 4-th level to 5-th level, in MP-games people banned artifacts Death spellbook and 4-th-lvl spellbook.

[Blueman]

I totally agree with you, Dalai, as cancellation, dispel and steal enchantment are extremely useful in multiplayer games. The mass versions are devastating. You can try to buff your troops during several turns and it everything (including the wasted spell points) are gone due to mass cancellation. I have lost battles due to this spell and its "upgrade", steal all echantments.
Also, it was a good thing to raise the level for the Cancellation spell too.

[Metathron]

Also, in my experience (mass) cancellation is almost never usable against computer opponents.

Exactly. But this spell is extremely useful against Human plaer.

In big final battle each army consists of several heroes and 1 or 2 creature stacks. Heroes often have high MR. They always have ImmoPotions on them. And taking out heroes early is often the most important thing.

Here mass cancel becomes very useful. You make enemy army "naked" in just one spell. They become more concerned about surviving the next hit, than about causing troubles to you. You have a choice whom to take out. If they drink Immo again - you cast MC again.

Basically, having MC means that all blesses, including Immo, become almost useless. If you have MR - curses become useless too!

P.S. Before we lifted MC from 4-th level to 5-th level, in MP-games people banned artifacts Death spellbook and 4-th-lvl spellbook.

I can see your point to an extent, especially about MC being useful against enemy heroes, but when we take into consideration that steal all enchantments, a spell that not only cancels all beneficial enemy spells but transfers them to your own army, it becomes apparent that these two spells should not be in the same category, i.e. Mass dispel L3, Mass cancellation L4, Steal all enchantments L5. Just my opinion.

[wimfrits]

it becomes apparent that these two spells should not be in the same category, i.e. Mass dispel L3, Mass cancellation L4, Steal all enchantments L5. Just my opinion.

There simply aren't enough spell levels to get only fully equal spells in the same school. The point is that mass cancellation is considered more equal to the average lvl5 spell than the average lvl4 spell. That's why it is put in the 5th level.

[Dalai]

but when we take into consideration that steal all enchantments, a spell that not only cancels all beneficial enemy spells but transfers them to your own army, it becomes apparent that these two spells should not be in the same category, i.e. Mass dispel L3, Mass cancellation L4, Steal all enchantments L5. Just my opinion.

Let's go back to the situation I described - big battle. Each army has 6 heroes and 1 stack of 4-th level creatures. Each hero in each army has Immo Potion on him.

You have two major spells - Mass Cancellation and Steal All. Mass Cancel will remove all Immo Potions from ALL enemy heroes and make it just disappear. But what will Steal All do? It will take ONE Immo Potion, give it to your creature stack as a Guardian Angel, 1 life. And.... that's it! There are no targets in your army who can accept the stolen Immo! 5 heroes in enemy army will remain untouched!

Every spell has it's usage. Spells are often difficult to compare. But most experienced MP-players welcomed MC on the top level.

[Metathron]

I think such a situation as you describe very rarely comes into play. I still disagree, but that's fine, let's call it quits.

[csarmi]

I have lost battles due to this spell [Mass cancellation] and its "upgrade", steal all echantments.
Also, it was a good thing to raise the level for the Cancellation spell too.

Mass Steal is not an upgrade of mass cancellation. Actually; it is often much less useful. For example, you both have 5 heroes and two creature stacks; with immo potion cast all of them. Now Mass Steal will only steal two immo potions, because there is no place left for the other 3 guardian angel spells! You can only steal what you don't have already. So if you cast Mass Fortune, you'll be unable to steal the enemy's fortune spells, etc...

And it is not a rare situations. The one I described here (5 heroes, 2 stacks) is the most common end-fight army in multiplayer armies.

There is one more advantage for the mass cancel spell. It is usually cast by assasins and those have +3 speed. They often go before creature stacks... Mass Cancel, then hit enemy tactician with your devils...

[csarmi]

I see what you mean now, I think. IMHO, torched attack would be too powerful even for a level 5 spell if it converts all of an enemy army's physical attack into a fire based attack. Black dragons would be imortal.

First, it would normally convert only 50% damage.

2nd, Black Dragons have no fire immunity. They take normal damage from fire based attack (and they have a fire attack themselves).

That's why Black Dragons lose to Phoenixes so badly.

[csarmi]

You don't think so? I do. Sure, Leprechauns could need a late-game boost, and satyrs are weak, but WE would be way too strong! Who's gonna choose good ol' fire elementals in the CP, when all the other elements are way stronger?

1)Leprechauns stay good till the end of the game and satyrs too.
2) Water Elementals are already string, I agree, but
3) Creature Portal is about Mantises, Mantises, Mantises already; picking anything else is dumb. Well, maybe, in special cases you can buy a water or two. After waters come airs and fires and earth is the most useless one. Waters are already way stronger than fires so whats the point? Elementals are fine btw. Just dont pick them over mantises...