Spell discusions

[theGryphon]

Life Rip (Vortex): The effect can be tuned so that it's not too powerful. And it's not a counterpart to Holy Shout as I see it. I think death magic needs to be more aggressive. This one is just an extended version of Life Drain.

Terror: First let's get it right, Terror is not dispelled when attacked but it lasts 2 turns as opposed to Blind's 3. I think they should be same level spells.

Raise Bone Dragons: What do you think about it?

Animate Dead: You may be right BG!

Magic Mirror: I don't find it useful as it is now. What I propose is that it can deny any magic at 100% with e.g. 25% probability. This is substantially different from Magic Resistance, since a target with MR 50% receives 50% of the damage from a magic arrow for instance. I suggest a perfect "mirror" with a chance of 25%, otherwise it receives the magic in full. In any case, it still reflects the magic.

Endurance: I don't suggest improving the potion, just the spell to +4 movement bonus for instance. We can even rename it (Poison vs. Poison attack example). I think Life faction is still very slow on the Adventure Map, that's why.

[Trang Oul]

I think we need some damage spells for Nature Megic.

[Black Ghost]

Life Rip (Vortex): The effect can be tuned so that it's not too powerful. And it's not a counterpart to Holy Shout as I see it.

Life drain & holy shout seem to be counterpart spells a bit. Both affect the factions natural enemies and deal minor dmg. However, life drain seems to be a bit better as it affects 2 allignmenst, and heals the hero.

What would you say if Life Vortex [4th] would be a counterpart spell to Martyr?
Target enemy unit won't loose HP due to melee&ranged attacks. Dmg will be redirected to another enemy unit.
Or mabye it's really bad idea? Like to hear any comments:)

Raise Bone Dragons: What do you think about it?

hmm, difficult to say... The idea is really worth of deeper considering
But if I were to get Raise Bone D. or Raise Vampire at 4th lev., I wouldn't hesitate and would take R.Vampires. Compared with Bones, Vamps seem to be far weaker, but analysing RAISE spells description you'll see it's about 5x more useful. Why?:
-you can raise V. from any living, any level creature...
As for Bones there are only 3 living dragons, and i'm not sure if you can animate Black D. (immune to magic)...
-you have to kill creatures with at least 275 total HP so from 1 Fairy D. you won't get Bone D. Btw from 1 Mega D. only 1 Bone D. is possible to get according to raising mechanic
-creatures are raised from dead units. It's really hard to kill enough dragons, what's more they arent numerous, so you won't raise lot's of them
-after the battle they vanish... the requirement's for the spell ate far too high for the advantage of only-battle B.Dragons.

The idea is great and in the Necromancy Menu works really good. As a spell it wouldn't work fine as long as the mechanic is strict based on 'raise' rule.

hink Life faction is still very slow on the Adventure Map

I don't. Of course depends on units in army like ballista or catapult...
But with Angels+crusaders, and/or tactic Life IS very fast. Plus Endurance it's probably 2nd army in mov. after Chaos with Pathfinding.
Btw. if Endurance has 4, Potion of E. should also heve 4 mov points.

Terror is not dispelled when attacked but it lasts 2 turns as opposed to Blind's 3. I think they should be same level spells.

Hmm I suppose that the fact it's not dispelld makes it better as blind. You can terror, and give 2 attacks either phisical or magical. By blind there's only 1 possible attack... IMO this is more important than +1 turn duration... Moreover Death isn't particularly as controlling as Order, so such spell should be possible on M. and encourage to cast other spells like raise, curses, etc. on lower levels...

his is substantially different from Magic Resistance, since a target with MR 50% receives 50% of the damage from a magic arrow for instance.

You're right but 50%MR gives you 50% chance to deny any non-dd spell as well.
And Chaos doesn't seem to be M.Resistant faction, rather frantic magic (mana flare, mana vortex building, mirror)

[MistWeaver]

My only wish is to do something with hypnotize. Like reducing it to 1 turn .. or making it depended on stack-size.

Its painful to see how hundread of your angels going under enemy controll for 3 turns, killing your heroes and monks.

The point is - how we get reinforcements on the battle field:
summoning - is number based
ressurecting - is number based
hypnotize - is NOT number based
So, some level 25 mage can take thousands! of units under control for 3! turns.

[theGryphon]

You are absolutely right! I believe we could remove the LOS requirement and dispel it once the target stack attacks. How about it Dalai?

[Black Ghost]

IMO 'hypnotize' may stay without changes.
There are few ways to prevent spellcaster form hypnotizing the unit or to dispell it... It's Order's backbone and essence.
But if you insist on lowering it's greatness it may autimaticaly dispell when enchanted unit recives dmg (like blind spell)

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

IMO 'hypnotize' may stay without changes.
There are few ways to prevent spellcaster form hypnotizing the unit or to dispell it... It's Order's backbone and essence.
But if you insist on lowering it's greatness it may autimaticaly dispell when enchanted unit recives dmg (like blind spell)

That is an interesting way of lowering its power somewhat and it is better than limiting it to only one turn IMHO, and would give Order the option of keeping the stack out of battlle for a couple of turns before attacking with it or using the stack immediately and then losing control of it.

GOW

[chaosgorgon]

i agree with Misth, hyno should be number based

[Akul]

My only wish is to do something with hypnotize. Like reducing it to 1 turn .. or making it depended on stack-size.

Its painful to see how hundread of your angels going under enemy controll for 3 turns, killing your heroes and monks.

The point is - how we get reinforcements on the battle field:
summoning - is number based
ressurecting - is number based
hypnotize - is NOT number based
So, some level 25 mage can take thousands! of units under control for 3! turns.

Good strateger would kill the mage first.
Making hypnotize number based would be like removing the spell from the game and make Order Magic the weakest school. I don't recall when I cast Hypnotize in H3 (where it is number based).

[MistWeaver]

There are few ways to prevent spellcaster form hypnotizing the unit or to dispell it...

You dont get it.
You see, any other spellcaster can be prevented from casting AS WELL. But if you fail to achieve that, there is a fine line between summon of 10 phoenixes and making your strongest stack (with maybe hundreads of creatures) fighting against you for 3 turns. Furthermore on the next turn those phoenixes could be fighting aganst you as well.

Now - both are level 5 spells. It is quite clear that having hypno is muuuch better than summon (or even any other spell) Thats what we can call disbalance.

[MistWeaver]

Good strateger would kill the mage first.

Good strateger would know something about square formation. And that it is allmost impossible to kill high level mage if he stands in third line (and surely has potion of immortality on him) in first round. And one round is enough.

aking hypnotize number based would be like removing the spell from the game

What "number" means for you ? How about lvl 25 GM Order can hypnotize 50 titans ? Its allready a number. But it is a limit already.

I don't recall when I cast Hypnotize in H3 (where it is number based).

In H3 those hypno numbers were just too small.

and make Order Magic the weakest school

Oh yes, especially with its Phantom/Illusion, Berserk, Dispell & Town portal.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

There are few ways to prevent spellcaster form hypnotizing the unit or to dispell it...

You dont get it.
You see, any other spellcaster can be prevented from casting AS WELL. But if you fail to achieve that, there is a fine line between summon of 10 phoenixes and making your strongest stack (with maybe hundreads of creatures) fighting against you for 3 turns. Furthermore on the next turn those phoenixes could be fighting aganst you as well.

Now - both are level 5 spells. It is quite clear that having hypno is muuuch better than summon (or even any other spell) Thats what we can call disbalance.

Not all stacks can be hypnotized. You can always cast summon phoenix/faery dragon/mantis. When you summon faery dragon you get another spellcaster who can disable stacks himself (confusion), freeing up your druid to cast other spells.

So hypnotism is better in some situations and summons are better in others.

GOW

[Akul]

Good strateger would know something about square formation. And that it is allmost impossible to kill high level mage if he stands in third line (and surely has potion of immortality on him) in first round. And one round is enough.

Great. Even more challenge.

What "number" means for you ? How about lvl 25 GM Order can hypnotize 50 titans ? Its allready a number. But it is a limit already.

Now thats a stupid reply. Why do you even want a limit if it won't change the gameplay. It looks to me like a loos of time.

Oh yes, especially with its Phantom/Illusion, Berserk, Dispell & Town portal.

Those spells are good, but for the magic-master school, they are still too weak.

[Akul]

There are few ways to prevent spellcaster form hypnotizing the unit or to dispell it...

You dont get it.
You see, any other spellcaster can be prevented from casting AS WELL. But if you fail to achieve that, there is a fine line between summon of 10 phoenixes and making your strongest stack (with maybe hundreads of creatures) fighting against you for 3 turns. Furthermore on the next turn those phoenixes could be fighting aganst you as well.

Now - both are level 5 spells. It is quite clear that having hypno is muuuch better than summon (or even any other spell) Thats what we can call disbalance.

Life can cast Divine Intervention to re-heal the troops and reszrect dead hero. Perhaps even exorcism works on hypnotized creatures.

Nature can summon creatures and cast anti-magic spell with gives 100% MR to the target.

Death can kill the troops with Hand of Death so that hypnotizer can't use it.

Chaos can cast destruction magics upon the hypnotizer and kill him that way.

Everyone can kill the hypnotizer with a good strategy.

[Metathron]

Shouldn't the fairy dragons, in larger numbers, receive the chain lightning spell? Sure, they get cloud of confusion when you have many of them, but genies, a level 3 creature, get mass slow and mass fervor in greater numbers, two level 4 spells, so I think it could be a good idea to implement a level 5 spell for a level 4 creature.

[cherko]

Hypnotize should stay as it is! With good strategy, spells like Sanctuary for an example can be twice as powerful!

[Black Ghost]

1)

Shouldn't the fairy dragons, in larger numbers, receive the chain lightning spell? Sure, they get cloud of confusion when you have many of them, but genies, a level 3 creature, get mass slow and mass fervor in greater numbers, two level 4 spells, so I think it could be a good idea to implement a level 5 spell for a level 4 creature.

With words a huge smile appeard on my face like ^____________^
Metathron's right. E.Sorceress can cast lev 5 spell Mass Cancellation. so why F.Dragon have to be worse?

If I've correctly counted it would be for Chain lightning 88dmg/f.dragon. Hmm that's lot (E.Sorc Implosion deals 90/e.s), normal lightning ~67/F.D
However, it would reguire at least 15 F.D in one stack, so it would be fine. Additionally dmg can be lowered to ~77/F.D.

As for Cloud of Confusion it should require 10 F.D to cast instead 15. Like in Spellcaster description 5xW.Growth) => watch Genies, Magi

Last but not least, F/D's xp should be increased due to ability to cast Chain l. to ~630xp.

All above numbers may be changed to avoid overpowering F.D.

2) As for Hynpotize, I agree with Sauron and GOW.
Good player will quickly get rid of the spell or smash enemy before he'll cast it.
Btw. this game require thinking during the battles. You need to predict the enemy moves and try to counter them. Any xp or HP limits are ridiculous.

[theGryphon]

I agree with BG that Cloud should require 10 FDs, not 15. CL may be a bit too overpowered. If you give them the CL, then you should decrease their HP. From 220 to 170 for instance, maybe even lower. ES can cast implosion but they have a HP of 100! Still, I'd like to see CL in FD's book! But balancing it may be an issue...

[TheUnknown]

Hello guys.

I root for CL for F Dragons. It's cool and can be prety balanced. As B G said perhaps little dmg reduction but it will
have nice mana cost. Also in late game when all the heroes have GM magic res. some of your units will get hit
as well

I also wanted to suggest a little crusader nerfing either the HP or the movement becose they grow more now.

It whould be interesting to see the monks as spellcasters.What I'm proposing is that they should have:
- some weaker ranged atack (ranged spellcaster ) or have base atack magic but weak like M. Fist
- spells like holy word and other spells for blessing (bless and armor, X5 mass bless, celestial armor) or
healing (heal, X5 mass heal) depending of the balance point of view.

Seamanship should get the hero some privilegies in some things on land for example it could enchance the scouting
skill similar sorcery in WOG, being able to see what have the treasure chests, the resourcepiles and potion wagons.
On sea seamnship is great with equil. and "no whirpool penalty" is a great idea.

[Black Ghost]

@TheUnknown
Welcome
As for the spellcaster Monk I considering very few spells ~2 just not to waste hero's turn on example: single Exorcism. But still should remain typical ranged unit.
Mabye even one spell (which doesn't require spellcaster mechanic) like satyr or leprechaun would be nice:
MONK
ranged, d.ward, [spell]
IMO any healing wouldn't be fine. Attacking dozens of monks which heal themselves would be a bit iritating.
Exor?, Chaos or D. Ward? Martyr ?

@gryphonheart
Well, you're right that F.D will be extremly powerful but 170HP is too drastic!
210 mabye or max. 200hp. OR/and lower CL dmg to normal L dmg (67/FD).
Btw. there are some limits:
-you need 15 FD (7weeks with 1 town)
-its 12 mana (not 5 with single Lightning)
-@ TheUnknown: in mid/late game when you have 15FD there is M.Resist, Mirrors, Wards, Immunitions and the chance that your troops will also taste the lightning:)

With 40mana and 12/spell + nasty mana drain from chaos/order/death you have to reasonably choose CL.

To sum up:
If I were to choose having 170hp FD with CL or 220 without CL, I'd take second option Nature doesn't need fragile spellcasters like order, nature needs beasts

Btw. What about Nature lev 5 "Rebirth" spell. Acts like by phoenix (1/5 HP of fallen stack, if stacks die it will be automatically rebirthed).
Hmm, on the other hand it doesn't suits Nature but uses Nature creature's ability...
Waiting for opinions