H3: Fav Lvl2 critter.

[wimfrits]

If stack "X" poses a danger to an army including Marksmen, chances are it will pose a greater danger to that same army minus the Marksmen. In that case, you should bite the bullet and accept the losses, if said stack is protecting something needed. That's the name of the game.

Not really.
First, marksmen are the most efficient low level Castle units.
Castle's speed of progress in the first phase of the game depends on his ability to preserve marksmen.
A castle player losing marksmen is a castle player losing the game.
Second, if the player will lose a significant amount marksmen; it will happen at the start of the battle. That means the presence of marksmen will not have a lot of influence on the outcome of the fight. So if the player can win a fight while losing a lot of marksmen, he will most likely be able to win the fight without using marksmen as well. There are always exceptions ofcourse, but these are rare.

You think that the Castle player should priviledge Marksmen survival over immediate progression? That's just a second lvl troop, do they really have to dictate your war path?

If sacrificing marksmen means he will expand faster, then sure, he should sacrifice marksmen. Those situations will be very rare though.

Such situation will be more than compensated by the fact that marksmen are more exploitable than lizards (like you said); so marksmen provide a bigger boost to the speed of expansion of the castle player.

[Nucleon]

First, marksmen are the most efficient low level Castle units.
Castle's speed of progress in the first phase of the game depends on his ability to preserve marksmen.

Or to developp Royal Griffins, a much more reliable troop, more numerous, flying, extra retaliations and all.

A castle player losing marksmen is a castle player losing the game.

A lot, at the start of the game, certainly. Later, it's just normal; They're so frail after all.

Second, if the player will lose a significant amount marksmen; it will happen at the start of the battle. That means the presence of marksmen will not have a lot of influence on the outcome of the fight. So if the player can win a fight while losing a lot of marksmen, he will most likely be able to win the fight without using marksmen as well. There are always exceptions ofcourse, but these are rare.

Yet, they help by their attack, or by absorbing an ennemy's attack (better to let it land on the Marksmen than on the Griffins). They can do their 2nd lvl job quite well in the early stages. You can have a mighty stack of Marksmen, but if you don't use them, they're insignificant just the same.

Later however, your strategy works better, as many Castle troops can take on the Marksmen' purpose.

If sacrificing marksmen means he will expand faster, then sure, he should sacrifice marksmen. Those situations will be very rare though.

Are they so rare? Everything's so tight in game starts, you've got to outperform yourself; This is not the time to restrain your Marksmen's usage, says Nucleon. You need that wood. Now.

Such situation will be more than compensated by the fact that marksmen are more exploitable than lizards (like you said); so marksmen provide a bigger boost to the speed of expansion of the castle player.

Nucleon concedes that in game starts, Marksmen are among the most useful 2nd level units of the game -if you use them, that is. And that is going to kill many of them.

As other, higher-lvl units developp, they quickly enter the realm of obsolescence, like the second-lvl Master Gremlins they are.

[wimfrits]

Or to developp Royal Griffins, a much more reliable troop, more numerous, flying, extra retaliations and all.

This is self-contradicting. If you have sufficient royal griffins to win battles with them without losses, you won’t need marksmen. Why sacrifice marksmen then? Sacrifice halberdiers instead. If you don’t have sufficient royal griffins, don’t lose marksmen, since they are your best way of expanding for the moment.

Either way, the message is: losing marksmen is pointless.

I disagree that royal griffins are of better use than marksmen though. Marksmen are better exploitable. With Castle I usually go from halberdiers + marksmen to champions or angels.

A lot, at the start of the game, certainly. Later, it's just normal; They're so frail after all.

Again, I don’t see the merit of pointlessly sacrificing marksmen.

Yet, they help by their attack, or by absorbing an ennemy’s attack

Disagreed. The thing with marksmen is that they have relatively weak defense. So marksmen are exceptionally bad in absorbing damage.

You can have a mighty stack of Marksmen, but if you don't use them, they're insignificant just the same.

Oh I agree. But I’m pretty sure the situation this originated from was where both marksmen as lizards were used in the end-battle. Your point was that lizards would have the numeric advantage. My (and Banedon’s) point is that they don’t.

Are they so rare? Everything's so tight in game starts, you've got to outperform yourself; This is not the time to restrain your Marksmen's usage, says Nucleon. You need that wood. Now.

Not if getting that wood cripples your combat abilities, so that you won’t be able to get that ore and those gems or those gloves etc etc.
The situations where it is actually more efficient to sacrifice a significant amount of marksmen are very rare.

Nucleon concedes that in game starts, Marksmen are among the most useful 2nd level units of the game -if you use them, that is. And that is going to kill many of them.

Not if used properly. I never lose many marksmen.

As other, higher-lvl units developp, they quickly enter the realm of obsolescence, like the second-lvl Master Gremlins they are.

Sure. That was not the point of this argument though.

[Nucleon]

This is self-contradicting. If you have sufficient royal griffins to win battles with them without losses, you won’t need marksmen. Why sacrifice marksmen then? Sacrifice halberdiers instead. If you don’t have sufficient royal griffins, don’t lose marksmen, since they are your best way of expanding for the moment.

(...) I don’t see the merit of pointlessly sacrificing marksmen.

You don't sacrifice Marksmen; Sacrificing a troops means sending it forward, to ward something important or to absorb a retaliation. You just lose them the natural way, with ranged attacks and the such. One one hand you tell Nucleon how immensely useful they are, yet your advice is to unpack them as soon as there is danger to them, wich is 30% of the time in game starts and increasing exponentially.

Either way, the message is: losing marksmen is pointless.

But easy, and inevitable.

I disagree that royal griffins are of better use than marksmen though. Marksmen are better exploitable. With Castle I usually go from halberdiers + marksmen to champions or angels.

Royal Griffins kick arses. They are one of the best 3rd lvl troops. They are fast, flying, plentiful, powerful and rugged. A single stack of them can decimate the inner courtyard of a town by themselves. Nucleon uses them a lot.

Some players he encountered, however, also do your straight-to-cavaliers developpment of the Castle. Nucleon didn't tried that yet, as He fears the lack of fliers and fragility of Marksmen. He also is worried by the huge expenses of wood required to get there in game starts. Still, He figures that this is an interesting option.

Disagreed. The thing with marksmen is that they have relatively weak defense. So marksmen are exceptionally bad in absorbing damage.

So thinks Nucleon. However, in the game's early stages, they must put the shoulder to the wheel like everybody else.

Oh I agree. But I’m pretty sure the situation this originated from was where both marksmen as lizards were used in the end-battle. Your point was that lizards would have the numeric advantage. My (and Banedon’s) point is that they don’t.

Oh, they sure will, because, at equal opposition a) Lizard Warriors are more resistant b) Both AI and multiplayers quickly targets Marksmen, a lot more than Lizard Warriors because they seem to think they're intimidating (whereas versus Forteress, the Dragonflies tends to get the other side's attention, fast) and 3) Gnoll Marauders can do as fine a job as the Hallebardiers to protect their own.

Not if getting that wood cripples your combat abilities, so that you won’t be able to get that ore and those gems or those gloves etc etc.
The situations where it is actually more efficient to sacrifice a significant amount of marksmen are very rare.

Situation: First week; an important wood mine is guarded by Storm Elementals. In seven stacks, the bastitches (yes, you are unlucky in the random monster assignation). You need that mine to build your stables, then your Training Grounds. Do you bring on the Marksmen, or do you wait until you can do without them?

Nucleon would sure bring'em. And lose a bunch of them as well. It's allright, that's what they're there for.

Not if used properly. I never lose many marksmen.

[wimfrits]

You don't sacrifice Marksmen; Sacrificing a troops means sending it forward, to ward something important or to absorb a retaliation. You just lose them the natural way, with ranged attacks and the such. One one hand you tell Nucleon how immensely useful they are, yet your advice is to unpack them as soon as there is danger to them, wich is 30% of the time in game starts and increasing exponentially.

My advice is to carefully estimate casualties in any fight, weighing the pros and cons of engaging a battle. If losses are significant, determine what the losses would be if you only use some units, etc.
If done properly, you’ll find that (due to their high attack / high frailty) it is usually most efficient to only use marksmen when you won’t lose them.

Dangerous situations are not 30% of total fights. More like 5-10%

What you term ‘dieing the natural way’ I term ‘sacrifice’ because it is a pointless way of dieing to me.

But easy, and inevitable.

Again, I never lose marksmen. So that statement doesn’t hold.

Royal Griffins kick arses. They are one of the best 3rd lvl troops. They are fast, flying, plentiful, powerful and rugged. A single stack of them can decimate the inner courtyard of a town by themselves. Nucleon uses them a lot.

Another discussion, but investing in a creature is always tricky.
A small stack of griffins is useless (unless used for sacrifice), so you’ll need a larger stack (=more gold) for them to be useful. The investment only pays off when it enables you to reach the higher level units faster.
I find that by the time I would have a significant stack of griffins, my stack of marksmen would still be stronger. By the time my stack of griffins would exceed the marksmen strength, I could also have had my first couple of champions. Just a difference in playing style I guess.

So thinks Nucleon. However, in the game's early stages, they must put the shoulder to the wheel like everybody else.

Your style, not mine.

Oh, they sure will, because, at equal opposition a) Lizard Warriors are more resistant b) Both AI and multiplayers quickly targets Marksmen, a lot more than Lizard Warriors because they seem to think they're intimidating (whereas versus Forteress, the Dragonflies tends to get the other side's attention, fast) and 3) Gnoll Marauders can do as fine a job as the Hallebardiers to protect their own.

AI doesn’t scare me that much.

Situation: First week; an important wood mine is guarded by Storm Elementals. In seven stacks, the bastitches (yes, you are unlucky in the random monster assignation). You need that mine to build your stables, then your Training Grounds. Do you bring on the Marksmen, or do you wait until you can do without them?

Ouch. Bad situation. Lizards wouldn’t like that either. Depends on the rest of the map and how many marksmen I would lose in the process and how this will effect my future expansion. Depends on spells and other units.

Best bet would probably be to have a couple of single griffins and send them forward to take the hits
Or use halberdiers only.
Ofcourse there are always exceptions where losing marksmen is the best thing to do. Again, very rare though.

Going home now, so I won't respond until tomorrow.

[Nucleon]

Dangerous situations are not 30% of total fights. More like 5-10%

It seems to Nucleon that the creature that are guarding the most important mines turn out to be shooters most of the time. Is He alone to experience this? He'll stick with 30%, althought He's got the feeling that it often seems more than that.

[difool]

Royal Griffins aren't nearly cost-effective as Marksmen (someone did the
math once somewhere). Sure you need them to "bust" shooter guardians,
but other than the retaliation special they aren't that hot, and tend to
suffer from high attrition if you aren't careful.

[Banedon]

There's always an opening, unless your whole army stays prone for all of the fight. One attack, ranged or melee, or even a damaging spell will find its way.

Let me make it clearer. There won't be an opening for a speed 7 unit. If, in a final battle, the Marksmen get hit by Greater Basiliks without ever getting a chance for a shot at full damage at them, they must have been used improperly. Damaging spells are unavoidable (too bad) and the same applies to Ranged creatures, but no melee unit with a speed of 7 would find it's way to the Marksmen without taking serious damage.

None of these dies, ever? You tell Nucleon that you can fight a horde of, say, Thunderbirds and only Pikemen dies, if at all, before the Archangels' ressurect?

A fight against Hordes of Thunderbirds will be impossible for anyone, including Fortress, in the early game. Until perhaps the third week, I do not think anyone would risk such a fight. But give me a sufficiently powerful army and yes, I can say that only the Pikemen die. Or even no losses. Consider:

Start of battle. I use Tactics to rearrange my units, moving the Marksmen and Zealots into the corner, the Crusaders, Royal Griffins and Champions surrounding them and carpeting the loose areas with Pikemen. This places the vital stacks out of range of the Thunderbird's first attack.

All my stacks Wait. Thunderbirds will likely wait too - or attack Pikemen. Either way, I cast Slow (or Mass Slow), then pound them down with the two Ranged attacks I get. Without Ranged stacks powerful enough to take down the Thunderbirds in two - or at most three - hits, I won't chance a battle.

By splitting your main one, of course.

If you split your main one, you voluntarily neglect 250 Marksmen - a strong part of your army. If it's the final battle, it does not matter if the Marksmen die - if I win the battle with only one Pikeman, I have still won the game. Spliting the main stack is inadvisable.

And if all your Marskmen' defenders dies to protect them, well, they died to protect a troops whose value is lesser than their own! Plus, the fight is thusly being brought up to your side of the Battlefield. Tell Nucleon again; why would this prove detrimental to the Marksmen's ennemy?

Because your army dies. I've lost most of my army to destroy all of yours. Is this not advisable? Losing all my Crusaders and Royal Griffins to destroy your Chaos Hydra stack is something I'd do in a heartbeat. Remember: if you move your Chaos Hydras to attack my Marksmen, you're also placing them within range of full damage from them. I know that the Chaos Hydras will deal great damage with their multiple attack, but this is something I'll have to risk - and I believe the Marksmen shots will compensate.

Obsolete as in "not tough enough". About every lvl2 in H3 have a bigger survivability factor than the Marksmen. Exemples include H-Hags, Lizard Warriors, of course, Battle Dwarves and obsidian Gargoyles, often present en masse and significant in later battles.

On the other hand, I do not think any other level 2 can have as big an impact on the final battle as Marksmen - aside from Storm Elementals, that is.

If stack "X" poses a danger to an army including Marksmen, chances are it will pose a greater danger to that same army minus the Marksmen. In that case, you should bite the bullet and accept the losses, if said stack is protecting something needed. That's the name of the game.

It depends on what stack "X" is guarding. I won't lose 20-30 Marksmen to claim a loose stack of gold, but I would if they were guarding something like the Sword of Hellfire.

Or to developp Royal Griffins, a much more reliable troop, more numerous, flying, extra retaliations and all.

Royal Griffins kick arses. They are one of the best 3rd lvl troops. They are fast, flying, plentiful, powerful and rugged. A single stack of them can decimate the inner courtyard of a town by themselves. Nucleon uses them a lot.

Royal Griffins are good units. But they are hardly as good as Marksmen when it comes to early game expanding. Remember: if you're exploiting the Royal Griffin's infinite retaliations, you are also letting the Royal Griffins take big damage. Where Marksmen can win Castle battles without losing anything, Royal Griffins will suffer from attrition.

Yes, Royal Griffins are fast, flying, plentiful, powerful and rugged. But they are not Ranged. They cannot provide the clearing power Marksmen can, and they are wont to take some casualties in battles, unlike sturdier units like Thunderbirds. One thing Royal Griffins cannot do is let Castle match the expansion strategies of Stronghold and Inferno, using only the fast flying level 5s and 6s.

So thinks Nucleon. However, in the game's early stages, they must put the shoulder to the wheel like everybody else.

It is remarkably dumb to let Marksmen absorb retaliation. If that's what you're doing, no wonder you find Marksmen weak.

Situation: First week; an important wood mine is guarded by Storm Elementals. In seven stacks, the bastitches (yes, you are unlucky in the random monster assignation). You need that mine to build your stables, then your Training Grounds. Do you bring on the Marksmen, or do you wait until you can do without them?

I agree with wimfrits here. Yes, this is a very bad situation, and one that will cripple Lizard Warriors too. Myself, I would refrain from battle for some time (there tends to be sufficient loose wood around anyway) until the battle becomes much easier.

One one hand you tell Nucleon how immensely useful they are, yet your advice is to unpack them as soon as there is danger to them, wich is 30% of the time in game starts and increasing exponentially.

I agree that 30% of fights is too high - I don't join so many dangerous fights. One important thing here: no side can afford to take part in many fights which are winnable but result in large losses. Let's say you have a stack of 50 Lizard Warriors. Would you fight a battle and lose 20? Maybe, if the reward is worth it. But then you must also consider that you'll have a stack of only 30 Lizard Warriors for the coming week, and if your opponent shows up during this period you'll be backtracking.

Vitally here: Castle should not lose too much Marksmen during the expansion phase. I would kick myself if I lose more than 10 (or 5).

[Nucleon]

Let me make it clearer. There won't be an opening for a speed 7 unit. If, in a final battle, the Marksmen get hit by Greater Basiliks without ever getting a chance for a shot at full damage at them, they must have been used improperly. Damaging spells are unavoidable (too bad) and the same applies to Ranged creatures, but no melee unit with a speed of 7 would find it's way to the Marksmen without taking serious damage

Basiliks are among the lesser of the Marksmen's concerns. Even a ranged attack, by any creature and at long range, can cripple them badly. I can tell the AI sure like to targets them with ranged attack up until their defenders are almost adjacent to them. Arrow towers also take a heavy toll of them. And if against another player, it's even more so.

If you think of a map as a) collecting a few mines and b) taken on your main ennemy whan all is built, then yes, chances are you will have many Marksmen left. But if you take and lose towns, and confront a variety of adversaries and adventure a bit in between a) and b), chances are your surviving Marksmen would be reserve at one point or another.

Royal Griffins are good units. But they are hardly as good as Marksmen when it comes to early game expanding. Remember: if you're exploiting the Royal Griffin's infinite retaliations, you are also letting the Royal Griffins take big damage. Where Marksmen can win Castle battles without losing anything, Royal Griffins will suffer from attrition.

Yes, Royal Griffins are fast, flying, plentiful, powerful and rugged. But they are not Ranged. They cannot provide the clearing power Marksmen can, and they are wont to take some casualties in battles, unlike sturdier units like Thunderbirds. One thing Royal Griffins cannot do is let Castle match the expansion strategies of Stronghold and Inferno, using only the fast flying level 5s and 6s.

The Griffin's numbers and habilities makes them a direct assault troop, and the more it is attacked in melee, the better it is. It is one of the few units that pays to be placed in one single stack; every offensive-enhancing spell cast on them, like bless or bloodlust, sees its utility doubled, tripled as the stack is attacked. Who cares if they can't shoot? As soon as you have Tactics, they're much more efficient than shooters. These boots are made for walking. Your Achangels should resurrect these instead of lowly Marksmen. What a waste.

It is remarkably dumb to let Marksmen absorb retaliation. If that's what you're doing, no wonder you find Marksmen weak.

What a silly strawman: Nucleon's Marksmen do not absorb retaliation, they receive damage. However, If a given stack of ennemies, say, Dragonflies, has mangled my stack of Marksman down to a handful of units (not so a hard thing to do), you can be sure they will be the ones taking the retaliation so a more valuable troop (anything but pikemen) won't have to take it if the said dragonflies are numerous enough to survive their first serious attack.

I agree with wimfrits here. Yes, this is a very bad situation, and one that will cripple Lizard Warriors too. Myself, I would refrain from battle for some time (there tends to be sufficient loose wood around anyway) until the battle becomes much easier.

Nucleon would wait until day 6-7 at the max, replenish spell points, gather every creature available and they go at it with all He's got. He will probably lose between 4-10 Marksmen, plus a few footsoldiers here and there. Makes few difference; As the new week begin, you can buy a new bunch anyway.

[wimfrits]

It seems to Nucleon that the creature that are guarding the most important mines turn out to be shooters most of the time. Is He alone to experience this? He'll stick with 30%, althought He's got the feeling that it often seems more than that.

Battling ranged units does not automatically mean losing your own ranged units. The H3 AI is easily persuaded to target other units than your ranged units. The only real troublesome stacks are ranged stacks with a speed higher than that of my army.

The Griffin's numbers and habilities makes them a direct assault troop, and the more it is attacked in melee, the better it is. It is one of the few units that pays to be placed in one single stack; every offensive-enhancing spell cast on them, like bless or bloodlust, sees its utility doubled, tripled as the stack is attacked. Who cares if they can't shoot? As soon as you have Tactics, they're much more efficient than shooters. These boots are made for walking. Your Achangels should resurrect these instead of lowly Marksmen. What a waste.

When you have archangels, why waste resources on griffins?
So let’s consider a situation without archangels. No resurrection. Like you said, the griffins’ ‘strength’ is partially determined by their multiple retaliation. That means they suffer from multiple attacks. That means you are losing units. So, we have:
A. griffins, requiring a significant investment, that lose units.
B. marksmen, with low cost, that don’t need to lose units.
Hmmmm.. which one to pick?

However, If a given stack of ennemies, say, Dragonflies, has mangled my stack of Marksman down to a handful of units (not so a hard thing to do)

So... you’re ‘sacrificing’ your entire stack of shooters in 1 battle?
Again, this is a pretty pointless sacrifice, since:
A. marksmen are not suited do receive damage. They are among the least suited units to receive damage of the game. Using them to receive damage is unwise. You’re actually saying this yourself already “(not so a hard thing to do)” Use your halberdiers to absorb damage instead.
B. if circumstances allow it, you can bring your marksmen without losing any. Tactics is Castle’s best friend imo. I will usually pick Tyren, so dragonflies don’t really scare me.

you can be sure they will be the ones taking the retaliation so a more valuable troop (anything but pikemen) won't have to take it if the said dragonflies are numerous enough to survive their first serious attack.

I prefer the situation where a less valuable troop takes the damage.

[Banedon]

Basiliks are among the lesser of the Marksmen's concerns. Even a ranged attack, by any creature and at long range, can cripple them badly. I can tell the AI sure like to targets them with ranged attack up until their defenders are almost adjacent to them. Arrow towers also take a heavy toll of them. And if against another player, it's even more so.

Castle towers will undoubtedly hurt Marksmen. This is one point where you cannot avoid it. That's why I'm always cautious when attacking a castle (perhaps unduely so). But like wimfrits said, the Heroes 3 AI can be persuaded to attack less important creatures, and you can be sure I'll do my utmost to save my Marksmen.

If you think of a map as a) collecting a few mines and b) taken on your main ennemy whan all is built, then yes, chances are you will have many Marksmen left. But if you take and lose towns, and confront a variety of adversaries and adventure a bit in between a) and b), chances are your surviving Marksmen would be reserve at one point or another.

But then again, chances are very good that the neutral towns don't have castles built in them while you won't encounted player-held castles till later in the game. By then, Archangels would be on hand to Resurrect the Marksmen.

The Griffin's numbers and habilities makes them a direct assault troop, and the more it is attacked in melee, the better it is. It is one of the few units that pays to be placed in one single stack; every offensive-enhancing spell cast on them, like bless or bloodlust, sees its utility doubled, tripled as the stack is attacked. Who cares if they can't shoot? As soon as you have Tactics, they're much more efficient than shooters. These boots are made for walking. Your Achangels should resurrect these instead of lowly Marksmen. What a waste. wink

The point is: they die. Royal Griffins are good and all, but by exploiting their infinite retaliations they will also take big damage. Therefore they die. If you have Archangels, then losing Royal Griffins would be a tremendous waste; it would be only too simple to send the Archangels forward to tank against the AI and then resurrect whatever Marksmen their ranged units kill. If you do not have Archangels then the Royal Griffins would stay dead, and then the same thing that applies to dead Marksmen apply to dead Royal Griffins.

There should not come a battle before the final one where I lose significant amounts of both Marksmen and Royal Griffins. Especially if I have Archangels.

What a silly strawman: Nucleon's Marksmen do not absorb retaliation, they receive damage. However, If a given stack of ennemies, say, Dragonflies, has mangled my stack of Marksman down to a handful of units (not so a hard thing to do), you can be sure they will be the ones taking the retaliation so a more valuable troop (anything but pikemen) won't have to take it if the said dragonflies are numerous enough to survive their first serious attack.

Of course. If it's a choice of 1 Marksman absorbing retaliation or my stack of 30 Crusaders, you can be sure I'll use my Marksmen. But again you do not appear to be using Marksmen correctly. Protect the Marksmen, and do not let the Dragon Flies hit them - something easily done against the AI.

wimfrits -

My Castle tactics generally involve Marksmen >> Crusaders >> Zealots, Champions and Archangels. I tend to omit the Griffins, seeing that Crusaders can do the close-range combat and the Griffin dwelling isn't required anyway. Rushing for Champions is rather difficult; you need a ton of Wood for that - kinda like Wyverns.

[wimfrits]

My Castle tactics generally involve Marksmen >> Crusaders >> Zealots, Champions and Archangels. I tend to omit the Griffins, seeing that Crusaders can do the close-range combat and the Griffin dwelling isn't required anyway. Rushing for Champions is rather difficult; you need a ton of Wood for that - kinda like Wyverns.

Depends on a lot of things. I like to play at expert or impossible setting, where getting high level units in the first week is usually not possible. Only if it is possible and worthwhile to get cavaliers in the first week, wood could be a pretty big problem.
Most often however, the aim will be at the end of the second week. Wood is less of a problem then, but usually I’ll postpone the training grounds another week in favor of a portal of glory.

On wyverns, well, the few times I played Fortress, it was a mad wood-hunt; sacrificing everything in the process, to get wyverns between days 2 and 4. Those few times, it worked, but I’m no expert on Fortress

I practically always omit griffins as well

And won't use the rest of castle's troops until getting angels or champions.

[HodgePodge]

Can I get a word in here edgewise? I like Marksmen.

[JurK]

hard choice.. marksmen no.1 imo, but storm elementals very gosu too.. only.. are they insubstantial, like in homm4?

[Nucleon]

Battling ranged units does not automatically mean losing your own ranged units. The H3 AI is easily persuaded to target other units than your ranged units. The only real troublesome stacks are ranged stacks with a speed higher than that of my army.

Meaning all of the shooters except Halflings, Lizard Warriors, Orc Chieftains and Master gremlins. Both Magogs and Medusa Queens have an equal speed, but the former's area attack will take both your Marksmen and their defenders. Any other shooter Nucleon can think of act before the Marksmen.

Plus, all of them, except for Halflings and Master Gremlins (who still have more Defense than Marksmen...) are much more rugged and able to take the first shot at long range, Then kill some Marksmen anyway.

So let’s consider a situation without archangels. No resurrection. Like you said, the griffins’ ‘strength’ is partially determined by their multiple retaliation. That means they suffer from multiple attacks. That means you are losing units. So, we have:
A. griffins, requiring a significant investment, that lose units.
B. marksmen, with low cost, that don’t need to lose units.

Yes, a unit that can do 2x 2-3 dam, divided by two for range and that cannot survive attacks by itself is infinitely superior than those who bear their 3-6 damage multiple times in a single round, causing the ennemy to concentrate their fire thus assuring the other units' survivability, of course.

The Royal Griffin's multiple retaliation is not a hindrance; it is an advantage. You know, comes a time hen you must stop hiding behing your shooters and start attacking in melee, too. If your Marksmen are surviving only because all of your other troops dies for them, Nucleon question your tactics.

So... you’re ‘sacrificing’ your entire stack of shooters in 1 battle?
Again, this is a pretty pointless sacrifice, since:
A. marksmen are not suited do receive damage. They are among the least suited units to receive damage of the game. Using them to receive damage is unwise. You’re actually saying this yourself already “(not so a hard thing to do)” Use your halberdiers to absorb damage instead.
B. if circumstances allow it, you can bring your marksmen without losing any. Tactics is Castle’s best friend imo. I will usually pick Tyren, so dragonflies don’t really scare me.

Okay; so for you, it is impossible to play Castle without having Tactics in the first week, is it? Bye-bye Clerics!

[Nucleon]

Castle towers will undoubtedly hurt Marksmen. This is one point where you cannot avoid it. That's why I'm always cautious when attacking a castle (perhaps unduely so). But like wimfrits said, the Heroes 3 AI can be persuaded to attack less important creatures, and you can be sure I'll do my utmost to save my Marksmen.

First off, thanks for admitting that Marksmen will be targeted dy arrow towers; Nucleon was beginning to think that this happened only to Him!

Then, was is that "trick" that you guys use to make ennemy arrow towers change target? In Nucleon's case, they stop targeting His shooters only when half His army are inside the inner court!

Nucleon plays only on the two last levels of difficulty: maybe you're playing at a lesser one.

But then again, chances are very good that the neutral towns don't have castles built in them while you won't encounted player-held castles till later in the game. By then, Archangels would be on hand to Resurrect the Marksmen.

Nucleon assuredly build his castle in the second week. Well before Archangels a)come into play and b) reach the venturing army.

The point is: they die. Royal Griffins are good and all, but by exploiting their infinite retaliations they will also take big damage. Therefore they die. If you have Archangels, then losing Royal Griffins would be a tremendous waste; it would be only too simple to send the Archangels forward to tank against the AI and then resurrect whatever Marksmen their ranged units kill. If you do not have Archangels then the Royal Griffins would stay dead, and then the same thing that applies to dead Marksmen apply to dead Royal Griffins.

See the laconic comment Nucleon made to wimfrits. And yes, send your Archangels over the ennemy's defense first occasion you've got; this way, they'll get mangled and will be too busy to lose a turn healing something, unless they decide to die to ressurect these precious Marksmen.

Nucleon prefer to split them into two (or more) stacks, wait a turn, then one comes helping the Griffins while the other resurect something. Even Marksmen.

There should not come a battle before the final one where I lose significant amounts of both Marksmen and Royal Griffins. Especially if I have Archangels.

You "talk" like if you last battle would be your second one.

Of course. If it's a choice of 1 Marksman absorbing retaliation or my stack of 30 Crusaders, you can be sure I'll use my Marksmen. But again you do not appear to be using Marksmen correctly. Protect the Marksmen, and do not let the Dragon Flies hit them - something easily done against the AI.

You implies Tactics, and even then, you won't escape the Magogs' fireball or the Liches' Death Cloud. That's good to rely on Tactics, but if it is essential to your strategy, you might have a flawed one.

And another thing; Pikemen and Halberdiers die, too. He does not know about you, but Nucleon rarely buys them (as He rarely buy any 1st lvl units) past the second week, unless he plays on very generous maps, laden with so much treasure chests you can't make a move without stepping in them.

[Nucleon]

You know what? Nucleon is not really surprised to see Marksmen have so much votes. They used to be Nucleon's favorite troop too, before He got a better understanding of the game. They seem to kick so much arse in those days...

... Okay, granted, Nucleon rarely won a game then, but it was fun anyway.

He thinks the hype about Marksmen comes from the fact that a vast majority of Castle players like to take Knights, and they hastely take both "Archery" and "Tactics", which would make them good with any other ranged troop anyway.

Also, Archery was a killer in the first days of HOMM3, doing a bonus of 10-25-30% then, whereas these days it is more like half this damage since the first patches. That gave everybody the impression that ranged attacks were the end of it all.

One thing is certain, thought. Nucleon's arguments are doing a poor job of convincing anyone otherwise! As he wrote this, the Markmen in the poll soars, even thought Lizard Warriors, a much more balanced troop that would win over an equal number of Marksmen still doesn't get a single vote yet!

[wimfrits]

Meaning all of the shooters except Halflings, Lizard Warriors, Orc Chieftains and Master gremlins. Both Magogs and Medusa Queens have an equal speed, but the former's area attack will take both your Marksmen and their defenders. Any other shooter Nucleon can think of act before the Marksmen.

You will find that most of these ‘any other shooters’ are stacks you wouldn’t take on with your first-2-weeks-army.
Or would you send in your griffins?

That argument does not hold.

It’s silly to have to explain this, but if you’re fighting magogs, you will not surround your marksmen.

Yes, a unit that can do 2x 2-3 dam, divided by two for range and that cannot survive attacks by itself is infinitely superior than those who bear their 3-6 damage multiple times in a single round, causing the ennemy to concentrate their fire thus assuring the other units' survivability, of course.

Again, the marksmen are not suited to absorb damage. There’s no personal preference involved there, they are simply not suited to absorb damage. If you are using them to absorb damage, then you are not playing efficiently. That’s your choice, and that’s fine. But don’t pretend that using marksmen to absorb damage is a better strategy.

You can test this easily enough, because the marksmen are frail and will only be able to absorb damage once or twice before the stack is crippled and you will never again get a decent stack of marksmen that can absorb damage for you.

So the argument that marksmen are good for absorbing damage is self-contradicting.

The Royal Griffin's multiple retaliation is not a hindrance; it is an advantage. You know, comes a time hen you must stop hiding behing your shooters and start attacking in melee, too. If your Marksmen are surviving only because all of your other troops dies for them, Nucleon question your tactics.

I will lose less pikemen than you will lose griffins.
Question my tactics all you want.

There indeed comes a time when I will stop hiding behind my shooters and start attacking in melee. That will be on day 15, with 2 or 3 angels.

So... you’re ‘sacrificing’ your entire stack of shooters in 1 battle?
Again, this is a pretty pointless sacrifice, since:
A. marksmen are not suited do receive damage. They are among the least suited units to receive damage of the game. Using them to receive damage is unwise. You’re actually saying this yourself already “(not so a hard thing to do)” Use your halberdiers to absorb damage instead.
B. if circumstances allow it, you can bring your marksmen without losing any. Tactics is Castle’s best friend imo. I will usually pick Tyren, so dragonflies don’t really scare me.

Okay; so for you, it is impossible to play Castle without having Tactics in the first week, is it? Bye-bye Clerics!

No, I didn’t say that. You put forth an example with dragonflies. My response was to that example. Dragonflies can cross the field in 1 turn, so if you want to attack dragonflies with marksmen, (and assuming you do not units of an equal or hihger speed than dragonflies) you will need tactics to do so.
If you don’t have tactics, don’t use the marksmen in this particular fight.

That aside, tactics is a very good skill to have. With any side. Castle is blessed with a decent hero that starts with tactics.

[Nucleon]

You will find that most of these ‘any other shooters’ are stacks you wouldn’t take on with your first-2-weeks-army.
Or would you send in your griffins?

Nucleon says; Yes, you could encounter these troops early in the game, maybe guarding an artefact of an important passageway. And he also says: Yes, Royal griffins can do. If Nucleon encounters Liches and He is having Pikemen, Marksmen and Royal Griffins in his army, He would make the Griffins wait a turn, take damage on his Marksmen (usually targeted), then make the Griffins cross the battlefield to nullify the Liches' ranged advantage.

He wouldn't wait to have Angels. Which anyway, if you want to deploy them as fast as you says you will, will requires agressive playing to gat all the ressources neede for such a feat. Unless, of course, you are playing in one of these "Christmas at the kindergarden" kind of maps.

Again, the marksmen are not suited to absorb damage. There’s no personal preference involved there, they are simply not suited to absorb damage. If you are using them to absorb damage, then you are not playing efficiently. That’s your choice, and that’s fine. But don’t pretend that using marksmen to absorb damage is a better strategy

You can test this easily enough, because the marksmen are frail and will only be able to absorb damage once or twice before the stack is crippled and you will never again get a decent stack of marksmen that can absorb damage for you.

So the argument that marksmen are good for absorbing damage is self-contradicting..

If they can't take damage, then why are they always targeted, for crying out loud? As if Nucleon wounded them Himself on purpose!

No, I didn’t say that. You put forth an example with dragonflies. My response was to that example. Dragonflies can cross the field in 1 turn, so if you want to attack dragonflies with marksmen, (and assuming you do not units of an equal or hihger speed than dragonflies) you will need tactics to do so.
If you don’t have tactics, don’t use the marksmen in this particular fight.

That aside, tactics is a very good skill to have. With any side. Castle is blessed with a decent hero that starts with tactics.

So tactics is vital if you deploy Marksmen? That's what you say.

[wimfrits]

If Nucleon encounters Liches and He is having Pikemen, Marksmen and Royal Griffins in his army, He would make the Griffins wait a turn, take damage on his Marksmen (usually targeted), then make the Griffins cross the battlefield to nullify the Liches' ranged advantage.

He wouldn't wait to have Angels.

So... between day 1 and day 14 you have amassed enough griffins to attack a stack of liches on expert or impossible difficulty without suffering significant losses?

I don’t really buy that.

If they can't take damage, then why are they always targeted, for crying out loud? As if Nucleon wounded them Himself on purpose!

Because you don’t use them properly.

So tactics is vital if you deploy Marksmen? That's what you say.

Yes, tactics is vital if you want to deploy marksmen in a battle against dragonflies when you don’t have other units that match the speed of the dragonflies
(and no resurrection and not willing to take the gamble of a lucky setup)