HoMM II: Best level 6 creature

[Gaidal Cain]

100% agreed - and it is the reason in Heroes 3 why I always maintained Archangels were not as godly as people made them out to be - a simple Blind spell can put them out of combat for the whole battle if your spell power is high enough and the opponent can't cure/dispel! It's in a Knight/Cleric's best interest to collect artifacts that prevents this condition (Badge of Courage, Pendant of Second Sight)

Or just get Water Magic. It's not like it isn't the second best school, especially for knights who don't espcet to find a second town.

[Muszka]

I made some tests a couple of years ago, 50 creatures in a stack. There were there groups :
1) Black Dragons with Titans
becouse of the same speed I cheked in both directions. The result was on the favor of the dragons with around 5 creaturs remaining both times.

2)Bone Dragon with Phoenix.
I don't remember exactly, but it was near equal.

3) Crusader with Cyclops
also checked two ways, because of walkers, and if I remember correct the balance was on the side of Cyclops and because of Paralyze.

But in game it many things influence the outcome. Though a Black Dragon cannot be Resurrected, blessed, or such, it cannot be damaged, berserked, slowed, and sometimes a single lightning bolt can turn the battle, no to talk about the armageddon, and those cannot be dispelled, and/or cure, like a slow or a bless.
How about the building cost. The Cloud Castle and the Dragon Tower differ on two things only: sulf/gem and 3/2 builds, but the giant is less usless than a green dragon and to upgrade it the cost is 6000g/per giant (expensiver than the Titan) plus resource.
How about the 'lesser' 6th level units, the HP has a great effect, that cannot be balanced, only with a much stronger hero in attack/defence.

The only 6th level creature IMO which is a real threat to Black Dragon besides the Titan, is the Genie, and only because can halve.

[Darmani]

Those tests are certainly not good depictions. For example, it doesn't reflect that the Titan even has ranged ability, that the Crusader does double damage to Undead, that the Phoenix gives you first cast, etc.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Sure, the Cyclops does pretty good against Crusaders and Phoenixes because of paralyze - but he's completely worthless against dragons, bone dragons and titans.

[ThunderTitan]

Titans... because they won me my first H2 game ever... and y'all seem to forget that the Black Dragon is lvl6.5, as he needs an extra building.

[PhoenixReborn]

IMHO level 6 is really three tiers in cost, stats, and when they come into play: Crusaders and Cyclopes are tier 6; Bone Dragons and Phoenixes are tier 6.4; Black Dragons and Titans are tier 7.

Look at what Darmani wrote here Thunder Titan. Jesus people need to learn to read more carefully.

[HodgePodge]

So many wonderful creatures to choose from, but I finally settled on the Titan because of its ranged ability. Of course, against a stack of Phoenixes (or maybe even Blackies too) they probably wouldn't get a chance to use their ranged ability first.

[Metathron]

and y'all seem to forget that the Black Dragon is lvl6.5, as he needs an extra building.

That should be of no relevance, because the titans' dwelling costs just as much when upgraded.

[ThunderTitan]

Jesus people need to learn to read more carefully.

From my experience reading too carefully = missing out on post count raising.

That should be of no relevance, because the titans' dwelling costs just as much when upgraded.

Damn, it has been that long since i played H2...

[Jolly Joker]

So many wonderful creatures to choose from, but I finally settled on the Titan because of its ranged ability. Of course, against a stack of Phoenixes (or maybe even Blackies too) they probably wouldn't get a chance to use their ranged ability first.

Actually I think that the ranged ability is a liability for the Titan in Heroes 2: when you actually have Titans in your army shooting (for half damage) isn't that much of a boon. In fact I find myself yearning for an opposing creature to actually block me, so I can move AND hit in one turn AND absorb a retaliation with them.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Actually I think that the ranged ability is a liability for the Titan in Heroes 2: when you actually have Titans in your army shooting (for half damage) isn't that much of a boon. In fact I find myself yearning for an opposing creature to actually block me, so I can move AND hit in one turn AND absorb a retaliation with them.

[Jolly Joker]

Oh dear.
But even with full damage the point stands. It's a waste to have a 300 hp monster in your army and not being able to voluntarily go into melee, soak up retaliation and use it to guard your more fragile shooter stacks. Shooting is nice, but it doesn't use up a retal.

[Metathron]

It's no waste at all, first of all because shooting is uber powerful in HoMM II, second of all, because the titans will often get to shoot only once/twice before opposing walkers/flyers traverse the battlefield and engage THEM (not the archmagi or halflings) in melee. But yeah, when this happens, the player with titans hardly has anything to worry about.

[Kristo]

Oh dear.
But even with full damage the point stands. It's a waste to have a 300 hp monster in your army and not being able to voluntarily go into melee, soak up retaliation and use it to guard your more fragile shooter stacks. Shooting is nice, but it doesn't use up a retal.

With the one-two punch of Titans and Archmagi, I dare the enemy to try and reach the Titans to engage in melee (they'll usually be the AI's first target). Go play the final Price of Loyalty scenario again for a reminder of just how much fun Archery can be. You don't need to absorb retaliation when the enemy never reaches your ranks.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

It's no waste at all, first of all because shooting is uber powerful in HoMM II, second of all, because the titans will often get to shoot only once/twice before opposing walkers/flyers traverse the battlefield and engage THEM (not the archmagi or halflings) in melee. But yeah, when this happens, the player with titans hardly has anything to worry about.

What he said.

[Metathron]

Well, we've exhausted the HoMM II critters; I hope everyone enjoyed these polls. They sure sparked some interesting discussion and I think that after all these years this is a fitting tribute to an outstanding and beloved game.

So, what shall we do next? How about the same for HoMM III? I think we've only had polls of the "Favourite...?" type for it thus far.

[Meandor]

How about the same for HoMM III?

If you`ll make those nice "charts" again then why not

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I'll leave it to Metathron if he wants to do a similar "best level 1, 2" unit for Heroes 3 because if I did it, everybody would complain that I did not include expansion-pack units. (After all, I play Heroes 3 SoD without AB installed, so the conflux isn't even in my H3 game). And since we're talking about it, sorry, but Storm Elementals do NOT belong on a "best level 2" unit poll, and neither do Magma Elementals belong on a level 5 poll. They are all level 3-4 units really.

No, what I had in mind for a poll idea is something entirely different. I was planning on starting it after the recent poll craze stopped

[Metathron]

And since we're talking about it, sorry, but Storm Elementals do NOT belong on a "best level 2" unit poll, and neither do Magma Elementals belong on a level 5 poll. They are all level 3-4 units really.

Okay, but shouldn't the storm elementals' significantly lower growth also be a factor? Sure they are stronger, but you get 12 of them, whereas you get from 16 to 22 for the other factions. Most of us often tend to forget about growth, or discard it as less important, which it definitely isn't if you want to cast a fair vote.

[Jolly Joker]

Growth factor? Ah, yes. Right. That would make Storm Elementals still best level 2 - but Phoenix best level 7 and Sprites best level 1 - undisputedly I presume.
Price might be a factor as well. But then still Sprites, Storm Elementals and Phoenixes lead the list - but now Magic Elementals are leading the list as well.
So whatever you include or not - the flux will be there - even if you put in WORST unit, of course.