Another Stage of the Demarked Map of Axeloth

[ThunderTitan]

Yes it did happen after they united. And yes it was a battle over the crown, but the point remains that there was a distinct cultural difference, which one side "bonnie Prince Charlie", exploited to strengthen his position. The Highlanders clearly expected better conditions for Catholic Gaelic people in the Scotland under Jacobite rule.

Another point was that he was I think the descendant of the Stuart Kings, who had united England and Scotland, and were themselves the Scottish royal line.

It was more of a battle about certain religious matters, as James II was Catholic, and the Anglicans wanted one of their own on the throne, which resulted in putting a woman on the throne and making laws not allowing catholics to rule. The scots (including alot of lowlanders) sided with James coz they were mostly catholics.

England was wealthier and more populated than Scotland, thus it's aristocracy naturally held more status.

But those aren't the only advantages that can exist. Plus i never claimed that the refugees had significantly smaller numbers then the natives.

You are right, by superior resources I kind of meant gunpowder, cannons, horses and steel swords VS obsidian toothed clubs and cotton armor.

It is true that the Spanish succeeded against such overwhelming numbers due to native aid, but it was actually their superior resources that allowed them to prevail against the Aztecs. Basically the Aztec warriors tended to panic when fired at by gunpowder weapons and cannons, while the native minions of the Conquistadors finished them off before they could regroup.

And the first time the Spanish tried to take over, they were actually defeated, it took a second attack into a Smallpox ravaged Aztec empire to actually prevail.

Taking over by non-militery means, doesn't hold water, because power is essentially zero-sum, if the refugee leaders get more powerful, the native leaders get weaker. Thus war is required to deal with those leaders.

Like i said, the spanish got really lucky because of smallpox, the aztecs thinking they're gods and the internal strife caused by them killing Montezuma and alot of nobles.


And if the natives were mostly organized in small more or less independent hamlets there wouldn't be enough of a strong leadership for a real resistance.

However, it does require a sense of identification with the Old World, which, else Gurg would have boasted of bieng the successor of some native ruler.

Why?! Wouldn't he feel that being the heir of the most powerful barbarian leader is a better boast? Plenty of ppl claimed descent from Alexander the great or roman emperors without having anything in common with them culturally.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

There is no date given to the events of Gathering Storm and Winds of War. It could happen after HIV (I believe it is the case as well), but for all we know it could happen before. Don't tell me it's logical for the add-on to happen after the original game because Heroes III : Shadow of Death was taking place before Restoration of Erathia.

And anyway, I doubt anybody could forget something like the Reckoning. Look at how in our world we're still remembering Hiroshima or the Shoah. Ok, we have pictures, but surely the people of Might and Magic can use the latter to create illusions for storytelling purposes.

My point being : you're interpreting. If you can't believe there are natives on Axeoth because they are never mentionned, you can't say the heroes from HIV's add-ons are refugees for the simple reason that it is never stated that they are. In other words : for all we know, they are natives.

You mentionned Dogwoggle, but you'll notice he, as almost all the "new" heroes in Heroes IV (I mean Heroes that weren't in previous games), has no mention of the Reckoning or the Old World in his biography, while all the old heroes do have such mention. It seems to indicate the new heroes do not have any ties with the old world. For instance let's look at some of the new heroes' bios :

It is logical that the Gathering Storm happened after the others, beacause the Gathering Storm happens in a world where the political entities are in a sense solidified, while with the exception of Palaedra and maybe Aranorn, no political entities are stabalised already in the original Heroes IV game.

Also, Dogwoggle must be freed up from fighting for such a such a faction, for the campaign to occur.

The fact heros naturally cannot be in two places at once (the clone bug aside), means it is unlikely that two campaigns can happen at the same time.

All campaigns must have happened fairly close together, beacause the same heros are alive in all of them and have not retired.

I think Winds of War is the last, beacause it is in a sense the "Last Battle" which promises to ultimately decide the fate of the world, and the player has the option to lead any of those factions to victory.

To have it coming last, would be a kind of neat ending for the series, the final opportunity to decide who wins in the end.

Quote:
Khorrun's small, nomadic tribe dwelled in a harsh desert far from civilization. Nonetheless, bandits slaughtered his entire tribe while he was away gathering water. Now, he wanders the world alone. Like his people, Khorrun is quick to anger, slow to forgive, and intensely loyal to those that win his respect.


Quote:
Pythia served a powerful sorcerer for decades to learn the secrets of his power. When there was nothing more to learn, she abandoned the old man to his enemies and set out to create an empire of her own. So far, however, she has only managed to make a name for herself as a deadly robber.


Quote:
Arkenvoss is an ancient zombie death knight from a time when his master dominated the world. However, centuries of memories tend to blend together in his undead mind, so his origin is clouded in the fog of the past. All he knows is he's waiting for the day when his master returns to this world.


Quote:
Araja arrived in Palaedra with a retinue of servants. Many believe she's a princess from a far off land, although Araja refuses to confirm or deny such rumors. She's a haughty woman prone to giving orders, but she has proven herself to be a formidable commander as well.


Isn't that weird that there are no mentions of the Reckoning in those bios ? I also notice that Arkenvoss is waiting for the return of his master to "this" world, meaning that he is really a (undead) native.

Trust me, the biographies are poorly worded, gramatically contradictory and often extremely cliche.

There were once native inhabitants of the world, there must have been beacause there are pyrimids from those times. It is likely therefore that the mummies of the new world, are those of the original, now dead inhabitants of the world.

The finding description of the artifact, the ankh of life, refers to this now dead civilization that I mention.

Does the biography of every hero that was in the old game mention the reckoning, no it doesn't. The elf Jenova was in the last two games I think, and the reckoning isn't mentioned at all in her biography.

The reckoning is only ever mentioned in a characters background, if it is specificly relavent to their present state.

Arkenvoss and Araja are the most interesting. Araja arrived in Palaedra with a retinue of servants and she may be a princess from a far off land. What land, Channon?

Arkenvoss comes from a time when his master dominated the world and he awaits his "return". In his case, he is likely yes an undead native.

This may offer some clue as to exactly what happened to the native inhabitants, they were wiped out by an undead liche or maybe vampire, who exterminated all the sentiant lifeforms of the world in his ceaseless quest for power.

Having wiped out all opposition, he departed to another world via some kind of spell, maybe one fueled by the surviving life-forms, taking him and most of his undead minions with him to the new world. This is expecially likely if he was a vampire, as a vampire needs a blood supply of sentiant biengs. For some reason, Arkenvoss got left behind, along with the mummies who weren't affiliated with his master to start off with.

I wonder whether the Rainbow Crystal, has something to do with it. Around the Rainbow Crystal, is Undead King Dreggar and his undead. I wonder whether Arkenvoss and King Dreggar are related, perhaps both of them were undead 'left behind' beacause the Rainbow Crystal stopped them from following their master. Indeed, the Rainbow crystal works even on golems.

The world then slowly recovered, the life forms that the undead hadn't bothered to wipe out, began to spread and replenish the world. Perhaps the departure of Arkenvoss master, left a magical shadow of equal power, just as Arkenvoss's spell took the undead from the world, the spell added sentiant biengs and it took them from the Old World via the portals.

No. But surely the Sword hasn't travelled from the other world all by itself ?... And do gods travel form world to world themselves ? Do they go through the portals ? Were there gods in Enroth to begin with ? There were the Ancestors, but they were called that and never "Gods" IIRC. It is either a plot-hole or a local myth, and if it was indeed a local myth it needed locals to tell the story to Emilia and Solmyr at some point.

The Sword of the Gods, was in Heroes III. The myth is an old world myth that was carried over from Erathia.

Religion is one of the things we know exists in some form, but which is never ever mentioned in much detail.

The ancesters are pretty god like, if you play the Might Campaign. They are the inhabitants of the afterlife, whom the barbarians at least hope to go to upon their death. They preside over rewards and punishments in other words. This seems to be the only religion of the might faction.

We know that religion exists, beacause they have temples. All except the Might Faction that is. We know they believe in ancesters and an afterlife.

They seem to worship more cosmic principles than personal biengs, in a . Their religion seems to be extremely abstract, extremely philosophical and intricately linked with magic. Their gods are abstract ideals, with no names, except God of Sacrifice, who apparantly took form on the earth and was slain with the blade of the gods.

I wonder if in Heroes III and perhaps earlier, there were 5 gods, water, fire, earth, water and spirit. Their magic was elemental. The God of Sacrifice, is probably a reference to an earlier religious system, one more resembling RL religions that offer up sacrifices to gods.

[Gaidal Cain]

It is logical that the Gathering Storm happened after the others, beacause the Gathering Storm happens in a world where the political entities are in a sense solidified, while with the exception of Palaedra and maybe Aranorn, no political entities are stabalised already in the original Heroes IV game.

If there were natives, the kingdoms could have solified long before the newcomers arrived.

The fact heros naturally cannot be in two places at once (the clone bug aside), means it is unlikely that two campaigns can happen at the same time.

Since Dogwoggle wasn't a featured hero in any standard campaign, I think that's a bogus argument. There are other campaigns that take place at the same time, were you can hire heroes to be at two places ""at once".

The Sword of the Gods, was in Heroes III.

Nope.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

If there were natives, the kingdoms could have solified long before the newcomers arrived.

The natives were all long dead. The Kingdoms did not solidify earlier, beacause the basic background is that they all brand new, set up by the refugees.

There are a fair number of passages, which are incompatable with the idea of the Kingdoms bieng established before the refugees arrived.

Since Dogwoggle wasn't a featured hero in any standard campaign, I think that's a bogus argument. There are other campaigns that take place at the same time, were you can hire heroes to be at two places ""at once".

I faught Dogwoggle before in a Heroes IV campaign. Sure, he wasn't a spotlight hero, but so what? Most aren't. There are whole scenario's, in which the enemy do not have a single spotlight hero.

Nope.

I remember it being in Heroes III. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps I am right, all it proves if I am wrong is that the item was created between the last Heroes III campaign, and the first Heroes IV campaign, or that it came from a different part of the world.

[Marzhin]

The natives were all long dead.

This is what you believe, not a fact.

The Kingdoms did not solidify earlier, beacause the basic background is that they all brand new, set up by the refugees.

There are a fair number of passages, which are incompatable with the idea of the Kingdoms bieng established before the refugees arrived.

There is not a single reference to the refugees or the Reckoning in The Gathering Storm. Not a single one.

I faught Dogwoggle before in a Heroes IV campaign. Sure, he wasn't a spotlight hero, but so what? Most aren't. There are whole scenario's, in which the enemy do not have a single spotlight hero.

That's why there are campaign heroes and "basic" heroes. Campaign heroes are specific to a campaign or scenario, they can't be hired in a tavern and aren't featured in multiplayer maps (Emilia, Gauldoth, etc). Those heroes are part of the story. In HIV standard, Dogwoggle was a "basic hero", meaning he could be hired in any tavern of any map. Those heroes shall not be considered as part of the story for obvious reasons.

I remember it being in Heroes III. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps I am right, all it proves if I am wrong is that the item was created between the last Heroes III campaign, and the first Heroes IV campaign, or that it came from a different part of the world.

There is a list of all HIII artefacts here on Celestial heavens and the Sword of the Gods definitely isn't there. You're probably thinking of the Sword of Judgement or the Angelic Alliance. And the only thing it proves is : nothing indicates the Sword was from the old world (you can invent any history you want to back up your point, you still have no fact). As such, in regard of the information we have, it should be considered an artifact from Axeoth.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

This is what you believe, not a fact.

There is evidence that natives once existed, based upon the fact there are pyrimids filled with mummies.

You believe that the natives continue to exist, I believe they don't beacause it is unfeasable that the refugees would not make a single reference to such natives anywhere in the Heroes IV.

There is not a single reference to the refugees or the Reckoning in The Gathering Storm. Not a single one.

I was talking about the Heroes IV kingdoms. The other kingdoms origins we don't know anything about.

Then neither is there a single reference to natives either. We know from Heroes IV, that there are refugees and we know that living natives don't exist, beacause no evidence for their existance can be found in any campaign.

We know they happened after the Reckoning, beacause many of the basic heros come from Heroes III.

We know from the Heroes IV campaign, which happens fairly soon after the reckoning, that there are no living natives, beacause there is no evidence anywhere for their existance.

There are people in the other campaigns, and they happened after the Reckoning, we know there isn't any native inhabitants beacause no evidence for them being there exists, and the odds of all the characters never mentioning them at all in any place, are very slim.

Thus they must be refugees also, beacause they are not "natives".

That's why there are campaign heroes and "basic" heroes. Campaign heroes are specific to a campaign or scenario, they can't be hired in a tavern and aren't featured in multiplayer maps (Emilia, Gauldoth, etc). Those heroes are part of the story. In HIV standard, Dogwoggle was a "basic hero", meaning he could be hired in any tavern of any map. Those heroes shall not be considered as part of the story for obvious reasons.

Well, if they fight against the 'main heros' or aid them they are clearly part of the story aren't they?

Why should they not be considered part of the story? That's a bit like saying that extras are not part of a film.

There is a list of all HIII artefacts here on Celestial heavens and the Sword of the Gods definitely isn't there. You're probably thinking of the Sword of Judgement or the Angelic Alliance. And the only thing it proves is : nothing indicates the Sword was from the old world (you can invent any history you want to back up your point, you still have no fact). As such, in regard of the information we have, it should be considered an artifact from Axeoth.

The Sword of Judgement IS the Sword of the Gods. Open up your map editor and look at the image of the Sword of the Gods, and compare it to the image of the Sword of Judgement on your site.

Look carefully at the way the golden handle guard curls over, look at the round golden pommel, the wood handle and the way the blade twists, and compare it to the sword of the gods.

Take into account the differences in resolution between the two games, and it is pretty clear that the Sword of the Gods, is the same item as the Sword of Judgement, just with a different name.

Many items clearly from the old world, have been renamed. The Golden Plate Mail, is clearly the Armor of Wonder of the old game. They look identical.

[ThunderTitan]

Quote:
Khorrun's small, nomadic tribe dwelled in a harsh desert far from civilization. Nonetheless, bandits slaughtered his entire tribe while he was away gathering water. Now, he wanders the world alone. Like his people, Khorrun is quick to anger, slow to forgive, and intensely loyal to those that win his respect.


Quote:
Pythia served a powerful sorcerer for decades to learn the secrets of his power. When there was nothing more to learn, she abandoned the old man to his enemies and set out to create an empire of her own. So far, however, she has only managed to make a name for herself as a deadly robber.


Quote:
Arkenvoss is an ancient zombie death knight from a time when his master dominated the world. However, centuries of memories tend to blend together in his undead mind, so his origin is clouded in the fog of the past. All he knows is he's waiting for the day when his master returns to this world.


Quote:
Araja arrived in Palaedra with a retinue of servants. Many believe she's a princess from a far off land, although Araja refuses to confirm or deny such rumors. She's a haughty woman prone to giving orders, but she has proven herself to be a formidable commander as well.


Isn't that weird that there are no mentions of the Reckoning in those bios ? I also notice that Arkenvoss is waiting for the return of his master to "this" world, meaning that he is really a (undead) native.

Trust me, the biographies are poorly worded, gramatically contradictory and often extremely cliche.

There were once native inhabitants of the world, there must have been beacause there are pyrimids from those times. It is likely therefore that the mummies of the new world, are those of the original, now dead inhabitants of the world.

The finding description of the artifact, the ankh of life, refers to this now dead civilization that I mention.

Does the biography of every hero that was in the old game mention the reckoning, no it doesn't. The elf Jenova was in the last two games I think, and the reckoning isn't mentioned at all in her biography.

The reckoning is only ever mentioned in a characters background, if it is specificly relavent to their present state.

Arkenvoss and Araja are the most interesting. Araja arrived in Palaedra with a retinue of servants and she may be a princess from a far off land. What land, Channon?

Arkenvoss comes from a time when his master dominated the world and he awaits his "return". In his case, he is likely yes an undead native.

This may offer some clue as to exactly what happened to the native inhabitants, they were wiped out by an undead liche or maybe vampire, who exterminated all the sentiant lifeforms of the world in his ceaseless quest for power.

Having wiped out all opposition, he departed to another world via some kind of spell, maybe one fueled by the surviving life-forms, taking him and most of his undead minions with him to the new world. This is expecially likely if he was a vampire, as a vampire needs a blood supply of sentiant biengs. For some reason, Arkenvoss got left behind, along with the mummies who weren't affiliated with his master to start off with.

I wonder whether the Rainbow Crystal, has something to do with it. Around the Rainbow Crystal, is Undead King Dreggar and his undead. I wonder whether Arkenvoss and King Dreggar are related, perhaps both of them were undead 'left behind' beacause the Rainbow Crystal stopped them from following their master. Indeed, the Rainbow crystal works even on golems.

The world then slowly recovered, the life forms that the undead hadn't bothered to wipe out, began to spread and replenish the world. Perhaps the departure of Arkenvoss master, left a magical shadow of equal power, just as Arkenvoss's spell took the undead from the world, the spell added sentiant biengs and it took them from the Old World via the portals.

I present to you Occam's Razor. Try not to cut yourself on it.

There are a fair number of passages, which are incompatable with the idea of the Kingdoms bieng established before the refugees arrived.

Again let me point out Charlemagne... his kingdom was pretty new, doesn't mean no one lived in those places prior.

[Marzhin]

Then neither is there a single reference to natives either. We know from Heroes IV, that there are refugees and we know that living natives don't exist, beacause no evidence for their existance can be found in any campaign.

If no refugees arrived in Lodwar or Channon there is no reason for the people to refer to themselves as "natives".

There are people in the other campaigns, and they happened after the Reckoning, we know there isn't any native inhabitants beacause no evidence for them being there exists, and the odds of all the characters never mentioning them at all in any place, are very slim.

Thus they must be refugees also, beacause they are not "natives".

The lack of mention about natives isn't evidence. At best it's a clue.

Well, if they fight against the 'main heros' or aid them they are clearly part of the story aren't they?

Why should they not be considered part of the story? That's a bit like saying that extras are not part of a film.

No. Because the basic heroes can be recruited... or not. It's random. No two players will recruit the same heroes or face the same foes except the campaign heroes. The basic heroes are not supposed to be part of the story, they are only a gameplay mechanic.

To use the same tactic as the one you are using : if Dogwoggle had a role in the story, why Emilia or whoever was the narrator never mention him ?

The Sword of Judgement IS the Sword of the Gods. Open up your map editor and look at the image of the Sword of the Gods, and compare it to the image of the Sword of Judgement on your site.

Of course there are graphical similarities. Most of HIV artifacts look like their HIII equivalent, that doesn't mean they are the same. If they are the same and came from the old world, then explain me this : the blade is supposed to be part of an old myth and is known under the name "Sword of the Gods" by Emilia and pals. How is this possible if the sword had a different name back in Erathia ? Don't tell me its owners through time didn't knew it was the legendary sword ans changed its name, because if so there is no way Emilia could have located it as she was looking for the "sword of the gods" and not the "sword of judgement".

My point is : all Heroes games (and MM) share a more-or-less-similar graphic design for their artifacts, the only reason is to make the player feel "at home". Look at Heroes V : many artifacts are terribly familiar yet the whole universe is different.

So no, they are not the same artifact. Maybe the graphic designer based the SotG on the SoJ, but that's all. If they were the same blade, they would have the same name and the same background. And by the way the SotG also has a purple flame halo-thingie around its blade and the SoJ hasn't


Anyway...

We will never agree with each other. You see the lack of mention of natives as a proof they're all dead, a point of view I can't agree with as natives are in MMIX and as far as I know TGS and WOW too, and it makes sense for me they have simply merged with the refugees. So I think we could go on like this forever, without ever come to anything except that clearly there was a lack of communication between the teams of MMIX and HIV.

(By the way even if the HIV team thought they were no natives, TGS and WOW were released after the release of MMIX, so I doubt they would continue to ignore the natives as if MMIX never existed, because MM is the mother-series).

So I'll stop there as far as I'm concerned.

I'll just say one last thing : Waerjak's barbarians can't have migrated to Chedian because there were already people there. And this is not a deduction or a belief or an interpretation : this is a fact.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

If no refugees arrived in Lodwar or Channon there is no reason for the people to refer to themselves as "natives".

That is perfectly true, however there hardely a physical barrier to keep the natives out of the area in which the original Heroes IV campaign happens.

The basic problem is that Lodwar and Channon, aren't that far away and there is clearly no complete barrier against travel between them.

The lack of mention about natives isn't evidence. At best it's a clue.

What's the difference between evidence and a 'clue'.

The lack of any mention of natives, kind of proves that such natives don't exist. All sorts of things might have existed, but were never mentioned in the game, thus we summise they don't exist.

No space marines are ever mentioned in Heroes IV, thus we surmise that space marines do not exist in the Heroes IV world.

The lack of any evidence to suggest the existance of natives, and a large deal of evidence to suggest the existance of refugees leads to one very obvious logical conclusion, there are no natives.

No. Because the basic heroes can be recruited... or not. It's random. No two players will recruit the same heroes or face the same foes except the campaign heroes. The basic heroes are not supposed to be part of the story, they are only a gameplay mechanic.

To use the same tactic as the one you are using : if Dogwoggle had a role in the story, why Emilia or whoever was the narrator never mention him ?

This argument doesn't work beacause there are random heros in the game, if every single hero is recruited from a faction, then you start getting random heros.

The "basic" heros were supposed to be in the game, else they wouldn't recruitable in the campaigns would they? You'd just get random heros.

Of course there are graphical similarities. Most of HIV artifacts look like their HIII equivalent, that doesn't mean they are the same. If they are the same and came from the old world, then explain me this : the blade is supposed to be part of an old myth and is known under the name "Sword of the Gods" by Emilia and pals. How is this possible if the sword had a different name back in Erathia ? Don't tell me its owners through time didn't knew it was the legendary sword ans changed its name, because if so there is no way Emilia could have located it as she was looking for the "sword of the gods" and not the "sword of judgement".

My point is : all Heroes games (and MM) share a more-or-less-similar graphic design for their artifacts, the only reason is to make the player feel "at home". Look at Heroes V : many artifacts are terribly familiar yet the whole universe is different.

So no, they are not the same artifact. Maybe the graphic designer based the SotG on the SoJ, but that's all. If they were the same blade, they would have the same name and the same background. And by the way the SotG also has a purple flame halo-thingie around its blade and the SoJ hasn't

The same object isn't always called the same thing and some things can be known under more than one name, the two names can used synonomously together.

Over time, one name increases in frequency and the other reduces, this can happen many times. It goes from bieng Sword of Judgment, also known as the Sword of the Gods, to Sword of the Gods, also known as the Sword of Judgement.

The artifacts in Heroes IV are animated, the purple halo thing is just the teams way of making the item look cool and powerful. They are so alike they are even rated as "Relics" in both games.

We will never agree with each other. You see the lack of mention of natives as a proof they're all dead, a point of view I can't agree with as natives are in MMIX and as far as I know TGS and WOW too, and it makes sense for me they have simply merged with the refugees. So I think we could go on like this forever, without ever come to anything except that clearly there was a lack of communication between the teams of MMIX and HIV.

(By the way even if the HIV team thought they were no natives, TGS and WOW were released after the release of MMIX, so I doubt they would continue to ignore the natives as if MMIX never existed, because MM is the mother-series).

So I'll stop there as far as I'm concerned.

I'll just say one last thing : Waerjak's barbarians can't have migrated to Chedian because there were already people there. And this is not a deduction or a belief or an interpretation : this is a fact.

Is Chedian where the barbarians of Mongo come from, or is it somewhere else? You mentioned Chedian was "Orc Country" at some point. I should probably lay off drawing the lines until I have played the campaign fully.

Given the "basic" heroes available in both campaigns are similar, one would determine that WoW and Gathering Storm happen in the same native-less world as was original.

The question is really whether the later campaigns are sequals to the main campaign, or whether they are sequals to M&M IX, I am working on that the former basis, while you are clearly working on the latter basis.

It cannot be denied that the two games had diverged on this issue originally, I feel distintly uncomfortable with magically adding "natives" just beacause a closely related game had natives.

To put it this way, the two teams wever clearly the same basic concepts to work with, and the same characters, but they diverged on the details, such as natives.

What make M&M native account, carry more weight that the Heroes IV native-less account? They are two seperate games and although yes Heroes derives originally from Might and Magic and they an aweful amount in common, it is not the case that Might and Magic is so inherantly superior that the entire lineage of Heroes IV must be discarded and the Might and Magic storyline "grafted on" in order to add such things as natives, which are not present in the original game.

If you have two groups of people, freely working on the "same" story, even with the same basic concepts, they are eventually going to end up diverging massively on the details of that story, eventually in such a way that they can no longer be the same story.

That is the problem, I had until recently no understanding of Might and Magic, but lots of understanding about Heroes of Might and Magic. You clearly see Heroes of Might and Magic, as deriative of Might and Magic, and thus the former must be harmonised at all costs with the latter.

[Marzhin]

A quick summary of what is known about Chedian and its surroundings (the region known as Hanndl's Grasp where MMIX is taking place). I put in blue my own interpretations :

- roughly one millenium ago, the Ancients came to Axeoth and brought humans and other species to the world (as they did for the various other worlds of the MM universe). As the intro movie for MMIX states : "the world has changed a lot since they left".

- the Ursanian Empire becomes the most powerful nation in the world. Ruins of the Ancients are rumoured to be in the Sea of Verhoffin, it may indicates the Ursanian Empire was a direct heir to the Ancients.

- the Ursanian Empire expand its borders and assimilate the elven country of Etendar and the orc country of Cheh'Dian (who would later be known simply as the province of Chedian) Just like our roman empire, the Ursanian Empire was surrounded by "barbarians", so I would assume the Great Wall of Channon was built by the Empire.

- five centuries before the Reckoning, emperor Trandis goes to war with a powerful sorcerer called Verhoffin. Verhoffin cast the most powerful spell ever : "the Eye of the Storm". The Sea of Verhoffin is created and one third of the Empire lands are sunken. It is implied in MMIX that the whole Cataclysm had been engineered by the God of Chaos, Njam the meddler. What happened to Verhoffin afterwards isn't clear but he may have died from his own spell.

- Lots of survivors arrive in Chedian and its population becomes a mix of orcs and half-orcs, elves, humans and dwarves. Various clans are formed and would fight each other during the following centuries, mainly for control of the elemental thjorad (Axeoth equivalent of Mithril).

- The Ursanian capital city of Ursania (how original...) was spared by the Cataclysm. After 13 years, the emperor is assassinated and soon after that the barbarians invade what is left of the Empire. The country around Ursania would become Mendossus.

- The remaining third of the Empire probably becomes Channon.

- One year after the Reckoning, barbarians hordes from Beldonia decide to invade Chedian. In Chedian you can meet Nicolaï Ironfist, the grandson of Lord Ironfist, who isn't really sure how he arrived there and still believe he is in Enroth. There aren't any other refugee from the other world in Chedian.

- The clans of Chedian unite their forces to fight the Beldonians. In the end it is revealed that the leader of the Beldonians, Tamur Leng, was in fact tricked by Njam the God of Chaos. In the end Tamur and the player characters join forces to fight Njam who is finally trapped forever (?) in the Tomb of a Thousand Terrors.

- Chedian becomes a united country at last.

[Avonu]

- roughly one millenium ago, the Ancients came to Axeoth and brought humans and other species to the world (as they did for the various other worlds of the MM universe). As the intro movie for MMIX states : "the world has changed a lot since they left".

There is also more info in game.

- the Ursanian Empire becomes the most powerful nation in the world. Ruins of the Ancients are rumoured to be in the Sea of Verhoffin, it may indicates the Ursanian Empire was a direct heir to the Ancients.

No - Ancients never visited Ursanian Empire (that indicate from scrap of paper in library outside Thronheim). But they visited Axeoth before Ursanian Empire but after war with Kreegans started (same scrap of paper).

- Chedian becomes a united country at last.

No (IIRC) - but it will be (ask Fre about that).


@Slayer
That there is no mention about something, don't indicated that thing doesn't exist. In HoMM series never was mention (IIRC) Ancients-Kreegans war but it exist in that universe (but it isn't important for HoMM Player). That same with natives - are there important for homm player? Did they presence or abscence change anything in campaigns?

And another point - if something is mention in game that indicaded is it 100% true? If yes, then what about texts from taverns in H2 - "The truth is out there" and "The dark side is stronger"? Is it indicaded that on Enroth are Mulder and Jedi Knights/Sith Lords?

And one more thing - it is map of all Axeoth - not only HIV's Axeoth. If you working on that kind of map, you must consider all info - not only HIV info or only MMIX info.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

That there is no mention about something, don't indicated that thing doesn't exist. In HoMM series never was mention (IIRC) Ancients-Kreegans war but it exist in that universe (but it isn't important for HoMM Player). That same with natives - are there important for homm player? Did they presence or abscence change anything in campaigns?

And another point - if something is mention in game that indicaded is it 100% true? If yes, then what about texts from taverns in H2 - "The truth is out there" and "The dark side is stronger"? Is it indicaded that on Enroth are Mulder and Jedi Knights/Sith Lords?

And one more thing - it is map of all Axeoth - not only HIV's Axeoth. If you working on that kind of map, you must consider all info - not only HIV info or only MMIX info.

I've noticed something.

Marzhin made a small mistake on his map. What he calls the Isle of Pyre is actually the Isle of the Dawn. The Isle of Pyre, is likely one of the small islands around Aldamar.

Did the prescence of or abscence of natives change anything in the campaigns. The answer to that unfortunately is yes. It did.

For instance Elwin in the Nature Campaign, mentions small nature communities scattered far away from Aranorn, not as natives but as refugees also. It is a given that any small community is a refugee community also.

It is almost like the whole world holds to a common origin and the 'refugees' show not the slightest concern for the natives at all. It's like well, natives do not exist.

As for the Heroes IV Axeloth point, well most of the areas on the map, with the exception of maybe Mendossus, is in Heroes IV.

No - Ancients never visited Ursanian Empire (that indicate from scrap of paper in library outside Thronheim). But they visited Axeoth before Ursanian Empire but after war with Kreegans started (same scrap of paper).

The Kreegans don't exist in Heroes IV, even if they existed is in Heroes III. They fled to another world, but left some of their demonic minions behind never-the-less. All part of the reasoning behind the rather strange demon/undead fusion.

The Kreegans are a Heroes III concept and they are a faction which is no more in Heroes IV. Their remnants have long since fused with the undead.

- One year after the Reckoning, barbarians hordes from Beldonia decide to invade Chedian. In Chedian you can meet Nicolaï Ironfist, the grandson of Lord Ironfist, who isn't really sure how he arrived there and still believe he is in Enroth. There aren't any other refugee from the other world in Chedian.

This is interesting beacause it gives me an idea. This Nicolai Ironfist is pretty odd, all the royal lineages, except the Immortal King, are extinct in the Heroes IV game.

I am wondering, you know the portals. Maybe they didn't deposit everyone at the same time, maybe they deposited some people in the far future.

The "natives" are in fact the vast bulk of the refugees from Antagarich and Enroth maybe, while a few other refugees got deposited centuries later, in world populated by their earlier arriving brethren.

[ThunderTitan]

This argument doesn't work beacause there are random heros in the game, if every single hero is recruited from a faction, then you start getting random heros.

Any non-campaign heroes that you can hire at the inn aren't considered anywhere in relation to the campaign, if they want they could say that he was anywhere else at the time.

Take Sandro for example, as i recall on some H3 map you could free him from a prison, and SoD shows you how he got there. But you could hire him no problem in previous campaign maps in between.

The Kreegans don't exist in Heroes IV, even if they existed is in Heroes III. They fled to another world, but left some of their demonic minions behind never-the-less. All part of the reasoning behind the rather strange demon/undead fusion.

The Kreegans are a Heroes III concept and they are a faction which is no more in Heroes IV. Their remnants have long since fused with the undead.

You seem to confuse exist with being alive. And as Lucifer Kreegan was a demon i'd say that some of them were still around (old fork-hand).

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Any non-campaign heroes that you can hire at the inn aren't considered anywhere in relation to the campaign, if they want they could say that he was anywhere else at the time.

Take Sandro for example, as i recall on some H3 map you could free him from a prison, and SoD shows you how he got there. But you could hire him no problem in previous campaign maps in between.

The problem with Heroes IV, is quite often non-campaign heros, like Solymr,
Mastero and so on, are often campaign hero. Dogwoggle too.

I usually get quite annoyed about stuff like you mentioned above.

You seem to confuse exist with being alive. And as Lucifer Kreegan was a demon i'd say that some of them were still around (old fork-hand).

Demons are alive, that's for certain and for the most part they go around with the undead, but the Kreegans as an orginised political faction do not exist in Heroes IV.

"They" fled to another world.

[ThunderTitan]

The problem with Heroes IV, is quite often non-campaign heros, like Solymr,
Mastero and so on, are often campaign hero. Dogwoggle too.

I usually get quite annoyed about stuff like you mentioned above.

I like it, gives them some personality... and most ppl by campaign heroes mean those that are story wise in the campaign, not those that are exclusive. Sandro was one in SoD, together with Crag Hack, Grm & co.

Demons are alive, that's for certain and for the most part they go around with the undead, but the Kreegans as an orginised political faction do not exist in Heroes IV.

"They" fled to another world.

I meant as in currently not extinct.

And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreegan

By the common man, a Kreegan individual would be referred to as “Devil”, and indeed shares many traits with such. The Kreegan have small, peering eyes, bodies covered with scales and horns, and claws on both their hands and feet. The body shape is more or less humanoid, with unusually large hands, and arms long enough for them to touch the ground while standing upright; in MM7 (although not in MM6) Kreegan can move similar to gorillas. They appear in various different colors, and occasionally come with wings. Some also spread disease or have destructive powers of fire.

So Devils are Kreegans.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

I like it, gives them some personality... and most ppl by campaign heroes mean those that are story wise in the campaign, not those that are exclusive. Sandro was one in SoD, together with Crag Hack, Grm & co.

I like it too.

I also tend to choose my random heros by thinking about the character of the main heros, and what kind of heros would likely ally themselves with them, beacause their ideals are similar.

For instance, Bron is in a sense similar to Wearjak, so I hired him in the Might Campaign. I was very annoyed when Vogel used a Brom clone against me in the last map.

I meant as in currently not extinct.

And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreegan

The problem is, in Heroes IV, the Kreegans are hardely aliens and more like the traditional demons that live in hell and seek the damnation of mankind.

The Kreegans are also more of a political faction, the Kreegan demons for instance, rather than a race as such.

The Kreegans (by which is meant the political faction), fled to another world, abandoning some of their minions to follow the normal portals into the New World, ending up merging together with the undead in the proccess.

These aren't "Kreegans" they are just normal demons.

[Kareeah Indaga]

I was going to try and go through the whole thread with rebuttals, but it keeps growing and most of the necessary comments so far have been made, so I’ll just post the research for now. If I missed anything, feel free to add it.

Elwin’s campaign:

No clear mention of time since the Reckoning is made. Dandelion is mentioned as having been under attack by bandits and such “for years now”, and if Worllarc was an Enrothian Necromancer (and there is no evidence to support that he was or was not), then at least two years as that was how long he’d been killing off tiger cubs. Mirilass was also in charge of his region “for over a year”.

Lysander’s campaign:

4 years since the Reckoning.

Waerjak’s campaign:

Waerjak was 23, and he was old enough to be off by himself (hunting, or playing at it) but apparently not so old that he could go without a caretaker in Clash of Dragons, which had to have taken place between the Night of Shooting Stars and the end of the Demon Wars (1162 AS – 1171 AS) due to the presence of the demons that held Valita captive. (Bow before Angelspit, all of you. Don’t ask, just bow.) There were no other definite indicators of time since the Reckoning.

Gauldoth’s campaign:

“years” since the Reckoning.
After Order Campaign, possibly Life as well; both Palaedra and Great Arcan are mentioned so they must exist.

Emilia’s campaign:

Long enough for Emilia to grow up. She looked to be…hmmm…twelve-ish, in the opening cinema, or was otherwise young enough to need Shifina to take care of her, and was old enough to take care of herself but was treated by other cast members as if she were still rather young in the campaign, so maybe late teens, early twenties. Maybe 6-8 years since the Reckoning. Didn’t find anything more definite than that, sadly.

Tawni’s campaign:

Age 7—cleaning up blood in the Rusty Mug.
Age 10—meets Capt. Black Balfour for the first time.
Two years later no longer works at the Rusty Mug.
Tawni was 17 when the Reckoning occurred.
Months later, she gets her first job on a ship.
Two years later, she gets onto the Black Death.
Year prior to campaign starting, Tawni gets the Lightning Crack.
“One of the crew for several years” at the beginning.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

No clear mention of time since the Reckoning is made. Dandelion is mentioned as having been under attack by bandits and such “for years now”, and if Worllarc was an Enrothian Necromancer (and there is no evidence to support that he was or was not), then at least two years as that was how long he’d been killing off tiger cubs. Mirilass was also in charge of his region “for over a year”.

Yes, the Reckoning is mentioned. It concerns Dandilion and other similar communities that were scattered far and wide by the reckoning, away from Aranorn. But no mention of the reckoning in regard to the main characters is ever made as far as I know.

As for dating, I just take it that all the campaigns happen in order, Lysander first and Tawni last.

I reckon Emilia was about 17 probably. There is plenty of time for the Life and Might Campaigns (both last about a year in scenario time alone, not to mention between map time), so that makes about 6-7 years.

Assuming she is 12, then she is probably 16, 17 or 18 at the start of her campaign. Of course, her exact age would be dependant on how long the player takes playing the other campaigns.

[Gaidal Cain]

The problem is, in Heroes IV, the Kreegans are hardely aliens and more like the traditional demons that live in hell and seek the damnation of mankind.

There are no kreegans in H4. The ones in Antagarich were dead long before the reckoning, and the ones on Axeoth were most likely as well (if they ever got there). We can be pretty sure that not all creatures in the H3 Inferno are Kreegans, since in MM8 it's a major plot point that they're al gone, and yet there are gogs and efreeti.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

There are no kreegans in H4. The ones in Antagarich were dead long before the reckoning, and the ones on Axeoth were most likely as well (if they ever got there). We can be pretty sure that not all creatures in the H3 Inferno are Kreegans, since in MM8 it's a major plot point that they're al gone, and yet there are gogs and efreeti.

Sorry I meant Heroes III.

Again, another point that the two games have diverged.