Artifacts

[theLuckyDragon]

This was a topic on the old Round Table, but given the fact that there's a new one, I thought it would be useful to "transfer" it here. The original topic contained in it's first post questions like:

* What do you think the artifact system will be in Heroes 5?
* What do you expect from the new artifact system?

and so on.

A summary of what was discussed over there could be the following:

* According to a post on the official forum the artifacts will be more powerful, but also more scarce
* A few ideas regarding creature specific artifacts (like Magical Garlic against Vampires, Camel's Hair against Cavaliers etc.) have been discussed
* Hopes for more artifact slots (such as earrings, bracelets etc.) have been expressed
* People have expressed their position regarding cursed artifacts: some are for, some are against

So let's continue now, shall we?

[Pitsu]

* According to a post on the official forum the artifacts will be more powerful, but also more scarce

In Homm3 and Homm4 minor artifacts mattered very little, so I like the idea of less but more powerful arties

* A few ideas regarding creature specific artifacts (like Magical Garlic against Vampires, Camel's Hair against Cavaliers etc.) have been discussed

As I understand Academy will have arties for monsters. There can be more and differently functional, but arties with very specific use should never appear as random arties on map.

* Hopes for more artifact slots (such as earrings, bracelets etc.) have been expressed

I would like that many weapons etc can be used simultaneously. Or boots of speed and these dragon bones that gave + to spell power and knowledge but occupied boots slot. Problem is that one artifact is good in adventure map, other in battles, to get max use, you should switch them repeatedly. Micromanagment which could be avoided, and which was avoided in Homm1 and 2.

* People have expressed their position regarding cursed artifacts: some are for, some are against

I think Nival said that there are no cursed arties planned. In case arties can be equipped and unequipped, they make little sense anyway. Or they must have special feature which makes it impossible to remove them from its slot. HALF-CURSED arties, with a positive and negative effect (like + 3 to spell power but -1 to morale) would be interesting and functional...

[theLuckyDragon]

The issue of very specific artifacts being placed on random maps could be solved by unchecking them in the artifacts list.

[AlnOl]

Less artifacts but more powerfull than just a "simple" upgrade. It is ok for the academy to have "small" artifacts to improve stats. Maybe the same could be done for other towns, but instead of calling them arties the term "improvements" could be used (e.g. dragonscales for defense, sharpening for attack, etc.)

Eventhough it is accepted since HOMM I, I never saw how an artifact like a club or mace could improve an army's stats - it does not make sense. However, using the above concept, an artifact to improve army's stats could be located in a town, therefore could be captured by the enemy.

Known artifacts should improve the heroes (like speed, spell points, spell efficiency), and bonuses to the army like protection (kind of a shield for the army staying close to the heroes), moral boost (like standards), adventure gain (like spyglass, compass to increase movements).

I know it is late in the development of the game (could be used for a later version), but anything following this philosophy would increase the game. A strategy to loose many "soldiers" to aquire an artifact may be beneficial, and would bring many variation to the play.
Food for thoughts

[theLuckyDragon]

Hmm... I see your point. But wouldn't that be similar to inserting technological advancement into the game? Techs that could be stolen by the enemy upon town capture.

[ronald]

I still think adding cursed artifacts are a good idea - they'd add more stratagy..

[theLuckyDragon]

@ronald
Completely cursed or half-cursed, as Pitsu suggested?

I like the idea of half-cursed artifacts; it would make artifact management a bit more realistic and challenging: will you equip the (e.g.) Skull Helmet to gain great knowledge, but with the price of your troops' morale lowering at the sight of such a wicked thing on your head?

[Gaidal Cain]

Naah. Cursed artifacts would make it more RPGish, and would probably only be irritating ("oh, damn, the Fizbin of Misfortune again. Back to *whatever place you remove them at* again").

However, artifacts with mixed effects might be good and interesting.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

* According to a post on the official forum the artifacts will be more powerful, but also more scarce
* A few ideas regarding creature specific artifacts (like Magical Garlic against Vampires, Camel's Hair against Cavaliers etc.) have been discussed
* Hopes for more artifact slots (such as earrings, bracelets etc.) have been expressed
* People have expressed their position regarding cursed artifacts: some are for, some are against

So let's continue now, shall we?

By more scare I hope they don't mean that there will only be a few artifacts in the game, only that they don't occur as frequently in the maps that they have designed.

I would like to see at least one artifact that can be "programed" by the mapmaker.

[ronald]

@Lucky Dragon - well cursed ofcourse - is it even possible to have a 'semi' cursed item/thing?


@Gaidel Cain - Why more RPGish? Damien Lucifer got the idea of having your 'extra' heroes picking them up and then sending them into enemy terrory

[Gaidal Cain]

@Gaidel Cain - Why more RPGish? Damien Lucifer got the idea of having your 'extra' heroes picking them up and then sending them into enemy terrory

Well, if you can do it, so can your enemy- though that is an aspect I hadn't considered. If the artifacts are powerful enough, it might be worth it...

[theLuckyDragon]

Of course it's possible. In Heroes 3 there were four artifacts that could be considered half-cursed: The Titan's Gladius, The Sentinel's Shield, The Titan's Cuirass and The Thunder Helmet. These all increased certain primary skills (attack, defense, power and knowledge, respectively) but decreased others (defense, attack, knowledge and power, respectively).

[Campaigner]

Less but more powerful artifacts is what I would like too. The way it was in good 'ol Heroes II

[Paladin]

I kinda liked the 'artifact flood' in HoMM3. The other extreme is King's Bounty, with 8 artifacts in total. I remember from when playing HoMM1, the arties were both weak and scarce. I don't wanna see that again.

Semi-cursed artifacts are a great idea, by the way.

[JonahFalcon]

I hope they go with the "paper doll" artifact system.

[Thelonious]

@ Gaidel - yeah those are the true tactics Damien even came up with the wild idea of a cursed Grail - stacked around the real grail, so if you went digging when you didn't knew the exact location of the grail you'd end up with the antigrail zapping all your recources etc.

Of course it's possible. In Heroes 3 there were four artifacts that could be considered half-cursed: The Titan's Gladius, The Sentinel's Shield, The Titan's Cuirass and The Thunder Helmet. These all increased certain primary skills (attack, defense, power and knowledge, respectively) but decreased others (defense, attack, knowledge and power, respectively).

Well those aren't cursed the have side effects - but it doesn't actually care how you call 'em the are a good idea


Oh and I like the idea of having less, but more powerfull artifacts -> that makes 'em more special.

[DaemianLucifer]

Less artifacts but more powerfull than just a "simple" upgrade. It is ok for the academy to have "small" artifacts to improve stats. Maybe the same could be done for other towns, but instead of calling them arties the term "improvements" could be used (e.g. dragonscales for defense, sharpening for attack, etc.)

Eventhough it is accepted since HOMM I, I never saw how an artifact like a club or mace could improve an army's stats - it does not make sense. However, using the above concept, an artifact to improve army's stats could be located in a town, therefore could be captured by the enemy.

Known artifacts should improve the heroes (like speed, spell points, spell efficiency), and bonuses to the army like protection (kind of a shield for the army staying close to the heroes), moral boost (like standards), adventure gain (like spyglass, compass to increase movements).

I know it is late in the development of the game (could be used for a later version), but anything following this philosophy would increase the game. A strategy to loose many "soldiers" to aquire an artifact may be beneficial, and would bring many variation to the play.
Food for thoughts

We had that in HIV.Most artifacts influenced just hero stats.But some influenced the whole army(and those were the true artifacts).But,as we all know,HIV is such an abomination that it is never to be mentioned,yet alone used again!

And please remember that Im Daemian with an A,not E.That E goes earlier:

D A E M I A N

[DaemianLucifer]

@Gaidel Cain - Why more RPGish? Damien Lucifer got the idea of having your 'extra' heroes picking them up and then sending them into enemy terrory

Well, if you can do it, so can your enemy- though that is an aspect I hadn't considered. If the artifacts are powerful enough, it might be worth it...

Actually,that idea was used in a custom map Plan B(I forgot who made it).You had 4 level one heroes,and you needed to defeat an extremly powerful level 40 hero that had megadragons.

[Thelonious]

And please remember that Im Daemian with an A,not E.That E goes earlier:

D A E M I A N

Sorry Daemian

But that cursed artifact idea out of a map - that must have been for HoMM III then, right?

Anyway it would be cool - having cursed artifact, because if there really are fewer artifacts (which I really doubt - I think we'll see many HoMM III artifacts ) and more powerfull they could actually be annoing

[DaemianLucifer]

No,it was for HIV(scripted artifacts,of course).Well,since frizbin turned into a benefitial artifact in HIV,turning it into a cursed one would be weird.Then again,since it was in the dreaded part of HoMM,no one would mind.