Too many non-retaliation units?

[Extrakun]

As for the devils issue; one of the major flaws of H3 was that everything revolved around speed. The high level units were ridiculously strong compared to the lower levels. It is clearly attempted to fix this in H5 by toning down the lvl7 units. For one by preventing them to cross the battlefield in one turn and by reducing their initiative. Which is a good thing imo. It maintains deeper battlefield tactics instead of reducing them.
Now people want to have such overpowered units back? Why??

But Green/Emerald Dragons, Shadow/Dark Dragons, and Angels can defintely blaze across the battlefield. Either they give the Devils more special, or make it a tougher unit to compensate for its lose of speed, and hence utility.

And oh yeah, Pit Fiends are dangerous in castle sieges. You think you can just hide behind your walls? Say hi to Fireballs. (At least this is what happened to me in Haven's 5th scenario)

[DaemianLucifer]

The devil's summon pit fiend ability does a great deal of damage. The new pit fiends last until they're killed, get to cast the pit fiend spells...

Devil's are better than bone dragons by far.

A special that requires a dead stack(not a unit,but a stack),especially your dead stack,is very bad speciallty.Dragons are way better than devils.EVen the bone ones.

As for them being the weakest, having played the first 3.5 campains on heroic, I can tell you that so far, the inferno campain is far and away the hardest, it's hardly fair to compare based soley on playing the campains.

I have also played several hotseat games, a couple of the scenaios and some of the multiplayer maps against the computer. I do not agree that inferno is the worst, as Wimfrits said, gating is one of the most useful hero specials in the game, allowing you to play a no-loss fight against most neutrals.

Against a player,however,inferno is too slow.Sylvan beats inferno at least 7 out of 10 times,and that is bad.And the fact that inferno campaign is beateble just shows how bad the AI really is.

I would say the only unit which needs changing is the horned demon, as the inferno is the only race to not get a shooter in the first 3 levels they need a good tank imo. I think the horned demon/demon overseer could do with slightly more initiative so that it gates troops in faster, as you usually rely on gated hounds and imps and never use gated demons.

This I agree with.But I also think that devils need more speed.And maybe a flying ability for imps,but its not a necesity.

The other thing is the balance in the game is much better between the levels now; level 7’s don’t really do good damage to level 1’s anymore. They do good damage to level 4’s and above really, and the best way to kill mass level 1’s is probably level 3. While level 3’s do better damage to cost to level 1’s.

I think you’re in danger of really upsetting this balance (which is pretty good already) if you make such a blanket change as giving the level 7’s the ability to go anywhere on the battlefield. I already think that the dragons move too far, and the best level 7 appears to be the Titans, who of course, can strike anywhere in turn 1.

The problem is that the BF is too small.Most level 7s should be able to cross more space then some lower levels.With a BF this small,it means crossing the whole BF in one turn,and only devils should be able to do that(and other teleporting units,if they add them).

[wimfrits]

I'll second what Gaidal Cain said.

I would say the only unit which needs changing is the horned demon, as the inferno is the only race to not get a shooter in the first 3 levels they need a good tank imo. I think the horned demon/demon overseer could do with slightly more initiative so that it gates troops in faster, as you usually rely on gated hounds and imps and never use gated demons.

I agree. Horned demons are too slow to matter at this point. Demons tend to be skipped in combat completely.

[asandir]

unfortunately that is true, and i actually find them to be a good unit (on the rare occasions they can move)

[DaemianLucifer]

unfortunately that is true, and i actually find them to be a good unit (on the rare occasions they can move)

Among the strongest,actually.In the battle against veyer(is this his name?)my overseers were the main unit,and the ones of the few survivors.

[Purple Sky]

Well, the nightmares have a huge speed and inititative. They can run through the whole map. However, they are weak.

Personally i think everything is balanced quite well in Inferno. Sylvan should lower the stats for the druids and hunters. Druids can shoot and cast lighting before upgraded. Either they should be nerfed in stats, the shooting ability removed(at least until upgraded) or the lightining spell removed until becoming elder druids.

[DaemianLucifer]

Well, the nightmares have a huge speed and inititative. They can run through the whole map. However, they are weak.

No,they cant.They can only hit a large unit directly opposing them(unles you have tactics).

Personally i think everything is balanced quite well in Inferno. Sylvan should lower the stats for the druids and hunters. Druids can shoot and cast lighting before upgraded. Either they should be nerfed in stats, the shooting ability removed(at least until upgraded) or the lightining spell removed until becoming elder druids.

Sylvan is not the only one that can crush onferno,but they are overpowered.Druids need just a little change in their stats,and not in their available spells.As for hunters,well they are just way too strong.Double shot for basic creature needs to go for sure.Oh,and lets not forget the pixi.Although wasp swarm is crappy now,theese little buggers are too strong for their level.

[Jimmpi]

NOOOO..Dont lower sylvan stats!! If you should make inferno match the other you need to lower a lot of other stats as well.. In stead just boost some few stats in inferno like the devils and Horned demons. Now I dont mean to make devils overpowered, not at all!! Just boste either spedd or hitpoint/Damage and the speed fore horned demons and suddely inferno would be a much better fraction..

Personally I think they could do with one more shooter but thats beside the point I'm trying to make

[Purple Sky]

NOOOO..Dont lower sylvan stats!! If you should make inferno match the other you need to lower a lot of other stats as well.. In stead just boost some few stats in inferno like the devils and Horned demons. Now I dont mean to make devils overpowered, not at all!! Just boste either spedd or hitpoint/Damage and the speed fore horned demons and suddely inferno would be a much better fraction..

Personally I think they could do with one more shooter but thats beside the point I'm trying to make

One more shooter?! They have spell casting fiends and succubi, both of which affect areas. It would be wiser just to increase the initiative of the fiends.

[Jimmpi]

NOOOO..Dont lower sylvan stats!! If you should make inferno match the other you need to lower a lot of other stats as well.. In stead just boost some few stats in inferno like the devils and Horned demons. Now I dont mean to make devils overpowered, not at all!! Just boste either spedd or hitpoint/Damage and the speed fore horned demons and suddely inferno would be a much better fraction..

Personally I think they could do with one more shooter but thats beside the point I'm trying to make

One more shooter?! They have spell casting fiends and succubi, both of which affect areas. It would be wiser just to increase the initiative of the fiends.

osp..foregot the spell casting

[Mirage]

One more shooter?! They have spell casting fiends and succubi, both of which affect areas. It would be wiser just to increase the initiative of the fiends.

I agree, I think fiends need a higher initiative, I'm lucky to get two turns in with them all battle. Honestly to get a good balance in Inferno I think they should drop the Succubi to only one bounce so they hit only two units, then increase the initiative of pit fiends, horned demons, and possibly look at the devil getting a minor speed increase but not anywhere on the field. This way your fiends/demons actually get more than 2 turns in your average battle. Also adding the speed to the devils isn't that big of a deal because they are relatively weak and it would be silly to send them in alone, the only back up that can be there in less than three turns is the cerberi which is suicide to run across the map with them as they have low def. and would get creamed. By the time gated reinforcements arrived the devils/cerberi would be dead if you just rushed in. What this would do for infero though is allow devils to head over to the enemy line after gated units are in though.

[DaemianLucifer]

Fiends are way powerfull the way they are now.I shiver every time I face them.If they were quicker...

[Gaidal Cain]

Sylvan is not the only one that can crush onferno,but they are overpowered.Druids need just a little change in their stats,and not in their available spells.

Personally, I'd be happy if they made a spellcasting system in which small stacks doesn't do ridiculus large amounts of damage and large stacks doesn't do ridiculus small amounts. That's one clear balance issue.

[Vision]

As for the devils issue; one of the major flaws of H3 was that everything revolved around speed. The high level units were ridiculously strong compared to the lower levels. It is clearly attempted to fix this in H5 by toning down the lvl7 units. For one by preventing them to cross the battlefield in one turn and by reducing their initiative. Which is a good thing imo. It maintains deeper battlefield tactics instead of reducing them.
Now people want to have such overpowered units back? Why??

I have to agree with this, however, I must disagree with the majority of people saying that devils are bad. Let me explain, in a more easily understandable way.

The design of ALL creatures is based around each other creature for that town. Sure, devils alone may not be "the be all end all", but when you combine the entire set of troops you can build at a specific town level, you have a very well rounded force, no matter what town.

Saying that Sylvan beats Inferno 70% of the time is false. I say this because of many factors, the first (and most evident) being that noone, NOONE, has been able to complete full standard MP games with any regularity. I seriously doubt that more than 1% of all MP games have actually been completed, with one player being utterly defeated by another. Also, one town (or player) beating another does NOT mean that town is overpowered. It DOES mean that the player is better.

Now, if you mean duels with sylvan heroes vs inferno heroes, then maybe you should take a more in-depth look. This still requires that you look at the skills of both players and take that into account.

Now, if you are doing hotseat against yourself, its like playing chess against yourself. You eventually pick a side, and whether you realize it or not, you do things to make that side win.

I have watched (in duel) Inferno heroes literally slaughter Sylvan, Academy, Haven, and Necro without even batting an eye. Again, skill of the players must also be taken into account, but I was the one being slaughtered, and I am far from a noob (like the players that owned me are)

Devils too slow? Maybe. Inferno as a whole underpowered? Learn to play.

[Mirage]

Devils too slow? Maybe. Inferno as a whole underpowered? Learn to play.

While I am not saying that Inferno is underpowered it is my opinion that they are the weakest faction. Main reason is that they rely so heavily on one unit. I think Succubi should be nerfed a bit while horned demons/pit fiends and/or devils should be improved to make up for it and form a greater balance in play.

Saying "Learn to play" when people are discussing play balance isn't productive. That's like me saying, so you lost to players of IMO the weakest faction while you were using haven/Sylvan YOU need to learn to play. Not very productive.

[Vision]

If you say so.

Inferno are, by far, one of the stronger factions in the game. Just because people here have the opinion that it is not does not mean that it isnt (and likewise, just because my opinion is that it is, does not make it so).

In saying learn to play, I am saying very simply that people need to give ALOT more than a frickin week or two of game time to say that any faction is stronger or weaker than any other.

[Rapier]

I think comparing Inferno to Sylvan is very unfair. Sylvan has some very obvious strengths that imo, will get nerfed somewhat. Comparing inferno to Necropolis I find that the relative strengths of the two sides are pretty good. Although both sides suffer from relying heavily on some units, (Succubae Mistresses, Archliches), and having some other units that are almost totally worthless for much of the fight. (Horned Demons and Zombies).

Notice I say much of it, as the fight comes to an end having those strong engraged meatsheild stacks you start to see them being useful, this is a general issue that needs to be looked at for all the slow meatsheild troops of any tier imo.

Another thing to consider in duals is the hero specialities, Naadur for instance, the hero who receives “gated” ghost stacks whenever an enemy stack dies, makes Necropolis armies much more power and effective in large fights (Due to enemy wasted retaliations), than some of the heroes with weaker specialities. Like Kasper and his first aid tent.

[Mirage]

If you say so.

Inferno are, by far, one of the stronger factions in the game. Just because people here have the opinion that it is not does not mean that it isnt (and likewise, just because my opinion is that it is, does not make it so).

In saying learn to play, I am saying very simply that people need to give ALOT more than a frickin week or two of game time to say that any faction is stronger or weaker than any other.

You say that we need more than 2 weeks to say that any faction is stronger and weaker than any other, but right above that you said you think Inferno is one of the stronger factions.
So which faction do you feel is the weakest if you think inferno is one of the stronger ones. I'm willing to agree that more time may reveal more about which factions are better in what situations but if we don't discuss why we think some factions are poor we may not learn if we are just missing some aspect of them or not.

[Vision]

I personally think that all factions, when played in certain fashions, have extreme strengths (and weaknesses). In -my- style of play, (and in my opinion), inferno is quite easily one of the strongest factions. In -my- stlyle of play, dungeon is weakest.

However, I can also say things with a little more authority (not alot) because I was (and still am) a beta tester. I have been playing the game for quite a long time, close to 9 months (August I believe was when we started closed beta). Since the beginning, very little balance changes have been made.

In any event, my point is that each faction has its strengths - for Inferno, the strengths are huge advantage against casting heroes, demons when played correctly and in line with the rest of the inferno's creatures are simply amazing, cereberi deal massive damage without retal to up to three enemies, nightmares are frickin awesome (fear kicks ass), succubus == chain shot == teh goodness, and pit lords, OH MY GOD. Add to that the fact that they can all gate (at specific levels) and Devils, well, played well, the creatures alone can defeat even the Sylvan armies that people claim are more than a match. Then there is the hero, with hellfire and the best access to the best spells in the game.

Add all that up, and you have a very hard to play faction that, when mastered, also becomes one of the hardest factions to defeat -- in my opinion (and with my style of play).

This can be said about (and done with) every faction.

As a side note, in Heroes 2, every town type was unique. There were no two factions that were equal in any aspect, not even the number of creatures with upgrades - warlock had 3 level 6 (dragon + 2 upgrades), sorceress had one. Maybe this incarnation is an attempt to go back to 'Play the faction to its strengths' like every other TBS and RTS out there.

[Mirage]

I hear where you are coming from. For me anyways I find Inferno is the most difficult in the early and late game. As long as I can get the resources for succubi then things are good in the mid game but I think the town relies too much on that unit.