Too many non-retaliation units?

Wolfshanze · Unread postby **Wolfshanze** » 30 May 2006, 17:02

I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting the feeling that there are simply TOO MANY non-retaliation type units in HOMMV.

It used to be a rare and unique feature that very few units had (Vampire Lords being one of the originals I think). Now, it seems everyone and their monkey's uncle has non-retaliatory strikes, and this goes all the way down to wussy level-1 units.

I'm just going off memory here, but I'm sure there's plenty more:
Sprites, Blood Furies, Hydras, Rakshasa, Cerberus, Vampires...

I dunno... is it too many? Seems there's more then what I listed... maybe not, but whether it's my own army or my enemies seems nobody ever retaliates anymore (and I am talking about the first hit).

Oh well... maybe I'm rambling for no reason, but it just seems that the "no retaliation" thing is a little too common compared with previous games.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 30 May 2006, 17:08

Pixies had no retaliation in HIII as well(although sprites didnt).Naga had no retal,and so did harpy hag(but not harpy though).Hydras had this feature too,and so did cerberi and devils.You didnt notice because there were more units though.

Nebs · Unread postby **Nebs** » 30 May 2006, 17:09

So far, only two more than in Heroes 3. Pixies and Air Elementals. And as arch/devils lost the ability, number is the same.

Wolfshanze · Unread postby **Wolfshanze** » 30 May 2006, 17:10

Speaking of Nagas, I miss the Naga and Naga Queen... the Raksasha is a POOR substitute for the Nagas... and what's with the sex-change thing anyways?

Oh, and I miss Devils having no specials at all... as well as a completely useless short-range teleport.

Devils are wusses now.

theLuckyDragon · Unread postby **theLuckyDragon** » 30 May 2006, 17:15

Wolfshanze wrote:... and what's with the sex-change thing anyways?

It's a sort of tradition!

I think of it as a funny and harmless one.

Purple Sky · Unread postby **Purple Sky** » 30 May 2006, 17:21

Devils need to be powered up. They should be able to move the whole battlefield but instead their speed is only 7. Compare that to many other 7th tier units and you will notice that their movement is weak. In any way, even if their movement speed is increased it will be quite worthless. They cant attack the shooters because of their size and they wont survive the front line of the enemy because they are too weak.

Blood furies need to be nerfed. Seriously...

Rakshasas are a copy of D&D and that is pure bullcrap. Nagas are better.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 30 May 2006, 17:23

Devils are to slow.But then again,all level 7s are too slow now(im not talking about initiative),which is bad.

And it was the genies that changed sex,but with those hands I imagine it will be quite hard for them now

vicheron · Unread postby **vicheron** » 30 May 2006, 18:21

Heroes 1 had 3 creatures with the no retaliate ability, Hydra, Rogue, and Sprite. There were 28 creatures in the game. 10% of the creatures had no retaliation.

Heroes 5 has 11 creatures with the no retaliate ability, Rakshasa Rukh, Rakshasa Raja, Blood Fury, Hydra, Deep Hydra, Cerberus, Vampire, Vampire Lord, Pixie, Sprite, and Air Elemental. There are 90 creatures in Heroes 5. 12% of the creatures have no retaliation.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 30 May 2006, 18:40

vicheron wrote:Heroes 1 had 3 creatures with the no retaliate ability, Hydra, Rogue, and Sprite. There were 28 creatures in the game. 10% of the creatures had no retaliation.

Heroes 5 has 11 creatures with the no retaliate ability, Rakshasa Rukh, Rakshasa Raja, Blood Fury, Hydra, Deep Hydra, Cerberus, Vampire, Vampire Lord, Pixie, Sprite, and Air Elemental. There are 90 creatures in Heroes 5. 12% of the creatures have no retaliation.

H1 didn't have upgrades.

It's fairer to count 48 creatures for H5. So it woulb be closer to 30%.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 30 May 2006, 18:44

ThunderTitan wrote: H1 didn't have upgrades.

It's fairer to count 48 creatures for H5. So it woulb be closer to 30%.

True,but some creatures get no retal just when they upgrade(cerberi for example).

Continuity · Unread postby **Continuity** » 30 May 2006, 20:52

ThunderTitan wrote:
vicheron wrote:Heroes 1 had 3 creatures with the no retaliate ability, Hydra, Rogue, and Sprite. There were 28 creatures in the game. 10% of the creatures had no retaliation.

Heroes 5 has 11 creatures with the no retaliate ability, Rakshasa Rukh, Rakshasa Raja, Blood Fury, Hydra, Deep Hydra, Cerberus, Vampire, Vampire Lord, Pixie, Sprite, and Air Elemental. There are 90 creatures in Heroes 5. 12% of the creatures have no retaliation.
H1 didn't have upgrades.

It's fairer to count 48 creatures for H5. So it woulb be closer to 30%.

No, because if you don't count upgrades you only have 7 units with no-retaliation. 7 of 48 = 14.5%. You can't count upgrades in total units and not in number of no-retal units.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 30 May 2006, 20:58

Continuity wrote: No, because if you don't count upgrades you only have 7 units with no-retaliation. 7 of 48 = 14.5%. You can't count upgrades in total units and not in number of no-retal units.

Ups... Did the % wrong. I was in a hurry at the time...

Jimmpi · Unread postby **Jimmpi** » 30 May 2006, 21:04

Wolfshanze wrote:
Oh, and I miss Devils having no specials at all... as well as a completely useless short-range teleport.

Devils are wusses now.

haven't played them but reading the health and spedd etc it sounds like devils sucks and are the worst lvl 7 creature..hope they fix so you can teleport the whole battelfield!

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 30 May 2006, 21:09

But we have to many charging units.It seems that every town has one.

Continuity · Unread postby **Continuity** » 30 May 2006, 21:15

Charging as the Cavalier/Paladins? I didn't know we had more than one. I still haven't finished the Inferno campaign. Which other creatures have that ability?

Labyrinth · Unread postby **Labyrinth** » 30 May 2006, 21:16

DaemianLucifer wrote:But then again,all level 7s are too slow now(im not talking about initiative)

Are they?
No.
- Black Dragon
- Emerald Dragon
=> both are very fast units.

- Arch Angels
=> at least fast units, IIRC

- Titan
=> is a shooter and caster, so he does really not need to be fast

- Shadow Dragon
=> upper average? Or as fast the Arch Angels? Don't remember atm. - but they are certainly not slow.

Now the
- Devils
=> slow. Yes, indeed. But did you forget they can summon pitlords? If your high initiative non retaliation first strike units - cerberi - are crossing the BF and killing a complete opponent stack , you could summon these pit lords even on the devil's first turn. And devils are none of the first creatures on ATB startup.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 30 May 2006, 21:16

DaemianLucifer wrote:But we have to many charging units.It seems that every town has one.

But that's only 6 creatures....

theGryphon · Unread postby **theGryphon** » 30 May 2006, 21:24

Only Cavalier->Paladin and Dark->Grim Raider have the charge ability right? So 4 out of 90, that's not too much. Plus, the charge abilities for Cavaliers and Raiders work differently. Former get attack advantage, latter get defence handicap for opponent

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 30 May 2006, 21:31

@Jerrie

Cerberi runs as far as the angels/dragons can fly.I call that pretty slow.

theGryphon wrote:Only Cavalier->Paladin and Dark->Grim Raider have the charge ability right? So 4 out of 90, that's not too much. Plus, the charge abilities for Cavaliers and Raiders work differently. Former get attack advantage, latter get defence handicap for opponent

Oh?So they changed it?Great!Finally a change thats good.

Purple Sky · Unread postby **Purple Sky** » 30 May 2006, 21:34

So let me get this straight. The only slower units than devils are the titans who in turn are shooters? Doesnt sound too right.

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