New Devil teleport-far Mod!

[Wolfshanze]

Also, H3 and H4 before had Devils teleporting all over the place and nobody complained about that before. It sure was balanced in those games.

I missed this reply... but I have to interject (yet again)

In Heroes 3 (and 4 I suppose...), Devils teleported all over.... yeah.

In H3, Angels flew everywhere, and could get to that one hex that devils couldnt... but both owned the entire battlemap (for the most part). There is NO creature that does that in H5.

In H5, again, no creature can make it to the other corner in one turn. Emerald and Black dragons, being the fastest in the game (for hireable from town creatures), cant even move the entire battlefield in one turn. They have speed 9, and can however attack a "large" creature directly opposite them (or within 2 hexes I -think-). So, this is why I said you would have to change all the creatures, because you would.

I'm guilty myself as to not being precise in my statements.

My main point of contention is that Devils are just flat-out TOO SLOW. Speed-7 is incredibly ridiculous for a level-7 unit with no worthwhile specials.

I don't LITERALLY mean they should teleport ANYWHERE (my fault for not clarifying), my argument is that they are WAAAAAY too slow, and that's compared to other units like the Emerald and Black Dragons. They need a speed bump, and a good one at that.

Speed-11 (like OTHER level-7 units) would be a nice start. Like in H3, Devils would then be more on-par with other level-7s, not way over or under.

Finally, just teleporting to the other side without any other changes does not make them killers... they're still not all that tough and get get killed if the first thing they do is jump in the middle of the enemy ranks, they can get swamped and killed.

Consider that perfect balance.

[Vision]

I'm guilty myself as to not being precise in my statements.

My main point of contention is that Devils are just flat-out TOO SLOW. Speed-7 is incredibly ridiculous for a level-7 unit with no worthwhile specials.

I don't LITERALLY mean they should teleport ANYWHERE (my fault for not clarifying), my argument is that they are WAAAAAY too slow, and that's compared to other units like the Emerald and Black Dragons. They need a speed bump, and a good one at that.

Speed-11 (like OTHER level-7 units) would be a nice start. Like in H3, Devils would then be more on-par with other level-7s, not way over or under.

Finally, just teleporting to the other side without any other changes does not make them killers... they're still not all that tough and get get killed if the first thing they do is jump in the middle of the enemy ranks, they can get swamped and killed.

Consider that perfect balance.

Ok, lets go into detail here:

Green Dragon: Speed 8 - Emerald - 9
Colossus: speed 6 (SIX!!!) - Titan - 6 (SIX AGAIN!!!)
Angel: Speed 6 (OMGWTFBBQ!!!!) - Archangel - 8
Shadow Dragon: Speed 9 - Black - 9
Devil: Speed 7 - ArchDevil - 7
Bone Dragon: Speed 6 (Six, again?!?!?) - Spectral - 7

So, how is a speed of 7 not in line with other level 7 creatures, where the speed ranges from 6 (lower than your precious devils) to the highest, 9 (owned by dungeons dragons, and the Emerald only). You will see with the speed 11 devils you can now use that they become extremely imbalanced, overpowered, and outright ludicrous.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Vision

So just because we have a single creature that can battledive means that its imbalanced?

So just because we have a single creature with ranged retal means its imbalancing?

So just because we have a single creature with area effect shot it means its imbalanced?

And a mod cannot break the balance since you dont have to use it if it does.Modding is actually fine tuning of the game until the perfect balance is achieved.Someone notices something imbalancing(like slow devils),and mods it.Then people try it.If it is still imbalanced,it gets moded again,and again and again,until it gets balanced.

[Vision]

@Vision

So just because we have a single creature that can battledive means that its imbalanced?

Never said that, nor did I say the following two statements. Dont try to put spin on what I am actually saying.

So just because we have a single creature with ranged retal means its imbalancing?

So just because we have a single creature with area effect shot it means its imbalanced?

And a mod cannot break the balance since you dont have to use it if it does.Modding is actually fine tuning of the game until the perfect balance is achieved.Someone notices something imbalancing(like slow devils),and mods it.Then people try it.If it is still imbalanced,it gets moded again,and again and again,until it gets balanced.

So, slow devils (which I utterly destroyed the basis of because of actual facts and in-game stats) is a reason to mod? Sure. Stating they are not in-line with other level 7 creatures (a flat out lie) to help promote said mod is also a reason, but a VERY bad, VERY flawed one.


Another point

My main point of contention is that Devils are just flat-out TOO SLOW. Speed-7 is incredibly ridiculous for a level-7 unit with no worthwhile specials.

Gating and insta-summon of pit lords (the OMG creature here... damn its awesome) are not worthwhile specials?

[DaemianLucifer]

Never said that, nor did I say the following two statements. Dont try to put spin on what I am actually saying.

Yes you did.You said that no other creature in the game can cross the BF,so thats why devils shouldnt be able to as well.

So, slow devils (which I utterly destroyed the basis of because of actual facts and in-game stats) is a reason to mod? Sure. Stating they are not in-line with other level 7 creatures (a flat out lie) to help promote said mod is also a reason, but a VERY bad, VERY flawed one.

How do you know its flawed?Did you test it for hours in game?

Another point
My main point of contention is that Devils are just flat-out TOO SLOW. Speed-7 is incredibly ridiculous for a level-7 unit with no worthwhile specials.
Gating and insta-summon of pit lords (the OMG creature here... damn its awesome) are not worthwhile specials?

No they are not.You cant gate devils unless you are very high level.And used the summon pit fiend just once,and out of fun.

[Vision]

Yes you did.You said that no other creature in the game can cross the BF,so thats why devils shouldnt be able to as well.

ok, let me re-phrase so that you stop taking the post out of context. No other creature in the game, that can be bought from towns, can cross the battlefield in one turn of movement using speed as their movement points

How do you know its flawed?Did you test it for hours in game?

It is not an in-game thing to have a statement that devils are slow and "not in-line with other tier 7 creatures" be proven wrong. His statement that they are not in-line is either an outright lie (I dont think he lied) or a flawed perception. Has nothing to do with "testing" in-game.

No they are not.You cant gate devils unless you are very high level.And used the summon pit fiend just once,and out of fun.

Very high level meaning ultimate gating. I dont think that level 16-20 is "very high" level... I think you can get ultimate gating at that time (though I could very well be wrong as I have not tested it)

Having expert gating and summon pit lords means that you can get more lords, lots of them. ArchDevils ability to summon arguably the best tier6 unit in the game, coupled with the fact that devils are actually in-line speed wise with other tier7 creatures leaves me with my original point. This mod if used by the masses will destroy balance.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

To go into why I feel this way: H3 Conflux. BANNED in MP. H3 Necropolis: BANNED in MP. H3 Chaining: BANNED in MP. H3 Dd: BANNED in MP. H3 Necromancy BANNED in MP. H3 Diplomacy, Hill Fort, Grail, Hit and Run, BANNED in MP.

The list goes on for what seems like ages. Why? Because people whined, moaned, complained to no end about "This is too powerful" and "that isnt powerful enough" and "X is a game breaker". I watched as my beloved game went downhill because of people whining about the game not being to -THEIR- liking. I am seeing the same crap for H5 already. I have been seeing it since the closed beta started. People whining that "Inquisitors" shouldnt have halos, and shouldnt be in the same place as angels. The Gargoyle is "ugly"... necromancy is "too uber". Frankly, I am sickened by it. I am starting to wish that Ubi didnt fold to the community on many things, most notably, the inquisitor (which started this trend).

The game isnt perfect, thats for sure. No game starts out perfect, and I have yet to see a game that ends that way. It isnt perfect, but it is not far from being "classic". The gargoyles, while some dont like the way they look, are great. Both the old (and the new) treants have their pros and cons. I have NO problems with people changing models, that can be done and it wont affect MP at all. These people who are doing the demand for mods like this one, or worse yet, the Black Knight mod, are the ones that worry me. The devil movement is only the beginning, and I wanted to nip it where it stood.

It is obvious that wont happen. If the MP state turns into banning of heroes, castles, and skills because of it, I for one will be utterly disgusted and totally put-off by it. It happened in H3, I dont want the same happening to H5

[Wolfshanze]

@Vision

So just because we have a single creature that can battledive means that its imbalanced?

So just because we have a single creature with ranged retal means its imbalancing?

So just because we have a single creature with area effect shot it means its imbalanced?

Don't forget this one...

Count how many Level-1 spellcaster creatures we have?!?! Does that make the game unbalanced?

There are still several Level-7 creatures that are "beefier" in combat then the Devil... in hit points especially. Just because you "could" teleport into the middle of enemy ranks right off the bat, doesn't mean it's always a smart move. After a couple of turns of combat, high-speed units are no better then low speed units anyways, so what's the big deal?

Archangels and upgraded Dragons are beefier, faster and have better specials then Arch Devils as-is now, and two Bone Dragons is better then one Devil... how's that for balance? Once units get mixed, the speed advantage falls off completely, so what's so bad about a one-turn POSSIBLE scoop for the Devil? In a huge battle, it might be just as stupid to teleport at the beginning of the turn dead in the middle of your opponents ranks.

What gets me is why do people get so upset that OTHER people might want to do this TO THEIR-OWN GAME. Why do some folks find this so damn offensive? If you're happy with the way it is now... GOOD FOR YOU. DON'T FLAME OTHER PEOPLE FOR THINKING DIFFERANTLY.

[DaemianLucifer]

ok, let me re-phrase so that you stop taking the post out of context. No other creature in the game, that can be bought from towns, can cross the battlefield in one turn of movement using speed as their movement points

Again:So what?That would mean that we should either remove griffins and succubi,or tone them down,or give some other creature with battle dive,chain attack,and ranged retal,because no other creature in the game has it.Just because the initial release has one creature with a speed of 7 doesnt mean that it should stay like that forever.

It is not an in-game thing to have a statement that devils are slow and "not in-line with other tier 7 creatures" be proven wrong. His statement that they are not in-line is either an outright lie (I dont think he lied) or a flawed perception. Has nothing to do with "testing" in-game.

Its not just his oppinion that devils are weak.Its my oppinion as well.And oppinion of many others as far as I can see.Its usually just the majority oppinion that counts.

Very high level meaning ultimate gating. I dont think that level 16-20 is "very high" level... I think you can get ultimate gating at that time (though I could very well be wrong as I have not tested it)

if it was 16-20 I wouldnt say its high.Its more likely 25-30.

[Vision]

He didnt say weak. I agree that they are a LITTLE weak.

He said slow, so slow in fact that they are "much slower and not in line with other level 7 units". That is outright wrong.

as for your trying to compare SPECIALS with base MOVEMENT shows that you are putting blinders on to my entire argument here. Fine, so be it. Ignore the facts and spin it your way some more.

25-30 is high enough to say it is "very high", but it still looks balanced.

[Vision]

Archangels and upgraded Dragons are beefier, faster and have better specials then Arch Devils as-is now, and two Bone Dragons is better then one Devil... how's that for balance? Once units get mixed, the speed advantage falls off completely, so what's so bad about a one-turn POSSIBLE scoop for the Devil? In a huge battle, it might be just as stupid to teleport at the beginning of the turn dead in the middle of your opponents ranks.

OMGWTFBBQ!!! TWO bones are more powerful than ONE devil??? OH, THE AGONY!. Sounds balanced to me. You want Two bone dragons to die to one devil? laff.

Did you know you can get Devils AND a captiol by end of week 2? From a level 1 start? Wonder why that is?

[DaemianLucifer]

All level 7s are too slow.And devils are to slow compared to most units,not just level 7s.Devils teleport,so they should have the greatest range.SImple as that.

[Gaidal Cain]

Very high level meaning ultimate gating. I dont think that level 16-20 is "very high" level... I think you can get ultimate gating at that time (though I could very well be wrong as I have not tested it)

Only way I've seen to get the Ultimate abilities is to get the Artifact that gives you another level in your special skill. Sure, Devils can in theory gate, but it's rather unlikely. As far as I'm concerned, it's way to early to say what creatures needs to have their stats altered for "balance's" sake.

And the Level 7:s has very good speed. I for one don't want a return to the H3 way where level 7:s could do whatever they wanted on the field just because of their ridiculus speed.

[Vision]

So, with your argument DL, Angels (and other creatures) fly, so they should have the greatest range (or second greatest), simple as that.

Your argument is flawed, but I am about to head out to buy a new car. I will point out the obvious issues with your statement when I return.

[DaemianLucifer]

So, with your argument DL, Angels (and other creatures) fly, so they should have the greatest range (or second greatest), simple as that.

Your argument is flawed, but I am about to head out to buy a new car. I will point out the obvious issues with your statement when I return.

No,my argument is that angels are big flyers and that why they should have the greates range(second to teleport,of course,but since the BF is so small,its hard to balance this).And so should dragons.

[Vision]

What about sprites? They fly... why can they not have the entire battlefield (like they did in h2 and I -think- h3)?

Your answer, based on previous posts, would be "they are not "big" creatures."

Making devils able to hit anything on the entire battlefield because they teleport is flawed, just like allowing angels or sprites access because they fly is flawed.

The separation of initiative and speed allows for a much wider and more dynamic range of movement (because higher initiative means you move more often). Pushing a unit into THE highest movement simply because they "teleport" would break that "mechanism" of the game, whether they have lower HP or not... which brings me to another point:

Creature - Att - Def - Hp - Upg - Att - Def - HP
Devils - 27 - 25 - 166 - ArchDevils - 31 - 29 - 199
Angels - 27 - 27 - 180 - ArchAngels - 31 - 31 - 220
Green Drag - 27 - 25 - 200 - Emerald - 31 - 27 - 200
Colossus - 27 - 27 - 175 Titan - 30 - 30 - 190
Shadow Drag - 25 - 24 - 200 - Black - 30 - 30 - 240
Bone Drag - 27 - 28 - 150 Spectral - 30 - 28 - 160

Devils (and Arch Devils) are in-line with all other level 7 creatures. The game, as it is, is fairly well balanced to begin with. Sure, there will be balance changes in patches, but the game as a whole is much better balance wise than just about any other Heroes game was upon initial release

[Extrakun]

Wow, lets break the game by introducing a game-breaking feature that people (who love to whine, *****, moan, and complain about EVERY-GODDAMN-THING) think should be in the game.

The creature skills are set the way they are because, duh, it is balanced. Devils can teleport anywhere now? What are you going to do next, make it so that Angels fly anywhere? How about just uninstalling and going back to the old and outdated H3, because that is what you -REALLY- want.

The fan community of Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic released their own custom patch to fix imbalances in the game after 2 iterations of 'offical patches' failed to. This is one instance where the game community can fill in the gap which developers left wide open.

AT any rate, Arch-Devils in HoMM III can cross the map in one turn. I am quite peeved that it doesn't. I notice your comparison doesn't include Speed and Initiative. Simply put, one of the most important strategy in HoMM is the first strike, unless you are fighting stacks with unlimited retitlation. But in an evenly matched army, first strike is important. Speed and Initiative are big contribution to that tactic.

Vision, no one is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to download this mod. Do you really have to prove that everyone else who support this mod is a whiner and a griever?

[Extrakun]

So, with your argument DL, Angels (and other creatures) fly, so they should have the greatest range (or second greatest), simple as that.

Don't they?

By the converse of your reasoning, so all the dragons shall be the slowest?

Flying has nothing to do with speed in the design of HoMM. Flying's only advantage is that it allows you to avoid obstacles.

[Wolfshanze]

The fan community of Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic released their own custom patch to fix imbalances in the game after 2 iterations of 'offical patches' failed to. This is one instance where the game community can fill in the gap which developers left wide open.

AT any rate, Arch-Devils in HoMM III can cross the map in one turn. I am quite peeved that it doesn't.

AOW: Shadow Magic is a great game... always loved it (got any good links BTW?).

As for HOMM5, I increased the speed of Inferno Devils & Arch Devils... no other changes have been made. You can download my DevilMod.pak here.

Devils now have a movement of: 9
Arch Devils now have a movement of: 10

Simple as I could make it to install. It's a PAK file, so simply dump into your HOMM5 "DATA" folder... no fuss at all.

Vision posted a change where both are speed-11 earlier in this thread. Arstahd listed near the start of the thread where the files are located... it's a simple process to change them if you don't find what you like here.

[asandir]

jeeps ... this thread has got a little exciting!!

[Vision]

Holy crap.

How did I miss that post. Boy, I am about to feel like a turd....

I am sorry for thinking I was the first to do something (in this thread) for you for this mod. I did not see the second post, and ....

I feel like a turd.