Heroes 5 isn't a true Heroes of Might & Magic game.

[CrownedWombat]

@smith-b-d:

First off, I'm in no way a Blizzard fanboy, I don't even like their games. My point is, that they are successful and well liked by the masses.

Also, I'm not talking about elves and dwarfs, but about visual design. I don't know Warhammer, but it is very clear to me that Nival and Ubi followed Blizzard in adopting a manga-like aesthetic for their units very similar to that used in the recent Warcraft titles. Which in turn reminds me very much of the Record of Lodoss War animes, to those of you that may know them. It's the mainstream now and comes off very cheap, if you ask me.

Also, this is not the MM universe you know from the 80ies we're talking about. Nival made a point out of redoing the myth and history of the H5 world. This part (talking about the story/setting) is actually done pretty well, while not being original in any way (see the origins of the orcs for instance).

As a contrast, I'd like to point out the visuals of Disciples 3 (at least the concept art I've seen). Maybe that's a ripoff of something I don't know, but it has a sinister, refreshing touch to it, unlike the Nth re-iteration of the well-known bubblegum-fantasy worlds.

And maybe you'll actually use your brain (you know - read, think, write) next time, before posting rude comments and flaming on people. You don't seem to be in the place to welcome other people to adulthood.

[smith-b-d]

Blizzard may have been mediocre at some things but they have never been mediocre from a perceived quality and "fun" perspective. If you have evidence to the contrary though I'm willing to listen.

In the early days the company focused on creating game ports for other studios. Ports include titles such as J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, Vol. I and Battle Chess II: Chinese Chess

Mediocre to the extreme...

Do you think that Blizzard is in their position totally by accident?

And do you think blizzard have always done things the way they do them now? They used to works for other studios you know.

You don't seem to be in the place to welcome other people to adulthood.

Lol, insult for a insult... maybe next time you'll actually use your brain (you know - read, think, write) and realize how hypocritical you are.

[CrownedWombat]

Nice one. Except that I'm not insulting you, but merely stating that your behavior is far from acceptable. Calling me a douche bag and an @$$hole without any provocation is a pretty poor proof of maturity. And yes, we get it, you hate Blizzard. Couldn't care less.

[Alamar]

@smith b-d:

I wasn't aware of Blizzard's participation in those titles. If you've played those titles I'd be interested to hear feedback in perceived quality and things of that nature.

I don't admit to being a Blizzard historian so there are many elements to their story that I don't have a grasp on. If you have direct experience with mediocre or poor Blizzard titles then I won't contradict your assertions.

However the question remains is how Blizzard [and a few other game companies] got to the position that they are currently in. Was this pure chance or is there a solid reason why they are in that position?

[Corribus]

So you see, Corribus, you are not the only person that the game is aimed at..

*I* am the one who said it was subjective. *You* are the one who said it was not. In fact you said:

What's so subjective about windowed mode? So many games have it, it is really useful and it can't be tremendously hard to implement. It has become something like a standard, beyond the preferences of individual fans. It should be in as an option and that's that.

So please tell me why you think I believe the game is only aimed at me? If anyone here seems to believe that the game needs to be catered to what they like, and that what they like is the only way, and "that's that", it would be you, my friend.

[Metal Wolf]

In H2, which I mostly played, I was trembling in my castle when the "violet guy" on Broken Alliance came around, throwing all my forces at him in a desperate attempt to survive. It was drama, epic battles with a lone boar running around while the broken remains of my towers shot down the enemy...

Oh man! What a nostalgia... Yep, H2 was THE game... (though, as I've posted before, imo H5 coems second right after him).
Broken Alliance was my favourite map ever! The "purple guy"...
I can still remember this map to details, 11 years after...

[smith-b-d]

However the question remains is how Blizzard [and a few other game companies] got to the position that they are currently in. Was this pure chance or is there a solid reason why they are in that position?

...and why is it that the creators of thief, ss2 or planescape:torment are no longer despite how great those game were... its because sales are by no means a measure of quality. Blizzard had the fortune to develop some games that appealed to more people, this gave them more funds for opportunities that others don't have.

Blizzards first real game was warcraft & their first independent game, before that they were just another dev team like any other working for interplay and others. Blizzard have had the opportunity to break away from the whole standard publisher/developer relationship so they can head in their own direction and cut out the middle man, yous all seem to be oblivious to the fact that this is pretty much the goal all dev teams, to become independent, they want to experience the success that blizzard has too you know. Some developers try to follow the same methodologies as companies like blizzard, but its very rare that any of them succeed. Because without a well known publisher its very difficult to get funds for development & even more difficult to get your product onto the shelves of your local ebgames, this is dues to the fact that the well know publishers buy a percentage of shelf space so that when you go into stores the majority of product on display are theirs.

Independent developers:
Independents are small software developers that are not owned by or beholden to a single publisher.
Some of these developers self-publish their games, relying on the Internet and word of mouth for publicity. Without the huge marketing budgets of mainstream publishers, their products never get as much recognition or popular acclaim as those of larger publishers.

Thats why most developers don't do things the way blizzard does. Until they get enough recognition to they simply cannot. Nival dont have independence and cannot simply develop heroes 5 to be however they want it to be, after all its ubi thats paying them and setting their milestones.

EDIT:

solid reason why they are in that position?

Just as a extra point on that. If success in life was as simple as just a 'solid reason' for everything, then 40% of the worlds wealth surely wouldn't be only in the hands of a meager 1% while the bottom half has barely 1%.

Except that I'm not insulting you,

Except that yes you are, whether that was your intention or not doesn't matter, anyone here can understand that you did it so get over it & don't try to deny it like a coward.

but merely stating that your behavior is far from acceptable

You are not my parents, you are not the moderator, you are not god, you are in any position of power over me whatsoever... you have no say as to what behavior is acceptable from anyone here or anywhere else in the world. So go hide behind your 'merely stating' somewhere else.

[Jolly Joker]

Blizzard's big hit was Warcraft II, practically inventing RTS games and especially FANTASY RTS games for that matter.

And H 5 is very obviously influenced by WarHAMMER, and while that is debatable, it's not the worst thing on this world. Let's face it, most fantasy sucks badly, it's the most unoriginal genre there is and most of the stuff around is just plain BAD. For a series Warhammer isn't so bad, in fact the universe, both fantasy and 40K has its moments.

However, for this thread this seems abit beside the point. The question was whether it is a real HoMM game or not.

[Ohma]

Frakking ay’ Smith, you need to settle the frell down. I’m sure that whatever perceived insult you think Alamar gave you, wasn’t worth the full force of your “mighty intarwebz rage111”.

As for the topic at hand: Yeh’ I agree (in part) with the people who don’t like HoMM V. I’m not going to say that it “isn’t a *TRUE* HoMM game” (because it is and that’s a fallacious statement), nor am I going to say that Ubi are the evilzors/killed HoMM ect. (though it *has* been my experience that Ubi is a company with plenty of money to throw around at projects that need extra time/money…but they just don’t have the patience to let the people working on those projects produce results).

But I’m still unimpressed with V, and if I could go back in time to convince myself not to plunk $50 down on a copy (without destroying causality…’cause I can *so* go back in time…), I would. Not that the game mechanics are really even that bad (really they’re the best part since they’re pretty much the same ones from all four previous games). It’s everything else is just…off…

Mostly the game just feels over complex, and burdened by its “darker” world.

The first three games were really more like computerized board games. Nearly anyone could get started easily enough in a hot seat game with a friend, and while there were many hidden levels of complexity, you didn’t *need* to understand them to have fun/not die horribly (unless you played the campaign and the AI just sent 20+ heroes after you).

[Corribus]

The question was whether it is a real HoMM game or not.

As has been shown to be important in other threads, for us to have any sort of productive discussion on the matter, I think we need to come to some sort of consensus about what "real" means in this context.

[Kristo]

You are not my parents, you are not the moderator, you are not god, you are in any position of power over me whatsoever... you have no say as to what behavior is acceptable from anyone here or anywhere else in the world. So go hide behind your 'merely stating' somewhere else.

This and the rest of your inflammatory comments will not be tolerated. Cool it.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

By the way, Heroes 5 has only gotten 4% of the "Favourite Heroes game" poll as of this writing, on the H1-H4 forum.

I would expect even a "mediocre" game to do better than that.

viewtopic.php?t=7058&start=30

[Corribus]

I'm not sure that's what I would call a controlled study.

[Alamar]

I'm not sure that's what I would call a controlled study.

Esp. considering that it's a forum for H1-H4. If H5 wasn't well behind those titles I'd be astonished

As to whether H5 is a real heroes game it seems "realish" to me. This doesn't mean the game is as great as H1-H3 but it still seems HoMMish enough to say it's real. [Passes the quack test]

[Jolly Joker]

Big point you have there, UndeadHalfOrc. Which game would be more Heroes of Might and Magic than Heroes of Might and Magic? The one without any number behind it. And look how many votes it got.
I still fail to see your point.

[Blake]

Apologies for the delayed responses. Work’s been a real b****.

Blake - Really liked your post, very well written. Totally agree with you.

Thanks!

But I will argue against all this foolish talk of Ubisoft killing HoMM. 3DO (almost) killed the series (just ask all the ex-NWC employees, I can still remember all their angry posts all those years ago), ...

Killing a game depends so much on what one loves in game and what defines the game for him/her. For those who additionally to HoMM are fans of MM games the universe and story matters a lot. And I hope you do not deny that Ubi exactly killed the universe of ancients and sci-fi and replaced it with dragon gods. There would be same type of killing issues if Starcraft 2 would not have any reference to Kerrigan or Zeratul or Xel'naga.

A game series is dead when it makes no money, H5 has made money therefore it has not killed the series. Someone’s personal love of the storylines being killed is insignificant in the larger scheme of things because, we can line up just a many people who aren’t upset and are at least ‘satisfied’ in the story. No matter what designers choose they’re gonna piss someone off. But I understand your point as I wasn’t exactly thrilled with a new world either so I’ll answer your statement with the effort it deserves..

Heh ahh Pitsu I still remember your original horrified posts (about the new dragons gods story) over a year and half ago, and I must admit I pretty much agreed with you at the time, but for you to agree with UndeadHalfOrc that Heroes 5 is not a true heroes game because of this? That I cannot agree with you on mate.

While I agreed with you 2 years ago I wasn’t as upset as you due to the fact you know as well as I do that 3DO/NWC had already sent us fans down this road before with Heroes4. In a mere 60 second intro video (the only dam video the game had I’ll point out ) they managed to annihilate nearly every piece of connection to Heroes 1-3 and started fresh, I was horiffied. They chucked in some references to the Gryphonheart/Ironfist bloodline and Tarnam etc in the campaigns but really it was all over. Every place and character that we had grown to care about from Heroes 1-3 and MM6-8 was gone, and not just ‘somewhere else in the galaxy’, no they were DEAD. New world, new story and a very different style of gameplay yet people still call it a Heroes game. Now along comes H5 doing a new world again but returning the game play to a more H3 style and yet now people don’t consider it a true heroes game.

I said it before and I’ll say it again.. Ridiculous lol..

That's an interesting statement. I personally don't know anyone who has the game that wasn't already a fan of the series.

Interesting? Heh not really. Just boring fact. Other’s have already given examples of what I meant eg newcomers & superior sales etc, but I will add to their posts that I lurk a large amount of gaming forums and have started many Heroes 5 discussions. I was amazed at how many people posting had never played 1-4 but had bought 5 due to liking the pics, vids, and demo’s etc. I almost felt sorry for them lol, but hey new blood breaths new life in the fan base!

You’ve just admitted to a personal vendetta against Ubisoft eliminating all weight behind your initial post and argument against Heroes 5.

So? JJ works for Ubisoft, does that invalidate all his pro-Heroes V comments? What about the people that love/hate the game beyond all reason, they certainly aren’t unbiased! In short: it’s an internet forum, don’t stress about it.

Clever point, but unnecessary since that sentence you quoted was only a portion of the point I was making and the next 2 sentences I wrote after that really makes your defence of him pointless. He hasn’t even played Heroes 5 due to his ‘I don’t touch Ubisoft products’ philosophy therefore his hatred of Heroes 5 is invalid. I mean the guy wants to blow up their building for Christ sake lol!!

If UndeadHalfOrc now replies to my post and says I’m wrong because he’s played the game then his ‘I don’t touch Ubisoft products’ philosophy is a lie. If says he hasn’t played the game then his statements about Heroes 5 being crap and not a true heroes game are invalid.

I consdier this 'checkmate' on his position in this thread (no I don't play chess but hey it sounded good lol). People can voice their own opinions but anyone else who trys to defend his personal view is just wasting their time lol.

that has now led to half this community getting into an argument about Heroes 5. Ridiculous..

Someone would have started it eventually anyway; there’s too much bitterness about the game for it to stick to side comments forever.

True but would the thread have been so intense? His first 3 posts are full of passionate anti ubisoft/H5 hatred. Such aggressive words guarantee passionate aggressive responses.

lol I had to laugh at that comment. Thanks to H4 it’s a bloody miracle we’re all even here talking about H5. Its lack of sales sent 3DO to the grave and NWC with it.

Just mentioning that 3DO was in deep troubles before H4 and H4 sales wasn't a decisive coin.

Thanks to H4 it’s a bloody miracle we’re all even here talking about H5. Its lack of sales sent 3DO to the grave and NWC with it.

3DO brought itself down, H4 just happened to go down with it. Remember, 3DO didn’t JUST have the Might and Magic brand to work with. IIRC they also had Army Men and a baseball game, and probably others I don’t know about.

Correct, I am aware of that and probably should have worded my sentence differently so you two could have saved your time. But the point I was making was that Heroes 4 was a large contributing factor. 3DO was already going to hell resulting in them grabbing NCW by the balls and forcing them to rush out an unfinished & unpolished game hoping that its sales would save them (once I again I refer to posts by ex NWC employees), instead all they did was seal their grave and nearly taking the M&M name with them.

By the way, Heroes 5 has only gotten 4% of the "Favourite Heroes game" poll as of this writing, on the H1-H4 forum.
I would expect even a "mediocre" game to do better than that.

LMFAO! This guy cracks me up.. I second Corribus’s response.

[saugeen]

I really like the Heroes of M&M series of games 3,4,&5. Unfortunately I never got the opportunity to play KB and Heroes 1&2. I was introduced to HoMM a few years ago, when a friend of mine gave a demo of H3. In fact I had the demo filed away because I didn't think I would like that type of game. Until one day when I was looking for a different game to play, I installed it and played it, and I was hooked. Now have all the HoMM games, except one of the H4 expansion packs. HoMM games have spoiled me from playing other games like NeverwinterNights2, Lord of the Rings and Dark Messiah but I just can't get into them. And I love the grafics and the cutscenes in H5. I find them entertaining. And I still play H3&4 once in a while for a change

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Blake, NO I didn't buy the game, but I have heard so much and read so much about it, plus saw many video demos and of course all the screenshots that make me NOT want to even touch it. The graphics are just plain ugly (IMHO), the game didn't even have the Barbarian castle (a staple in the Heroes series and a favorite of mine since Heroes 1, it takes them a 2nd expansion for them to even make one), everyone I know is saying the AI and map editor is crap, on and on. Just like I knew I didn't need to buy MOO3 after I've read a few reviews.

I know how biased I sound, but maybe you should read my original topic more carefully. I said out front that the topic was an unapologetic Ubisuck hate topic. I never danced around it or showed myself to be hypocritical in any way. Maybe you would understand my passionate hatred for Ubi$uck better if you lived in Montreal when they came around here around 10-12 years ago, with their big egos, deals to get money from the governement, deals with universities for so called specialized trainings (which are just a clever way to get more money from goverment again).

Maybe you would understand my passionate hatred for Ubi$uck better if you personally knew how arrogant and full of themselves their employees are, IN PERSON, and mostly their people that they brought in from France to take charge of us little people here in Quebec. A guy I knew from college changed radically after he started working for them... he became full of himself, bragging about how much money he made and started hanging out only with Ubi$uck employees.

You would have to point a gun to my face to make me shell even ONE cent of my hard earned money to Ubi$uck.

[Kristo]

And with that, I believe this thread has run its course. UndeadHalfOrc, your leeway has run out. Everyone needs to vent now and then. But this is a forum for discussion, not a blog.

Thread locked.