Planning to Buy ‘Tribes of the East?’

[MistWeaver]

Less disputed and more well-known example of "BAD TASTE", to prove the point.

"Devil wears Prada"

Same girl:

Bad (or none) taste
http://www.kino-govno.com/images/devilw ... rada_5.jpg

Good taste
http://www.kino-govno.com/images/devilw ... rada_6.jpg


And people with bad taste almost never admit that. They say smth like "I dont need all that sht"(if about clothes) or "and who the f. are you to say so"

[ThunderTitan]

"Bad taste" is something the author of this book, Norman Spinrad, is accusing most fantasy readers of.

Yes...

[Jolly Joker]

Which isn't entirely clear from the quote you cited which left me a bit confused.

Anyway, human life itself, as it's been rolling down history road, has had an extremely bad taste or better a profound lack of taste: there's a plethora of things and events and deeds and real life stories that would be considered extremely bad taste or lacking in taste if "thought out", but have happened or are happening in reality.
"Taste" is more or less a luxury you have to be able to afford first and foremost. It's - stripped down to the core - an invention of the rich and mighty and goes hand in hand with "style" which was supposed to be within the bounds of good taste, but that has changed since someone found out you can make a fortune by selling "bad taste" - either because the majority of people have bad taste or because they don't care as long as enough people share the same so you can enjoy it.

In the end no point based on something like "taste" whether good or bad has any relevance on another than the personal level.

[ThunderTitan]

Anyway, human life itself, as it's been rolling down history road, has had an extremely bad taste or better a profound lack of taste: there's a plethora of things and events and deeds and real life stories that would be considered extremely bad taste or lacking in taste if "thought out", but have happened or are happening in reality.

So are we done with you explaining what i said?

either because the majority of people have bad taste or because they don't care as long as enough people share the same so you can enjoy it.

It's the first one... that's what trends are about.

[Jolly Joker]

As I said, it doesn't seem to be entirely clear what you attempted to say.

And for taste, no, the majority doesn't have bad taste. They have NO taste, because they are not interested in "taste" except for things with a specific personal interest in it which most will develop their own personal taste. If you are interested in having a good time only you care squat about whether the movie you see is considered tasteless by the movie critics or the "experts" with a special interest in thrill movies as long as it is thrilling - which will lead to millions of people seeing a tasteless but thrilling movie and people looking like being tasteless.

As I said, taste is a luxury you have to be able (and want) to afford to.

[Wolfsburg]

You are right MistWeaver. Its a terrible curse! Pseudo-Messia! Im even surprised how you didnt trace my adress and sent the FBI over.

Now seriously, I dont think Hitler is cool, or an aborted foetus, or mutilated corpses or any other dantistic examples you might come up with. And I dont like people who like mutilated corpses as well.

But, you cannot deny that there are people who find this things beautiful, and therefore it is indeed possible that beauty exists in everything. Look at the sentence of Confucius again. Perhaps its exactly that evil and sick tune that we dont have, the keystone to find those things beautiful. Who knows? And if I happened to like the gargoyle, it would be MY personal tuning, my aesthetic appreciation, and unlike the simplistic example of an aborted foetus you cannot just say: its wrong.

Thunder Titan wrose enormously in my concept with a beautiful sentence. BAD TASTE EXISTS. Wheter you like it or not, it exists. Which once and again, despite you attempts, show that im right.

There is beauty on everything. Even in the Gargoyle, and (oh my god) even in Heroes 4. The problem is that it needs a personal tuning, because... (and for the last time, I swear)

Beauty is subjective.

P.S - You are an aggressive debater. We can even make a new poll on that.

[Orfinn]

One more thing, about TotE addon. You ppl who like H5 "visual side" You really like this too ?

As 'barbarians' they don't look that bad, but I was hoping for 'real' orcs (green skinned and uglier)

Greenskins are just plain used up, do you really want these H5 orcs to be unoriginal huh? Orange FTW! The color feels fiercer to, like red and yellow.
You just dont get the bulls attention with a green blanket...

[Wolfsburg]

I think I understand in some way what Apocalypse means. Its not only about the color of the orc, but the shape as well. They look somewhat too human. But I have nothing against orange! Its a nice color.

Although Im not sure if one can lure a bull with an orange towel. hehehe.

What I dont get is the small creature with a "pandeiro" in his hand, thats the instrument for playing samba or bossa nova. I am still thinking how much dmg can be caused with a pandeiro. Is it a thowing weapon?

[MistWeaver]

You are right MistWeaver. Its a terrible curse!

I know. I just was bit surprised how fast that left your head and gave way to "Im so polite and sometimes friendly."

Thunder Titan wrose enormously in my concept with a beautiful sentence. BAD TASTE EXISTS. Wheter you like it or not, it exists. Which once and again, despite you attempts, show that im right.

Yeah.. nice try on turning things upside-down. "Bad taste" implies that there is someone who responsible for defining "Good taste" Thats kinda my position.
And youre the guy that all the time told me about: There are no criterias, its all about people with influence who want your money, ets..

Beauty is subjective.

You cant completely separate "beautiful" and "good/bad taste" . Its like if someone tells me that I have bad taste on something, I just need to say "No.. not at all, I just find it beautiful". That doesnt make sense in most cases.

[ThunderTitan]

As I said, taste is a luxury you have to be able (and want) to afford to.

That's still personal taste... It's liking, not liking or being indifferent to something.

Thunder Titan wrose enormously in my concept with a beautiful sentence. BAD TASTE EXISTS. Whether you like it or not, it exists. Which once and again, despite you attempts, show that im right.

So did smallpox, and they got rid of that.

"People have crap taste so you can't demand stuff not to suck" isn't a good argument in my opinion. Sure it's mostly pointless, but if you don't try what's the point?

[Jolly Joker]

The problem is, in my opinion, that is makes no sense at all to demand something in the name of good (or any other) taste because you simply can't debate about that. In fact, if you have to rely on taste to make a point it's more likely you have no point at all except that you don't like it.

[Wolfsburg]

Surprisingly, Mist and Thunder Titan, I am actually from the beggining defending your right to demmand (as consumers, as Mist says). If you follow me here, in both cases, you are the minority. You dislike the art of HOMM5 and praises the art of HOMM4. If there was something like a rule for beauty, and it was determined by the majority, you would be guilty as charge, of bad-taste, and for having a less accurate perception of what is beautiful.

And Id be really cautious when comparing bad-taste to smallpox. Unless you believe bad-taste can be worsened in laboratory and used as a biological weapon (it would kill only those who think its really bad taste)

Brilliant logical ending, Jolly, once and again, right on the spot.


Now, back to what matters. If I am not mistaken, Ubisoft is the exact same company which produces Chessmaster. Have you ever played this game? Do you ever tried a match against THE chessmaster? There is not a chance, even if you are chess-champion since kid, to win the god damn thing. He (IT) makes you miserable, he despises your best efforts as futile, predictable kid moves.

The battles in HOMM are not different at all of a chess match. You have to measure your losses, preserve your best pieces, aim for the most important pieces of the adversary, be precise to avoid traps, etc.

I cannot conceive that the technology used to develop THE chessmaster is so different from the one used to power the AI in HOMM. Than why the heck cant I chose a fighting modus where the computer makes my life a living hell, and my existence miserable?

Is Mist right? Is it designed with the single purpose of losing?

[ThunderTitan]

and praises the art of HOMM4.

Nice, i'm arguing again with someone that doesn't pay attention. I liked the graphic engine, not the rather drab way half the stuff looked.

The problem is, in my opinion, that is makes no sense at all to demand something in the name of good (or any other) taste because you simply can't debate about that.

Yeah, i see how proving bathing in dung is in bad taste would be hard.

[MistWeaver]

praises the art of HOMM4.

Wrong. Both of us didnt say that.
What I said is that there are monsters in H4 that I consider "bad drawn" Maybe they were rushed as well as code.. I dont know.
But I like most of global map graphics. I find it attractive and entire. I like the way how H4 "present" you the gameworld. I like that there are hundreds of global map objects that can make thousands of diffrent looking maps. I like even such small things as diffrent ship type for every faction. (Thats one of things that Nival would never spend resourses on)
So when I play H4 I have the feeling of that world. Something I cant say about H5.

If there was something like a rule for beauty, and it was determined by the majority, you would be guilty as charge, of bad-taste, and for having a less accurate perception of what is beautiful.

Actualy majority have a bad taste, or no taste at all, as JJ said. If not so, may be H5 would be 2D. That wasnt the right time and situation to move game into 3d.

Now, back to what matters. If I am not mistaken, Ubisoft is the exact same company which produces Chessmaster. Have you ever played this game? Do you ever tried a match against THE chessmaster? There is not a chance, even if you are chess-champion since kid, to win the god damn thing. He (IT) makes you miserable, he despises your best efforts as futile, predictable kid moves.

The battles in HOMM are not different at all of a chess match. You have to measure your losses, preserve your best pieces, aim for the most important pieces of the adversary, be precise to avoid traps, etc.

Ok, you dont know much about how AI works in games.

Strong chess AI is much easier to program that strong HoMM AI. Because chess has much narrower game tree complexity. Actualy search tree in chess allows to use simple look over (or brute force) or so called minimax algorithm. (especially with our current processors.) Of course most of current chess algorithms are more "intelectual" like those based on Alpha-beta pruning when bad moves are "cut" more early.

So, as you can see, its not accual AI as I would call it. Its re-calculation. Thats why almost all ppl on the planet are losing to it. They cant keep in head millions situations and count millions + next one.

Heroes have way more more complex situation on battle field and absolutly different situation on global map. So for battle field, maybe can be developed something similar (still more complex), but global AI needs absolutly dissimilar aproach.

Is Mist right? Is it designed with the single purpose of losing?

I dont remember me saing "with the single purpose of losing" Will you ever stop?
I was saying that it is designed to lose (not to win)
viewtopic.php?t=4350&start=0&postdays=0 ... highlight=

[Jolly Joker]

The problem is, in my opinion, that is makes no sense at all to demand something in the name of good (or any other) taste because you simply can't debate about that.

Yeah, i see how proving bathing in dung is in bad taste would be hard.

Didn't YOU say the majority has bad taste? Now I just bet the majority wouldn't like bathing in dung. Where does THAT get you now?

[ThunderTitan]

Didn't YOU say the majority has bad taste? Now I just bet the majority wouldn't like bathing in dung. Where does THAT get you now?

Leaves me waiting for someone to make it fashionable...

So, as you can see, its not accual AI as I would call it. Its re-calculation. Thats why almost all ppl on the planet are losing to it. They cant keep in head millions situations and count millions + next one.

Deep Blue cheated:

"After the loss, Kasparov said that he sometimes saw deep intelligence and creativity in the machine's moves, suggesting that during the second game, human chess players, in contravention of the rules, intervened. IBM denied that it cheated, saying the only human intervention occurred between games. The rules provided for the developers to modify the program between games, an opportunity they said they used to shore up weaknesses in the computer's play revealed during the course of the match. Kasparov requested printouts of the machine's log files but IBM refused, although the company later published the logs on the Internet at http://www.research.ibm.com/deepblue/watch/html/c.shtml. Kasparov demanded a rematch, but IBM declined and retired Deep Blue.

In 2003 a documentary film was made that explored these claims. It was titled Game Over: Kasparov and the Machine and implied that Deep Blue's heavily promoted victory was a plot by IBM to boost its stock value.

The rules allowed the developers to modify the program between games. Deep Blue was modified between games to understand Kasparov's playstyle better, allowing it to avoid a trap in the final game that the computer had fallen for twice before."

[MistWeaver]

Deep Blue cheated

I do not consider this as cheat. Cheating in chess is affecting or moving pieces when its not your turn and/or without conformity with rules. Or tips from 3rd person, which isnt here as well. I dont think that there were programmers at IBM that play chess better than Kasparov. They just tweaked software.

They could simply program it so, that it will "update" itseft in run time or something.

Oh, yes, and that was like 10 years ago. Current "supercomputer" is able on much more.

[Gaidal Cain]

I do not consider this as cheat. Cheating in chess is affecting or moving pieces when its not your turn and/or without conformity with rules. Or tips from 3rd person, which isnt here as well. I dont think that there were programmers at IBM that play chess better than Kasparov. They just tweaked software.

if i challenged you to a game of chess, and you later found out that it wasn't me but Kasparov that had played, I'm pretty sure you'd call it cheating as well.

[MistWeaver]

if i challenged you to a game of chess, and you later found out that it wasn't me but Kasparov that had played, I'm pretty sure you'd call it cheating as well.

You mean that DeepBlue was getting tips from some grand master behind the curtain ?

[ThunderTitan]

The match was between a human and a computer, not between a human and a computer assisted by humans at every turn.

Or tips from 3rd person, which isnt here as well. I dont think that there were programmers at IBM that play chess better than Kasparov. They just tweaked software.

Yeah, they only told him what to do next time so he can win. How is that not "tips from 3rd person"?