Irresistible magic

[Jolly Joker]

So? Do you expect to get the victory delievered on a silver plate? The whole point seems to be to have options.
But let's not forget how this started. You said: "No one in his right mind would do it." Now you answer, "yeah, I could do that (!) OR I could..." Thanks for agreeing with me, GC.

[Sir William S Titan]

@DL, seriously, you should know when you are flogging a dead horse and this horse already stinks.

Indeed:

Should iresistible magic affect your own creatures?
yes
28% [ 14 ]
no
72% [ 36 ]

Not only that, my yes should've been a no.

[DaemianLucifer]

Warlock warlock warlock... warlock. Let`s look at the heroes lore wise for a second. Wizard is supposed to be wise magician, what a surprise he is wise magician in the game Knight is, well, knight so he should lack in SP and knowledge and again what a surprise he lacks in those stats. And here we have a warlock, in majority of the F games i had played(i had played a lot of them) warlocks were powerfull and evil magicians blasting stuff with their magic. In other words masters of destruction. So why in the hell master of destruction should cast some positive spells? Second thing, he has mastered his prefered magic so much that he can even blast things which others magicians couldn`t scratch with magic. In other words warlock is master of destructive magic and not master of light magic or dark magic or summoner. If you fail to see here logic you either are too proud to accept that you are wrong or just fail at some things...

First,heroes is a game of its own,with its own unique rules.Titans are just oversized golems.There you go,different from all the other fantasy games already.And its not the only thing.

And there is a total of 12 skills,and all are learnable by all 6 races.And all should be equally strong when utilized corectly.Just because you have the highest chance to see defense on a knight,doesnt mean youll necesarrilly see it.Warlock is the only race forced to take a certain skill.The others can choose as they wich(and as the random generator offers,of course).

I see your logic,but I dont agree with it.Just because a race/class/creature is like this and this,it doesnt mean it has to be like that in every fantasy game.

In such situations you`ll think "is it worth?". And yes, using area/mass spells without thinking is cheap and should be prevented.

Thats why Im more for allowing all the spells to be cast on MR creatures then the other alternative proposed here.

Mass slow? What about mass haste? Ressurection? What about blasting with spell? All these spells have counter, while armageddon and others area spells don`t- there is no mass ressurection.

I was just following the line of thought.Of course I dont see slow or res overpowered(even though nival did see res overpowered).And neither do I see DD spells overpowered.

You realise that haven army also will be affected by armageddon?

But not enough.6 angels(not counting that they would strike even before you cast armagedon),plus a shot from a hero,plus the paladins that will act before your hero casts armagedon,and your dragons are history.

All area spells can be abused like that, if it isn`t as noticable that doesn`t mean there is no problem.

True,they could.But thats why dragons were made immune in the first place:So they could be thrown in the bunch and not worry about you flinging spells all around,but still ubuffable and unresurectable like other units.

[Jolly Joker]

DL, you KNOW this is silly. You can take a Minotaur and an Assassin with your Dragons and place them so that no Paladins and no Angels will reach the Dragons. That means you will simply cast your first Armageddon without the Dragons being hit. This is completely witless and ridiculous.

[DaemianLucifer]

I wasnt the one that proposed that silly lineup so dont blame me.

[Gaidal Cain]

But let's not forget how this started. You said: "No one in his right mind would do it." Now you answer, "yeah, I could do that (!) OR I could..." Thanks for agreeing with me, GC.

Hmm, since the message apparantly didn't get through the first time, I'll have to try again:

yes, casting Armageddon would be a possible way to go about the fight. It would mean that I would be guaranteed to loose at least half of my black dragons, and I must run the risk of the enemy being able to kill the other half before my hero's second action. The other way to do it would be to bring my whole army in, use some other DD spell that doesn't harm my own units like Armageddon, and not have to run the same risk. Hmm - guranteed loss of at least half of my most expensive stack and possible loss of combat, or a traditional combat where my spells still can be decisive. I wonder what I should do?

[ThunderTitan]

What about skills?

As i recall not all Warlocks start with Destructive Magic either.

@JJ:
Is that with tactics or what?

[Naskoni]

Oh, sure, Nasski. You will easily avoid each higher level of IM because you have absolutely no need for the associated abilities, not to mention the increased elemental chain bonus - just to make sure that IF you get Armageddon you can take some Black Dragons and cast Armageddon onto the opponent without your Dragons. If that is so, go ahead and play that way. Where's the problem?
@DL, seriously, you should know when you are flogging a dead horse and this horse already stinks.

So, Jelly - the easiest way is to take Sanitar - he comes with Empowered Spells and a nice bonus per level to their cost as well, not to mention Basic Destructive Magic. You can do just as well without the other secondary racials too. So what's your problem understanding thisl? In the general sense you will lose MORE by levelling IM than not and simply cheesing the other side to death? This way for every 1000 damage dealt to all of the enemy stacks you will suffer mere 200 to your BDs stack - with enough BDs you might survive long enough to cast it 3+ times with expert Sorcery, no problem, just keep those BDs on defense and fire away... if things get hot, retreat, rinse, repeat...

And the bonus to elemental damage you miss that way - wow, a whole 10% less than on expert IM - now THAT would be the decisive factor in the game, right? Especially for an otherwise such a weak faction, no?

As you can see you can spam Armageddon with minimal losses even with IM - so what's your whole whining all about? You think that IM will prevent people from doing it? What you lose from not getting higher IM with Sinitar is literally nothing compared to the Cheese, nothing! You won't even notice the additional cost of casting Empowered Armageddon with him either!

So if you think that IM is sufficient to stop the Cheese - really, as you can sustain only 20% of the Armageddon damage and for me that is more than enough to wipe them out, if not with one Cheese, then with a few. And if you think that IM is not sufficient to stop the Cheese then what is your problem with allowing Dungeon units to not be hardmfully affected by IM or allowed to be boosted with reduced efficency? And don't give me the "too complicated" line - if that's too complicated again then: Simply. Stop. Posting. In. This. Thread.

[Adicto]

Necromancy works,no matter what skills you have.Training works,no matter what skills you have.Gating works,no matter what skills you have.Avenger works,no matter what skills you have.Artificier works,no matter what skills you have.Irresistable magic has just its secondary effect if you have no destruction magic.So,its not just the only racial that can be harmful to you,it is also the only racial that works corectly only with one out of 12 skills.

Man you really must write jokes like this one only to see our reaction, like a top secret experiment about how much silly posts are needed to make the human brain implode or suffer an spontaneous combustion.

- Training power depends on how much money you have
- Avenger only works if you find right the creatures that you want
- Artificer usefulness depends on how much resources you have
- Necromancy effectiveness depends on the kind of creatures you get in your zone.
- Gating, Irresistible Magic & Elemental Chains depends on... well, nothing that you can´t control. Oh wait wait! those abilities need one thing to be useful: need a player who knows how to play.

[DaemianLucifer]

Man you really must write jokes like this one only to see our reaction, like a top secret experiment about how much silly posts are needed to make the human brain implode or suffer an spontaneous combustion.

- Training power depends on how much money you have
- Avenger only works if you find right the creatures that you want
- Artificer usefulness depends on how much resources you have
- Necromancy effectiveness depends on the kind of creatures you get in your zone.

And those damage your creatures,...how?

- Gating, Irresistible Magic & Elemental Chains depends on... well, nothing that you can´t control. Oh wait wait! those abilities need one thing to be useful: need a player who knows how to play.

Elemental chains depend on the number of cities you have,and you build the EC structures in.And since you mentioned that dumb thing about necromancy depending on what creatures there are on the map,Ill use the same argument and say:Irresistable magic depends on what creatures you fight.It wont help you at all if you fight druids,gremlins,demons,hunters,squires,griffins,............It only helps you when you are fighting golems,unicorns,blackies,gargoyles,emeralds,elementals and heroes with ressistance.

[Jolly Joker]

Let's get things into the right perspective here.
It's not me who's whining about something is wrong. Me (as some others) are just saying, the way it is, it is okay.
While before, people like Nassi, DL and GC claimed a lot of things about why it sucks, is illogical and whatnot, now suddenly they say, well, yes, as it is you can work your way around it, or, yes you can, but stand to lose some or risk something.
GC, do you really want the game to be that way that you get it delivered on a silver plate? What IS your point? I don't see it. You can do it both ways. If you have to sacrifice a few Dragons to win, who cares? For Nassi suddenly the Armageddon spell and the undisturbed casting of it is the only thing that matters - all just for the sake of saying BUT. What BUT? If you are so keen on armageddonning your way through the world, than do it, if it's so easy.
If you fight another Warlock you are able to blast his Black Dragon, no matter what, which is a pretty good thing. If you want to wreak havoc with a devastating spell you'll hurt yourself. Given the right situation, you can STILL do it, but will face losses. You CANNOT take one Blick Dragon, walk around the map and make everyone shiver in fear, but take 10 and you need a very carefully assembled army and a very good hero to beat that because those 10 Black Dragons are a force to be reckoned with even without Armageddon: you need a force to be able to stop that Warlock (who just MIGHT have other spells at his or her disposal) just with your might and possible buffs, but you CANNOT do it by just going in with a maximum of stacks.
Lastly if you forget all that stuff about running around with some lonely Dragons and conquer the universe and just start thinking about a normal battle where everyone has a decent army: IF you have Armageddon as a Warlock it STILL gives you a rather big tactical advantage. If it's an all-out fight you have 2 stacks with LOTS of Hit points in rms of Armageddon-power): The Hydras who will always amass tons of it and the Blackies who will have double effectiveness in terms of Armageddon. So your opponent is forced to decimate those two stacks while trying to keep a good-sized stack for himself at the same time to AVOID a final killing blow, that will cost the Warlock as well, but will simply win him the fight and the game.
Sure, it would be better for the Warlock if the Dragons were fully immune, but there are LOTS of things that would be better for everyone. If that was a valid point, well. How about this then: I want Instant Gating and Gating rates 100% because as a rule the gated creatures are not enough and not soon enough there to keep me from suffering losses most of the time I attack some hard stack with my Demons and Imps. Outrageous! I should be able to use my racial special with more efficiency!

Disclaimer: While playing Heroes V it is a distinct possibility that you have losses in the process of fighting. This is NO bug.

[DaemianLucifer]

While before, people like Nassi, DL and GC claimed a lot of things about why it sucks, is illogical and whatnot, now suddenly they say, well, yes, as it is you can work your way around it, or, yes you can, but stand to lose some or risk something.

I never changed my mind.My oppinion before was that IM should eaither effect all spells,or that IM shouldnt affect your troops.And I still advocate that.

GC, do you really want the game to be that way that you get it delivered on a silver plate? What IS your point? I don't see it. You can do it both ways. If you have to sacrifice a few Dragons to win, who cares? For Nassi suddenly the Armageddon spell and the undisturbed casting of it is the only thing that matters - all just for the sake of saying BUT. What BUT? If you are so keen on armageddonning your way through the world, than do it, if it's so easy.

It is you guys that always whine about armagedon would be too powerfull if your blacks were immune.It is powerfull now,but the cost of casting it is too big.If blacks were immune,the cost would be slightly lower,but it still would be quite big most of the time.If you think thats unfair,fine nerf the spell itself.No need to nerf the whole racial.

If you fight another Warlock you are able to blast his Black Dragon, no matter what, which is a pretty good thing. If you want to wreak havoc with a devastating spell you'll hurt yourself. Given the right situation, you can STILL do it, but will face losses. You CANNOT take one Blick Dragon, walk around the map and make everyone shiver in fear, but take 10 and you need a very carefully assembled army and a very good hero to beat that because those 10 Black Dragons are a force to be reckoned with even without Armageddon: you need a force to be able to stop that Warlock (who just MIGHT have other spells at his or her disposal) just with your might and possible buffs, but you CANNOT do it by just going in with a maximum of stacks.

You are saying it like the warlock is the only race that can amas 10 tier 7 creatures.Like the warlock is the only race that gains power while leveling.Guess what,sylvan with 10 emeralds(and the appropriate army to follow)is also a force that should be feared.A knight with 10 archangels(and the appropriate army and level)is also extremly powerfull.They all are.Warlocks have no advantage(and relly they shouldnt have)over any other race lead by a player of equal skill.And Im completelly fine with that.

Lastly if you forget all that stuff about running around with some lonely Dragons and conquer the universe and just start thinking about a normal battle where everyone has a decent army: IF you have Armageddon as a Warlock it STILL gives you a rather big tactical advantage. If it's an all-out fight you have 2 stacks with LOTS of Hit points in rms of Armageddon-power): The Hydras who will always amass tons of it and the Blackies who will have double effectiveness in terms of Armageddon. So your opponent is forced to decimate those two stacks while trying to keep a good-sized stack for himself at the same time to AVOID a final killing blow, that will cost the Warlock as well, but will simply win him the fight and the game.

Again with the armagedon.Can any of you give me a single reason(logical of course)for my proposal of changing IM that doesnt involve dracogedon?

Sure, it would be better for the Warlock if the Dragons were fully immune, but there are LOTS of things that would be better for everyone. If that was a valid point, well. How about this then: I want Instant Gating and Gating rates 100% because as a rule the gated creatures are not enough and not soon enough there to keep me from suffering losses most of the time I attack some hard stack with my Demons and Imps. Outrageous! I should be able to use my racial special with more efficiency!

Oh come on!Gating is strong enough.You can use it always.And I dont want a racial that is so perfect that it slaughters everyone.I want a racial that is on par with the rest.A racial that doesnt have disadvantages.A racial that doesnt require you to take a certain skill in order to work properly.

Disclaimer: While playing Heroes V it is a distinct possibility that you have losses in the process of fighting. This is NO bug.

No shit?Thanks for clearing that up.I thought it was.Oh,and actually,you can play loads of fights without losses.Thats no bug either,but sure is damn illogical.

[Gaidal Cain]

GC, do you really want the game to be that way that you get it delivered on a silver plate? What IS your point? I don't see it.

That Armageddon is a spell without any real purpose. There are other spells with almost as much raw damage output that doesn't hurt your units. I would much prefer it if IR was unbugged and the damage of Armageddon was reduced to compensate.

You can do it both ways. If you have to sacrifice a few Dragons to win, who cares?

I do, because there might be other battles after this one. Using a strategy which costs you at least four Black Dragons each battle isn't going to get you far.

You CANNOT take one Blick Dragon, walk around the map and make everyone shiver in fear, but take 10 and you need a very carefully assembled army and a very good hero to beat that because those 10 Black Dragons are a force to be reckoned with even without Armageddon: you need a force to be able to stop that Warlock (who just MIGHT have other spells at his or her disposal) just with your might and possible buffs, but you CANNOT do it by just going in with a maximum of stacks.

Except that it won't be a force of ten Black dragons for more than one battle. In the next one, it will be 8, then 6, then 4. Every lost Black Dragon is going to smart even more than it usually does. And don't forget that heroes can attack as well, which is at least another dead black dragon.

Lastly if you forget all that stuff about running around with some lonely Dragons and conquer the universe and just start thinking about a normal battle where everyone has a decent army: IF you have Armageddon as a Warlock it STILL gives you a rather big tactical advantage. If it's an all-out fight you have 2 stacks with LOTS of Hit points in rms of Armageddon-power): The Hydras who will always amass tons of it and the Blackies who will have double effectiveness in terms of Armageddon.

Frankly, there are for more terrifying spells that in the Warlock's arsenal to worry about than the possibility of it having Armageddon. Meteor Shower will do similar amountsof damage without touching his army, Fireball will reduce your defense, Lightning could delay your most important stack for long enough for him to take it out etc. Any other spell in the Warlocks spellbook would probably give him a lot larger advantage by way of allowing him to do a lot more stuff before that "last battle". Armageddon won't have.

[Jolly Joker]

That Armageddon is a spell without any real purpose. There are other spells with almost as much raw damage output that doesn't hurt your units. I would much prefer it if IR was unbugged and the damage of Armageddon was reduced to compensate.

Well, that's what it amounts to, isn't it? You, and some others, view IR as "bugged". Since everything with it is working as it should it can be no bug. Obviously, and for the umptieth time, as a Warlock you have the ability to hurt everything with every Destructive spell, no matter the immunities. That includes Black Dragons, especially Black Dragons on the opposite side of the battlefield. Unfortunately it includes the Black Dragons on your own side as well, especially against another Warlock, but if you are careless or see fit to do it for whatever the reason you might just hurt your own Black Dragons as well. As has been said, the double-square attack of the Dragons MIGHT just as well harm your own units, if you are careless enough and being forced to retaliate onto your own troops.
There is nothing "bugged" with that. There is nothing wrong with that.

[Sir_Toejam]

why is anyone even bothering to argue with JJ?

he has always thought the game was just perfect, even before the 1.3 patch.*

he won't ever contribute anything positive wrt potential things to tinker with.

so again, is there a point?

* btw, that's SARCASM, JJ.

[DaemianLucifer]

Well, that's what it amounts to, isn't it? You, and some others, view IR as "bugged". Since everything with it is working as it should it can be no bug.

This can be used everywhere."Hey,theres a bug in the campaign,and I cannot finish it","Sorry,its supposed to work like that,its not a bug."

Besides,I never said its bugged,I said its broken.Because it is the only racial that works just if you have destruction magic(thus the only racial that takes up two skill slots and not just one),and the only racial that hurts you.Most of the time more than it hurts others.And I still didnt see a single argument against that.All I saw was "Blah blah armagedon blah blah black dragons blah blah overpowered".

[Sir_Toejam]

Sorry,its supposed to work like that,its not a bug."

lol. "That's not a bug, it's a feature!"

[Jolly Joker]

why is anyone even bothering to argue with JJ?

he has always thought the game was just perfect, even before the 1.3 patch.*

he won't ever contribute anything positive wrt potential things to tinker with.

so again, is there a point?

* btw, that's SARCASM, JJ.

If you want to make a mod, please make the following:
change the cost of
Fort: 3000 Gold, 5 W, 5 O
Citadel: 5000 Gold 5 W, 5 O
Castle: 7000 Gold 10 W, 10 O.

Change the cost of the mage guilds to:

Level one: 5 W, 5 O, 1 of each of the precious ones, 1000 Gold
Level 2: 4 W, 4 O, 2 P each, 2000 Gold
3: 3 W, 3 O, 3P each, 3000 Gold
4: 2 w, 2 O, 4 P each, 4000 Gold
5: 1 W, 1 O, 5 P each, 5000 Gold.

Thank you very much.
Thank you.

[Mytical]

Expect this thread to be closed down soon also. Oh well, seems a little useless anyhow. People on one side just are not going to convince people from the other side no matter what. Nobody actually listens to what the otherside says so it is an endless circle. Personally I think there is a lot to be fixed, that is why I have stopped playing H5. I think the people responsible for the game should fix it. Simple way of getting that done. When the expansion comes out, don't buy it. Send letters/emails/ect explaining why you didn't. Money talks. If they are interested in your dollars, they will fix it, if not maybe they will sell the rights to somebody who will.

[Sir_Toejam]

that's good, JJ!

interesting ideas there.

you should post that in the modmaking guild section, so other modders can catch it if they check there.