Irresistible magic

[Jolly Joker]

Oh, and I'm in full agreement with DL's last post. Even if IM makes it impossible for Warlocks to use Dracageddon, there's really nothing stopping a Necromancer from taking over a dungeon and using it. Armageddon is the problem, not warlocks.

Pardon? Lucky spells? Empowered Spells? Expert Destructive Magic? For a Necromancer? Yeah, I see lots of them.
Oh, and something else: if a Necro can take over ANY town you have a problem anyway with that Necro. And it doesn't have to be a Dungeon town as well for Armageddon; it could be every town except Haven and another Necro town.

[ThunderTitan]

Pardon? Lucky spells? Empowered Spells? Expert Destructive Magic? For a Necromancer? Yeah, I see lots of them.

Yeah, might actualy take more then one cast to kill the other guy. He might not be as powerfull, but it doesn't eliminate the problem. Then again as it stand now Armageddon is kinda useless for anything but being a sore loser.

And Necro doesn't need to take another castle, it's not like the dungeon tavern doesn't allow you to hire necros.

[DaemianLucifer]

If your level 15 warlock really gets 15 power hell have maybe 3 or 4 knowledge.So youll shoot one empowered armagedon in a battle.Wow,what a feat!Lucky spells happen only half the time if you have luck of 5,so you cannot count that as a sure thing.Destruction magic is available to all,so you cannot count that as something tied to warlocks as well.So,even if you do shoot a lucky empowered armagedon,youll spend twice the mana for it and thus youll do the same damage any other hero with the same spell power would do in two rounds,but for the same mana cost.So lucky empowered spells just enabls you to cast your spells some 75% faster then others,nothing more.

[Jolly Joker]

But that's exactly the problem isn't it? If your Warlock has 15 spell power (he may have Enlightenment, he may have found an artifact, he may have visited locations), comes with 3 magically immune Black Dragons and can kill the opposing troops with two castings without the opponent being able to do much against it) then, that's the problem. If you want to play Dungeon with a Necro as main hero to get a main hero with magically immune Dragons in the end, said Necro will do 720 Armageddon damage with the Feather cape which is still not bad - however this is a strategy not without problems getting to a decent army, you will produce Skeleton Archers, but you will have problems in the beginning and in the midgame with the moral of your army that you need to get to the endgame. Worst of all, the Mage Guild may not even contain the Armageddon spell, then what?

[ThunderTitan]

you will produce Skeleton Archers

Which can easily be taken out of battle in the Tactics faze. And you don't really need him to be your primary hero either. Even if it's not as succesful as with a Warlock, it's still a cheap tactic.

[Naskoni]

I think it is a lot more interesting (and realistic) if a high level Mage with the necessary proficiency in Destruction Magic captures a Dungeon town and borrows a few BDs with which he then proceeds on to a killing spree. What's to stop the cheese there?

And again - Warlocks hurts their Dragons, fine, why not allow them to boost them as well? Isn't their magic supposed to be irresistible? Or do Warlocks hate their own Dragons too much as to be willing to boost/heal them irrespectively, hmmm?

[DaemianLucifer]

Worst of all, the Mage Guild may not even contain the Armageddon spell, then what?

You know,I said the same thing about warlock focusing on that strategy.Its not like armagedon is a must for them.

[Jolly Joker]

Isn't this running in circles now?
A secondary hero (for a normal armageddon tactic like it was in earlier games) isn't effective. First thing is, the hero must get Expert Destructive magic; the hero van only be a Necromancer or Wizard. And having a spell power 6 Necromancer will accomplish nothing: 210 normal Armageddon power MINUS what the opposition can field in terms of Resistance. It will hardly win a game and it will hardly be decisive.
If another hero captures a Dungeon town - a fully developed Dungeon town I might add - and if that hero has enough Spell Power, like a Necromancer that hero may for the heck of it take all Black Dragons and run around as Armageddon hero. But if he crushed a Dungeon player the game will probably be over anyway at that point - with or without Armageddon.
The only problem I really see is, IF the Black Dragons are immune, the spell practically guarantees victory. You have a lot of options even with the irresistable effect.
For the reason why Black Dragons get affected by Destructive magic only - beats me, to tell the truth. Short of taking Armageddon out completely or remodeling the whole Dungeon I don't see a viable alternative. One thing is clear - you cannot let BDs unharmed and keep everything as it is, because then you can forget the game. Lots of people are already complaining about Dungeon being overpowered anyway with their massive casting potential.

[Naskoni]

And I thought that nothing will ever take Necropolis from the number 1 overpowered position Or maybe people are complaining that Dungeon is the second most overpowered faction now?

I say leave it as it is at the moment + allow Warlock to cast whatever they feel like on immune or resistant units with the applicable efficiency factor (ressurect only 75% (according to faction special level and so on) HP when casting Resurrect on BDs - you get the idea.

[DaemianLucifer]

Thats what Im saying the whole time:Nerf the spell,not the whole faction.Remove the armagedon,or make it do physical damage,or do less damage.Or,if not,make irresistable magic affect all spells,not just DD ones.

[Jolly Joker]

I'd see grave problems:
With Magical Immunity?
With Arcane Armor?
Raise Dead/Resurrect?

[DaemianLucifer]

Umm...Why?I see no problems with those.At least,no problems that arent present with other races.

[Naskoni]

I'd see grave problems:
With Magical Immunity?
With Arcane Armor?
Raise Dead/Resurrect?

Well, isn't that the whole point of a racial called Irresistible Magic? Additionally we all know that you don't get 100% efficiency when dealing with immune (100%) resistant units, i.e. BDs.

I'm yet to see a Warlock with expert Light Magic too, but that's me.

As for Raise Dead - try my mod, which makes it lv3 Summoning Magic and lowers its efficiency a lot if you don't have that proficiency to begin with (you can still learn it with the proper Sorcery secondary) and illustrate me how is it going to be such a huge problem if you're not Summoning Magic expert?

If you still think that these things are a problem then it is very safe to assume that this particular racial is just half-baked, not so well designed feature, isn't it?

[Jolly Joker]

I mean problem, if you can cast them onto the Dragons.

[Naskoni]

I mean problem, if you can cast them onto the Dragons.

That's precisely what I meant as well. Just note that you should still get only the efficiency determined by the same special that allows you to cast those things on the Dragons

[Jolly Joker]

So what happens when you cast Magical Immunity onto the Dragons?

[DaemianLucifer]

Why is that a problem?You can cast it on all other creatures(angels,titans,etc).So why should dragons be the only creature that can be damaged by magic,but not buffed by it?A little unfair towards the blackies.

So what happens when you cast Magical Immunity onto the Dragons?

You shouldnt be able to cast it because they already are immune.But maybe some other interesting effect should come to life(like universe colapsing )

[Meandor]

Why is that a problem?You can cast it on all other creatures(angels,titans,etc).So why should dragons be the only creature that can be damaged by magic,but not buffed by it?A little unfair towards the blackies.

They can be damaged only by warlocks. In normal situation warlock and black dragons will be on the same side so they`ll be damaged only with mass spells when warlock wants it.
Other heroes won`t be aviable to harm dragons with magic while you`ll be bufing them and raising Black dragon can`t be buffed for a reason.

[DaemianLucifer]

They can be damaged only by warlocks. In normal situation warlock and black dragons will be on the same side so they`ll be damaged only with mass spells when warlock wants it.
Other heroes won`t be aviable to harm dragons with magic while you`ll be bufing them and raising Black dragon can`t be buffed for a reason.

Yet they can be hurt for a reason?

[Naskoni]

Why is that a problem?You can cast it on all other creatures(angels,titans,etc).So why should dragons be the only creature that can be damaged by magic,but not buffed by it?A little unfair towards the blackies.

They can be damaged only by warlocks. In normal situation warlock and black dragons will be on the same side so they`ll be damaged only with mass spells when warlock wants it.
Other heroes won`t be aviable to harm dragons with magic while you`ll be bufing them and raising Black dragon can`t be buffed for a reason.

...because magic is the only way to kill BDs, right? Right? And Harm Touch would still screw any positive buffs too Plus the racial will decrease the efficiency of the buffs, no?

And now comes the truly philosophical question - what happens if you cast Magical Immunity on a natively Immune creature? They cannot possibly get more Immune than Immune and the enemy would not be able to cast anything on them either way or in the case of an enemy Warlock he would be able to cast on them anyway so I'd guess the only thing that will happen is you losing some mana and basically wasting a turn with your hero... or the Universe will collapse...