Would potions be a good adition to the game ?

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 18 Oct 2006, 14:38

Then it's a strange point. If you want more map objects, go ahead; I'm with you. But if you want more map objects why advertising for potions? I mean, what kind of point is that? "I want more artifacts, therefore I demand potions?" "I want more spells therefore I demand potions?" I want more heroes therefore I demand potions?"
"I want another game, so let's start with potions?"
I see sense in demanding any of the above EXCEPT potions, actually.

vhilhu · Unread postby **vhilhu** » 18 Oct 2006, 15:01

i voted no and brought NO to the leading position from a tie. Praise me.

in h4 they were annoying. there were only 2 important potions: endurance(semi-important) and immortaliy(GAME-BREAKER). all the useless rest just stared at me from the inv screen.

Bonzer · Unread postby **Bonzer** » 18 Oct 2006, 15:39

I will probably decide while writing this. There seem such good arguments both ways.

1) Would it not affect the current balance? Devaluing the Academy creature artefacts? These are available as a way to "strengthen" those creatures. Giving potions to heroes would surely dilute this.

2) Any Might vs Magic combat has pros and cons for both sides, again extra magic would lean toward unbalancing.

3) I agree with the posters regarding cluttering up the inventory. I already have little or no use for the wands I collect.

4) I very rarely found a use for H3 scrolls, unless they were carefully placed ones, to cover spells edited out of guilds.

5) I hope they wouldn't clutter up random maps like the H3 scrolls used to.

Doesn't look good, does it. However...

4) They would be another way to give out magic bonuses as wands etc already are, just another way of doing it. So it is up to the mapmaker to place them accordingly for balance.

5) Being as there would be some programming involved, why not complete it in a "polished, proffessional way"....Tabs on inventory (Nice one DL), and PLEASE.....A way to sell them?!

6) Even more proffessional, trying to be creative here, what if (are you listening Honda?) what if there was a new building, "Pharmacology" or something, where you could buy and sell potions, like cheap artefacts? Perhaps you would need some resources as well as cash for the more powerful ones.

Umm, ok, convinced myself here. Voted yes....on condition it doesn't unbalance the game and the "presentation" (inventory tabs & pharmacology is included).

(Just chucked in as a "bottled wand / scroll I would vote no).

Lady Farquad · Unread postby **Lady Farquad** » 18 Oct 2006, 16:22

I would prefer some nice artifact to provide this potion "effect" (i. e. healing). I have never associated HOMM with potion making, and I guess the game makers would have to change the very essence of the game in order to include a decent potion system.
Nah, no potions

Cyrox · Unread postby **Cyrox** » 18 Oct 2006, 16:57

Potions would be cool. I would think them as items you could use on the adventure map. Example:

Potion of mana- restores hero's mana completely (or some)

Potion of speed- increases hero's movement points for a day/a week

Potion of dexterity- increases hero's initiative for the next battle

atma6 · Unread postby **atma6** » 18 Oct 2006, 17:32

I find that potions could easily be unbalancing. Say there is a really useful potion that allows one of the players to clear a gold mine far earlier than he should be able to. Then say another player doesn't get this same potion. It automatically gives a huge advantage.

Why implement a new feature when they can just improve upon old ones. True a very good mapmaker can tell what potions would and would not be unbalancing and they could make a purely balanced map. For the good to average mapmakers mistakes would be made giving an advantage to one side.

And who would this help the most? Haven. Haven is THE might faction in the game and they especially in the early game will run out of mana often. Therefore potions that mimic spells will be very useful for them.

Now what about the Academy? The town that always gets shafted. Well now the Academy would have lots of potions for spells it can cast better with little to no worry about the mana cost. This faction would really suffer because mapmakers would then place potions around the map rather than place more random resources, which the Academy depends on. These potions would be next to useless for them, but it would give other factions an inherent advantage.

Basicly you would be boosting the already powerful might orientate factions and hurting the magic ones. True potions could be added that would improve defence or attack for one battle, but that change would be far less apparent than giving a might faction the use of a powerful spell them might (no pun intended) never see.

Of course considering that Nival seems to hate the Academy and wants them to be unusable in competitive play, maybe potions are a good idea.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 18 Oct 2006, 17:43

Jolly Joker wrote:Then it's a strange point. If you want more map objects, go ahead; I'm with you. But if you want more map objects why advertising for potions? I mean, what kind of point is that? "I want more artifacts, therefore I demand potions?" "I want more spells therefore I demand potions?" I want more heroes therefore I demand potions?"
"I want another game, so let's start with potions?"
I see sense in demanding any of the above EXCEPT potions, actually.

I never said that,those are just my priorities:Objects>Artifacts>Spells>Potions.Getting just the least wanted one is a good start anyway.And this is actually the type of comment I was reffering to earlier:

vhilhu wrote:i voted no and brought NO to the leading position from a tie. Praise me.

in h4 they were annoying. there were only 2 important potions: endurance(semi-important) and immortaliy(GAME-BREAKER). all the useless rest just stared at me from the inv screen.

It was a poor implementation.It has nothing to do with the idea of potions as a whole.

Caradoc · Unread postby **Caradoc** » 18 Oct 2006, 19:05

Other than the infamous PofI, I can't recall any time playing Heroes III or IV when a potion played any significant part in the game. In Heroes V I have hardly used wands or scrolls. Nor have I often summoned elementals. For me, potions are just not important.

What I would like to see is lots more artifacts, including rare ones that have nifty special powers. It would be great to be able to download an 'artifact pack' that has a bunch of new ones. Coming across a new toy is a lot of fun.

Kilop · Unread postby **Kilop** » 18 Oct 2006, 19:53

I can't recall any time playing Heroes III when a potion played any significant part in the game

that is strange ... neither do I!!!

And btw to all that are saying potions are overpowered, just think what you would have say if people told you about an ability to bring reinforcement during the battle equal to 1/2 of the numbers units you have...
Potions would be overpowered, or not depending on the way they would be implemented. Mana potion would not be soo fiar but think pf a potion that resurect 5 creatures, and doesn t take any init... that is just adding something to the gameply ( and obvously this would be a strong item, be much less that the non penalty bow for example ... )
Man this forum is always so conservativ !

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 18 Oct 2006, 20:34

Wow,I never thought you and I would share a same view

okrane · Unread postby **okrane** » 18 Oct 2006, 21:38

First of all... I believe a potion should be smth to drink... or maybe throw away at someone... so I really don't see how drinking a potion would revive my stack of archangels... I mean, hell, what do they put in those things? My bet is vodka...it revives the dead

I'd love to get a "potion of getting rich" in the real life... but hey... I think I'm asking a bit too much.

Now seriously, there could be some interesting consumables, mana recharging in battle for example, but I think it would somehow ruin some of the balance, gameplay and strategies. Let's say a potion of mana would cost 1000 gold for example and it would restore 25 MP(like in H4). Now a low knowledge hero like a necro would abuse this to hell. Spend 4000 gold get 100 extra mana... What numbers should there be to balance this?

In stead of complicating things by adding potions to, let's say, strengthen a bit might heroes, we could try and think of something else... I'm not suggesting anything yet, but I think potions were good in Heroes 4, when you would have many heroes on a battlefield, each one with his characteristics and spending a turn for using a potion was not that much. I have the impression that big battles last longer on H4 than on H3 and 5...

I like the Wand/Spell Scroll Idea... even if I never used them... Maybe make some more wands with other abilities. For example: Wand of recharge mana: 3 charges restores 25 mana. That way this would be an artifact like all the rest and it would require to have it equiped in order to use it. So I guess in stead of potions wands are more likely the way to go.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 18 Oct 2006, 21:52

okrane wrote:First of all... I believe a potion should be smth to drink... or maybe throw away at someone... so I really don't see how drinking a potion would revive my stack of archangels... I mean, hell, what do they put in those things? My bet is vodka...it revives the dead

Ahem.

okrane wrote: Now seriously, there could be some interesting consumables, mana recharging in battle for example, but I think it would somehow ruin some of the balance, gameplay and strategies. Let's say a potion of mana would cost 1000 gold for example and it would restore 25 MP(like in H4). Now a low knowledge hero like a necro would abuse this to hell. Spend 4000 gold get 100 extra mana... What numbers should there be to balance this?

It could be balanced the same way as in disciples,by making you have to equip a potion before the battle if you plan on using it.BUt then we should have very powerfull potions to compensate.

Kilop · Unread postby **Kilop** » 18 Oct 2006, 22:01

it would restore 25 MP(like in H4). Now a low knowledge hero like a necro would abuse this to hell.

... Maybe make some more wands with other abilities. For example: Wand of recharge mana: 3 charges restores 25 mana.

ahem...

mana poions would be a little abused, but all depend on the kevek of the potion. and of course, I don t think it is a good idea, to be able to buy potions at town ( or just one pot / battle ) but some random buff found on the adventure map would bring some good diversity !!!
Oh, forgot, these forums are only to bash/defend Nival, new ideas are prohibited, I hope I don t get moderated

okrane · Unread postby **okrane** » 18 Oct 2006, 22:06

Kilop wrote:
it would restore 25 MP(like in H4). Now a low knowledge hero like a necro would abuse this to hell.

... Maybe make some more wands with other abilities. For example: Wand of recharge mana: 3 charges restores 25 mana.
ahem...

You haven't read all my post... a wand wouldn't be an abuse because it would be like an artifact. think of it this way... you get a wand that restores your mana but you have to unequip the Dragon's Flame Tongue... it's a trade. And since it is a wand...it would be an artifact like any other... It can be a relic for that matter.....
Now potions... well... you can have as many as those as you like...

W/O buying?? well I don't know... it seems kind of pointless to get one time consumables just from the map. I know I would never use them just in case I could need them later... IMO consumables should be purchasable...

If not... why not incourage creating more adv map sites that give bonuses in battle. Like a place if you visit your hero gets double damage for the next battle... or I don't know.

I agree in a way... potions could be interesting... but as randomly found one time consumables... they're not so exciting. I mean... you can't have any kind of strategy based on that... it's just a matter of luck... or an element of surprise if you'd like... since it would be a "nice" suprise that after being blown to bits by a warlock, when you finally believe he has no more mana left, boom.... he uses a potion and let the meteor showering continue....

okrane wrote:
First of all... I believe a potion should be smth to drink... or maybe throw away at someone... so I really don't see how drinking a potion would revive my stack of archangels... I mean, hell, what do they put in those things? My bet is vodka...it revives the dead smile_teeth

Ahem.

Well... no... In heroes 4 there were some weird potions. How on earth could throwing a potion at someone can influence they moral, or luck? Really... it would be like: "Look, that guy throwed a potion at me, and now I've got this green purplish thing all over

Now I won't look good when the big bad dragon comes to eat me... I'm so sad I'm gonna cry

"
Don't get me wrong... the majority of potions were ok... even Potion of Cold I understand... you would pour the think on your sword and all... but really... let's keep potions to what potions can do... How would a potion of Summon Pheonix look like... "Well... I got this pheonix stuffed here in my little bottle... I guess I'll throw it away to the enemy... let him deal with it"

Kilop · Unread postby **Kilop** » 19 Oct 2006, 03:48

And since it is a wand...it would be an artifact like any other... It can be a relic for that matter.....

I don t see your point at all here. You could equip potions as artefects or give them a new artefact emplacement ...

t seems kind of pointless to get one time consumables just from the map. I know I would never use them just in case I could need them later...

In that last batle , when hose 5 archangels could do all the trick , that makes the diference!

it's just a matter of luck... or an element of surprise if you'd like

Just like any of the other artefacts !!

How would a potion of Summon Pheonix look like... "Well... I got this pheonix stuffed here in my little bottle

I didn t say that potion of phoenix would be a good idea ( thought potion of armageddon would be awesome !!! ) just some mana pot, resurection pot, freezing pot, which could make a little diference in the end battle , just enought to justify using them..
Now if you BALANCE their use how could they be IMBALANCED ?
And for what absurd reason, adding something new and VERY adjustable would lead to a lack of strategy ?

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 19 Oct 2006, 05:26

Okay, just to make sure I understand that right.
You are willing to spend some weeks or even months in game time with strategy and planning of your hero, building things like mage guilds, developing skills, play for abilities - just to have it all nullified in the end by... a potion? No, I'm not able to get Resurrection in my guild and neither will I get Light Magic easy as a Demon Lord, but hey, I found that potion - even better, I found two.
On the other hand, if you will have that potion only once in 100 games, then why have it in at all?
Okay, I take it, you just would like to have an ace in the sleeve sometimes in a battle, something like a surprise. There are some abilities there, but that's not a REAL surprise, right?
So how about a simple SECOND special instead of only one; it would be a special picked randomly out of a possible, umm, let's say 20, 24, something like that, for each hero, if and when they reach a certain level, let's say 10 (you'd even have a chance to have one of those specials for each 10 levels or so). That special could be used once PER GAME - voila, there's your ace in the hole.
However, and this is a big however:
RULE: that ace in the hole should not be decisive. For example, let's say one of the specials would be one double turn, if you want to or a sure lucky hit if you decide to. So the ace should be more like a deuce, a +5 on one attack, a turn using only 75% of initiative instead of 100 and so on. because you wouldn't want to decide a battle with that.
Was it worth the while then? No. There are enough "surprises" already in the game. Teleporter-Assaulting a Hydra stack is more than enough surprise already. Frenzied and werewolfclawed Skeleton Archers as well. Not to mention combined favored enemy/Luck blitzes of Emerald Dragons, Battle Dive attacks, stacks not being killled due to Last Men Standing and so on.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 19 Oct 2006, 10:16

Jolly Joker wrote:Okay, just to make sure I understand that right.
You are willing to spend some weeks or even months in game time with strategy and planning of your hero, building things like mage guilds, developing skills, play for abilities - just to have it all nullified in the end by... a potion? No, I'm not able to get Resurrection in my guild and neither will I get Light Magic easy as a Demon Lord, but hey, I found that potion - even better, I found two.
On the other hand, if you will have that potion only once in 100 games, then why have it in at all?

You skip from one end to the other,yet you neglect the middle.Whats the worth of a grail if you get it once in every 100 games,anyway?Not that Im saying potions should be as powerfull as grails,far from it.But just as artifacts,potions of mana and healing should be common,but limmited,lets say 5 per battle,or better yet,you can equip 2 in your hands and use them at half initiative,but the rest cost double initiative(rumaging through a backpack can be tedious).There can be a potion of fireball.of forgetfulness,of acid(destroys a dead stack so it cannot be raised/resurrected),etc.Sure,they wouldnt be as powrfull as your spells,but you could use them at half initiative(if equiped that is).Honestly,what do you see wrong about that?It adds a bit of a strategy,yet it can be easilly balanced not to overpower anyone.

okrane wrote: Well... no... In heroes 4 there were some weird potions. How on earth could throwing a potion at someone can influence they moral, or luck? Really... it would be like: "Look, that guy throwed a potion at me, and now I've got this green purplish thing all over Now I won't look good when the big bad dragon comes to eat me... I'm so sad I'm gonna cry "
Don't get me wrong... the majority of potions were ok... even Potion of Cold I understand... you would pour the think on your sword and all... but really... let's keep potions to what potions can do... How would a potion of Summon Pheonix look like... "Well... I got this pheonix stuffed here in my little bottle... I guess I'll throw it away to the enemy... let him deal with it"

The potion that lowers morale is nothing weirder than the spell that does the same thing.It can be a mix of rare chemicals that makes you easilly frightened of the slightest noise.And the genie in a bottle concept is very common.But I wouldnt like to see a phoenix in a bottle though.But thats just a matter of choosing which effects a potion can have and which a potion cannot have.

Kilop · Unread postby **Kilop** » 19 Oct 2006, 12:07

DL, I believe I have to agrea with you here. You make a point and that was my idea of a HV potion, usefull but balanced, enough to take the time to get it on the adventure map.

Was it worth the while then? No. There are enough "surprises" already in the game.

Well, if the dev wanted to make worthwile, it would be ! And no, there is not enought surprises in this game, I really really like new objects on the adventure maps.
compare potion to artefacts that could be utilised only once, giving an edge, not an overpowered one thought.

Mytical · Unread postby **Mytical** » 19 Oct 2006, 12:21

Ok now, here is the issue I see with this..this would be a very low priority thing for me. Ok sure if we could get nothing else, and get potions at least we would have gotten something. With heroes out of the battle for the most part..I don't see much benifit from them. First off they would mostly help might, and might already has a very amazing advantage over magic..so for me ...not such a good thing. Now yes you could argue that mages could invoke more potent spells with it (potion of fire - increases damage of all spells with an element of fire's damage). Or regain mana..but still the benifit for those that have less access to magic would far outweigh that. I think there are much more interesting things worth pursuing...new more interesting artifacts..new spells...new map objects that even do some interesting things. Heck even a series of buildings that would have these potion like effects would be better.

Jolly Joker · Unread postby **Jolly Joker** » 19 Oct 2006, 12:43

Ah, so now we are not talking about simple "potions" anymore, we are talking about "one-time artifacts", spell-scrolls that will self-destroy after one use and "part-time" abilities as something of a supplement for normal artifacts.
For me this would be something of a broadening of the "Wand"-approach - no need to create potions or something, simply add more Wands.
Since everyone wants more spells, artifacts and probably abilities as well, this would or should be handled then under those.
Which makes the "no" to potions as a new element even more resounding, doesn't it? I'm pointing to Mytical's post above mine and join her.

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Would potions be a good adition to the game ?

Would potions be a good adition to the game ?

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