I do not give up with academy!

[Adicto]

for heavens sake Liches are SHOOTERS and are much more durable

But djinns are cheaper and you can get +2 djinns per week. What happens? when a undead creature is numerous & cheap but weak it is ok, but if those creatures are djinns the whinning begins... What can I say? Now academy players know what the necromancers feel about almost the whole undead army.

[Sir_Toejam]

when a undead creature is numerous & cheap but weak it is ok, but if those creatures are djinns the whinning begins...

??

you seem to have the analogy reversed.

besides which, it might be a legit comparison if both were shooters, but the idea here is that the lich is a shooter AND it's still tougher than a djinn.

it doesn't matter that you get 2 more djinn a week, when you'll lose em all quickly enough without resurrection if you use them in actual combat.

wheras the lich is not only tougher to begin with, but being able to do damage at range, makes them much less likely to be lost.

your comparison is not valid.

[Kilop]

I trade genies for liches anytime... and without their death cloud... genies are soo underpowered!
fast assault unit, one shooting enemy staks... by one shooting I mean, they shoot once, then thye die, this time really one shooted.

[Arqane]

Yeah, I was never fond of the genies in H5. You can still use them decently if you've got them, but their main idea was mostly lost. In other Heroes games, a random spell was less likely to be the same as you could normally cast with your hero. Also, you didn't have an even better (mass) version that the hero could usually cast.

So the Haste spell is nice, but it's really quite easy to get Mass Haste very early in the game if you want. Now, it would be rather interesting if you added random Destructive spells to the Master Genie's random spell list. Would be rather funny when an Armageddon popped out by accident . Overpowered, sure, if you're lucky. Funny as anything, and I think it would get alot of people playing Academy just for the random silly chance.

[Adicto]

when a undead creature is numerous & cheap but weak it is ok, but if those creatures are djinns the whinning begins...

??

you seem to have the analogy reversed.

besides which, it might be a legit comparison if both were shooters, but the idea here is that the lich is a shooter AND it's still tougher than a djinn.

it doesn't matter that you get 2 more djinn a week, when you'll lose em all quickly enough without resurrection if you use them in actual combat.

wheras the lich is not only tougher to begin with, but being able to do damage at range, makes them much less likely to be lost.

your comparison is not valid.

WTF?! my comparison is not valid? ... why, because lichs are a shooters and djinns melee creatures? shooter is just an ability, like flyer or vorpal sword. I can compare any creature. Look at the pit lord for example... he is a powerful caster but as deadly in close combat as wraiths, paladins, rakshassas...

Djinns are weak but numerous & cheap/lichs are powerful but expensive, just like zombies/blood furys, for example. All the factions have weak and strong creatures, accept it.

Following your stupid argument: Titans are shooters and tougher than spectral dragons... being able to do damage at range makes them much less likely to be lost. They even have no-melee penalty and can deal 3 times more damage than my poor dragons!

The balance is between factions, not between creatures, man.

[Sir_Toejam]

WTF?! my comparison is not valid?

yes, and i explained very well why it wasn't.

djinns cheap?

not really.

Following your stupid argument: Titans are shooters and tougher than spectral dragons... being able to do damage at range makes them much less likely to be lost. They even have no-melee penalty and can deal 3 times more damage than my poor dragons!

LOL, while you call it "stupid" it's absolutely correct, and you then proceed to completely support my point.

getting 3 spectral dragons per week is not equivalent to getting two titans.

but then we are talking level 7 creatures, not level 5, where the situation is completely reversed for the two factions.

getting 5 djinn per week doesn't make up for their weakness.

the original point was that djinn are a very weak level 5 unit, and getting more of them (at higher cost) doesn't match other level 5 units, even still.

amazing how backwards you are thinking this through.

The balance is between factions, not between creatures, man.

and we were talking about faction strength early on, through say, oh, level 5...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

WTF?! my comparison is not valid? ... why, because lichs are a shooters and djinns melee creatures? shooter is just an ability, like flyer or vorpal sword. I can compare any creature. Look at the pit lord for example... he is a powerful caster but as deadly in close combat as wraiths, paladins, rakshassas...

Djinns are weak but numerous & cheap/lichs are powerful but expensive, just like zombies/blood furys, for example. All the factions have weak and strong creatures, accept it.

Following your stupid argument: Titans are shooters and tougher than spectral dragons... being able to do damage at range makes them much less likely to be lost. They even have no-melee penalty and can deal 3 times more damage than my poor dragons!

The balance is between factions, not between creatures, man.

The academy has mostly weak creatures based on the premise that they would boost their creatures with creature artifacts. Unfortunately creature artifacts are unobtainable on the majority of maps.

On the other hand, necromancers get a free level 2 spell (raise dead) that is great for them. They get free creatures and a free level 1 upgrade (skele archers.) They have a self healing/resurrecting unit (vampires) and can even raise creatures after a battle is over(eternal servatitude.)

Necropolis and Haven are the two most powerful factions in the game. Necromancy it way way way overpowered.

Djinns are crap. They die waaaaaay too easy for a level 5 creature. They suck as melee creature and they suck as casters. They don't have the toughness to melee. If they melee they will certainly all be dead at the end of the battle and most of them will be dead from shooters if they don't melee. Their spells are totally undependable. You may be facing walkers and they cast missile deflection. Geee, thanks. They need to be totally redesigned to have any real value at all to the academy.

GOW

[Jolly Joker]

Has become a whining thread once again.
To go back to some earlier issue: Consume Artifact. It was said, that this ability is something of a waste because the situation where you would want to trade an artifact against mana would arise too seldom as in once in a lifetime or so.
After having a look into the last minute changes that will be introduced with the addon/patch-for-main-game-to-bring-it-up-to-addon-standard, it looks like Consume Artifact will indeed see a change, one that looks rather decent at that. Since I'm not allowed to spill the specifics, I can't go into detail here, sorry. But I think the change will have an impact on the actual play.

[asandir]

cool, I hope it grants a bonus to spell power and triple the resources to create the artifact refunded .... now that might help academy ....

and yes, I am being slightly antagonistic, I just can't help myself

[Elvin]

Hopefully it will have to do with artificer resource costs It's good that rebalancing of weaker abilities still continues,thanks for the info!

[letsrock]

I really can't agree with the suggestion that Academy is weak.
I have been playing online for a while and now Academy is one of my favourite races.

Here is why it is strong, IMHO:

Setting: Hard (but it should apply for Heroic as well)

Week 1-2: (early game)

- Creeping: Havez (+Tent) with Master Gremlins and Golems are very good for creeping early games. With them you can beat nearly any creep (except maybe Dragons and Pit Lord/Archmage) with little/no loss (Tent is actually only needed for attacking rangers/spell casters). Hence you can get more resources to build things.

- Rushing/anti-rushing: Havez and this combo can rush weak opponents, and defeat any rush. You may need to get mini-artifact (boost HP/reduce spell damage) for the Gremlins if necessary (for example, vs Deleb or Sinistar). Now you may say that you may not have enough resources to build artifact. However, you should have, because you don't need to build Library, high level Mage Guilds, level 2-5-6 dwellings in week 2. Even the level 4 dwellings can wait to get resources to build artifact if you estimate that the coming rusher is strong.

Week 3-4: (middle game)

- In week 3-4, your main hero can get Expert Summoning and Expert Light Magic and with a level 5 Mage Guild, your hero is very strong.

- Army still focus on Master Gremlins and Golems. Get the mini-artifact for them. You should have Mages as well. And get level 2, 5, 6 as well if you have the resources. Later on army focus on MG, Golems, Mages and Rashaksa. Genies are used to support the army.

Week 5+: (Late game) (if the game is still not finished yet) won't be a problem as you have strong early and middle game.

***On a side note, if you guys do not agree on the strength of Academy, why don't you play online vs one another to see it? Better than only discussing on the forum as it is very hard to agree this way.

[Kilop]

yeah, in theory this sounds good.
But you forget two things :
first this strategy means that you can play academy only with Razzak, and that is NOT normal.
second, there must be a huge AI/neutrals diference between hard an deroic, because neutral stacks that keep rare ressources are impossible to do without a loss... Even a lots of war dancer will make a clear cut in your gremlins ( and wihotu them no more res )

Ah, and lastly, remember how much golems get init early on ? yeah that s right 7 !
That means this is weak, they play once at slow speed against blood furies for example, it is no match.
and you wanted to give grem MR against dungeon ???
I mean .... you are week 3 or 4 maybe lvl 10 or so , so a maximum aof 10 knowledge, and you wiss to grant grem, like 10 % MR??? That will certainly help against the INNATE -15% from dungeon !

Hopefully it will have to do with artificer resource costs

I am not sure since at the end of the game you should be able to make the neclace to reduce artefact cost. When you need it anymore...

Has become a whining thread once again.

hehe JJ, that is not whinning, jusgt searching for the best solution.
Everybody in mp refer to forget academy, there is a reason to that... SO I d like to bring them on level, maybe we could find something usefull and give devs this idea, if they make nothing ... well then it will be time to argue about an " official " mod.

So ideas so far :
Tweaking Genies
reducing building costs ( i don t agrea )
give heroes diferent stats
grant wizard more ways to cast spells ( combined or something )
buffcreatures owerall
invent gremlinomancy, and from each stact that you kill, a percentage of it will rise as gremlins to join your troops.

[letsrock]

> yeah, in theory this sounds good.

Not in theory. This is what I have been playing online.

> first this strategy means that you can play academy only with Razzak, and that is NOT normal.

Havez you meant? Not really, with Havez and tent you will have easier time with shooters/casters. But vs others, MGremlins + golem works well with any hero. Note that for any race, some specific hero makes things easier.

> second, there must be a huge AI/neutrals diference between hard an deroic

there is a difference, but not much. However, as I said, this apply better to Hard.

> Ah, and lastly, remember how much golems get init early on ? yeah that s right 7 !

Golems is the defender, MG is the attacker. So Golems's init is not important.

> And you wanted to give grem MR against dungeon ???
I mean .... you are week 3 or 4 maybe lvl 10 or so , so a maximum aof 10 knowledge, and you wiss to grant grem, like 10 % MR??? That will certainly help against the INNATE -15% from dungeon !

Can you just have a look at the Reference please?
Knowlege Magic Protection
10 47%

And for your information, in Hard difficulty, my hero level is roughly like this:
End of week 1 - level 8
End of week 2 - level 12
End of week 3 - level 15
End of week 4 - level 18

Moreover, Wizards usually have Enlightenment, so getting bonus to attributes

It seems to me that the whiners in the forum certainly spend more time whining than actually learning to play the game!!!

[Elvin]

And for your information, in Hard difficulty, my hero level is roughly like this:
End of week 1 - level 8
End of week 2 - level 12
End of week 3 - level 15
End of week 4 - level 18

Moreover, Wizards usually have Enlightenment, so getting bonus to attributes

LOL! Can you do that on any map?What do you start with,exp enlightenment?I agree that academy is not that bad off but still needs a helping hand in either artificer or earlygame creatures/costs tweaking.

[letsrock]

I said it before, discussion on forum can't never lead to an agreement. It's better to play online to see it (there are many very good H5 players online). Just because you can't do it, this does not mean that other people cannot do it either.

[Elvin]

I mean it cannot always happen and not on any map,not that I can't do it myself.On an 1 vs 1 yes but when there are more opponents things can get complicated.As I tend to play medium maps when players are 4+ it's not as easy.Just in case I'm referring to lvl 18 on week 4,not on the whole.

[Sir_Toejam]

Golems is the defender, MG is the attacker. So Golems's init is not important.

that's a great strategy, pre patch 1.2

with only 1 repair per combat, how can you protect your gremlins with the golems any more?

you either lose golems, because you can only repair 1 stack, or you lose gremlins to whatever is manuevering around your golems.

perhaps you could spell out exactly how you are setting up your stacks, as i can't figure out how to do it without losing one or the other, with the single repair per combat.

and of course this strategy is worthless against shooters.

[letsrock]

> that's a great strategy, pre patch 1.2

> with only 1 repair per combat, how can you protect your gremlins with the golems any more?

Vs large (2x2) walkers or flyers or slow (1x1): just use 2 stacks: 1 MG, 1 golem, then its very simple, just Repair at the last minute (when there are few hostile creatures left).

Vs fast (1x1) walkers or flyers: you can either use Tent (if you have) or if you do not have Tent, MG is enough (take out the Golem). Just surround 1 main stack of MG with 5 small stacks of MG (1 per each stack): 3 are used to surround the main stack, 2 others will fill in if needed. You should lose a few MG only. This tactic works well with any good shooters of any race. In fact, that was what I do with Blood Fury too (but only works with 2x2, as you need to have 1 empty space around the Fury so they can get out to attack, also with Blood Fury the 1 unit stack would be Assassin or any level 1 you have).

> I mean it cannot always happen and not on any map,not that I can't do it myself.On an 1 vs 1 yes but when there are more opponents things can get complicated.As I tend to play medium maps when players are 4+ it's not as easy.Just in case I'm referring to lvl 18 on week 4,not on the whole.

I said "roughly". So it depends on the map as well. However, Havez with Tent can get that in most maps. Other heroes may fall a bit behind (but not much, level 15 at end of week 4 should be doable, as you just ignore strong shooters/spellcasters). Moreover, the main point that precedes this in my old post was: with only 10 Knowledge (easy to get in week 3) you can have 47% Magic Protection mini-artifacts.

[letsrock]

Another thing, when I play Academy, these are the skills I choose for my Hero:

Summoning Magic
Light Magic
Enlightenment
War Machines
Sorcery

Logistic is good too, but it will take 1 of the above out, and moreover, it is very hard to get it as Wizards (only 2% chance of getting Logistic when levelling up)

[Elvin]

Agreed.Heroes with necromancy or warmachines usually have a faster rate of levelling but lvl 15 at least should be attainable.About the gremlins I put them in the corner and surround them with 3 small stacks or gargoyles whose losses I could live with anyway

Another thing, when I play Academy, these are the skills I choose for my Hero:

Summoning Magic
Light Magic
Enlightenment
War Machines
Sorcery

Logistic is good too, but it will take 1 of the above out, and moreover, it is very hard to get it as Wizards (only 2% chance of getting Logistic when levelling up)

Mine is rather similar:I don't get warmachines as I take Jhora/Galib(though I admit they are great esp with attack's flaming arrows!) and I may substitute light with dark magic.Sometimes I'll even swap enlightenment with luck but I'd have to get it early.