shifting required building resources to remove bottlenecks

[Sir_Toejam]

I've been playing around trying to rework building costs to help remove early bottlenecks (first couple of weeks).

I've shifted types of resources, and i've shifted resource costs upwards (to higher level buildings) in some cases.

made a couple of the intermediary specials less costly (like sacrificial pit).

Here are the changes I am just now starting to test out:

Changes resources needed for various buildings in each faction, better balance of resources mostly.

details below (i got sloppy with interchanging building/creature names - i'll fix it later).

Preserve:
_____________

Dancers (level 2):

basic: -3 wood, +2 ore
upg: -5 wood, +5 ore

Hunters (level 3):

basic: -5 wood, +250gp
upg: -5 wood, +5 ore

Druid (level 4):

basic: no change
upg: -5 ore, +500gp

Treant (level 6):

basic: -5 wood, +5 ore, + 500gp
upg: no change
______________

Academy:
______________

Mage tower (level 4):

basic: -5 sulfur, +500gp
upg: -5 crystal

Pinnacle of wishes (level 5):

basic: -5 merc, +5 wood, +500 gp
upg: no change

Silver pavilion (level 6):

basic: -5 ore, +5 wood, -5 gem, +500 gp
upg: no change

cloud temple (level 7):

basic: +5 merc, -1000 gp
upg: no change

______________

Haven:
______________

archers (level 2):

basic: +5 wood, -5 ore
upg: +5 wood, -5 ore

footmen (level 3):

basic: -3 wood, -3 ore, -250gp
upg: -500gp

griffin (level 4):

basic: no change
upg: -5 ore, +500 gp

cavalier (level 6):

basic: no change
upg: -10 wood, +5 ore

training ground:

-500gp

______________

Necropolis:
______________

mansion (level 4):

basic: -5 ore, -5 merc, +5 crystal, +250gp
upg: no change

Hall of darkness (level 6):

basic: -5 ore, -5 wood, -5 merc, +5 gem, +500gp
upg: no change

Dragon Vault (level 7):

basic: -5 ore, -5 wood, -5 merc, +5 sulfur, +500gp
upg: no change

Necromancy amplifier:

+5 wood, -5 sulfur, +3 crystal

_______________

Inferno:
_______________

kennels (level 3):

basic: -5 wood, +5 ore, -2 sulfur
upg: -5 wood, +5 ore, -2 sulfur, +250 gp

hall of temptation (level 4):

basic: -3 merc, +3 gem
upg: no change

hell hole (level 5):

basic: -5 sulfur, +5 crystal
upg: no change

temple of the damned (level 6):

basic: -3 merc, +3 crystal
upg: no change

forsaken palace (level 7):

basic: no change
upg: - 5 merc, -5 sulfur, +5 gem, +500gp

sacrificial pit:

-5 sulfur, -500gp

___________________

Dungeon:
___________________

altar of elements:

-500gp, -2 merc, -2 crys, -2 sulf, -2 gem, +5 wood

Dragon lair (level 7):

basic: +5 wood, -3 crys, -3 sulf
upg: no change


I'll post the mod friday, after i test it out a few times, or later if there are significant changes suggested (feel free, btw, to suggest changes).

this is complicated as there are so many factors, but i tried to take into account the general bottlenecks most folks mentioned in the forums.

The map I will be using to test is one of the new, user made multiplayer maps: Dead Man's Lake, if anyone cares to follow along. that map has only 2 towns, the geometry is fairly simple and symmetrical, and the randomness factor is pretty decent (and I can stand to play it multiple times )

cheers

[okrane]

when will we have the mod uploaded, Sir_Toejam?

[Sir_Toejam]

this one's taking me some time to test.

might not be until next week, at the rate I'm proceeding.

gotta test all the factions on a couple of different maps.

takes time.

yesterday, i tested preserve and the adjustments on two different maps seemed to work out pretty well (playing a third now - a new custom user map); no horrible shortages of wood, just enough (usually running out right at the end of each week, maybe with a little marketplace trading, but not much). still have to make some choices, but the bottleneck is reduced quite a bit. certain maps were really hard on the elves before, with only one wood mill available, no water (for flotsam), and random wood piles very rare.

not so bad now.

I think I might make companion mods to tweak a couple of creatues too.

maybe make the upgrade to war dancer give the little guys 8 speed, so it's worth the tremendous cost of building the upgrade (they can hit large creatures across the battlefield on their first turn then, or small with tactics).

also tweaked down the hps on druids by 15%, and knocked their "power" rating down a bit, which should make small groups of them more likely to flee if outnumbered, and slightly easier to take out, if they aren't a small group (left everything else the same).

added 15% hps to djinn and their upgrade, just to make them slightly more durable, and am thinking about reducing the per unit cost by 10% as well.

but, as i say, those changes will be in a separate mod(s).

[okrane]

We're all getting impacient about your mods Sir_Toejam

Personally I think that after a little testing, if it goes ok we should have it... so we can do our own testing and come up with feedback... you know.. more is better than one

[Sir_Toejam]

patience.

4 factions down, 2 to go.

I'm satisfied with the preserve, academy, dungeon and inferno changes.

still need to test necro and haven.

another couple of days.

(it's not the only thing I'm working on, ya know)

[Kristo]

Personally I think that after a little testing, if it goes ok we should have it... so we can do our own testing and come up with feedback... you know.. more is better than one

That's a really good idea. Since H5 is so moddable you can have lots of people test it and submit patches/new ideas. Your developers are also your users. Most open-source software works this way and it works extremely well.

So basically all you need is to smoke test a mod (i.e., make sure it doesn't crash) and then release to the wild for everyone to hack on. With lots of people looking at it, you can balance/fix things a lot faster than exhaustively testing it yourself.

[Sir_Toejam]

you don't understand...

that is essentially what I actually do with the mods i release; it's just that this one impacts quite a lot of things, and I at least like to see how things work out before I post something.

It took me a couple of hours to test the skills mod i released, because i can simply use the console to add xp until i reach the ultimate for each faction, but for testing how the resource changes work, i need to play through the first few weeks of a map for each faction.

sorry, that's just the way i work.

I'll have it up for the weekend.

[Sir_Toejam]

finally.

ok, it's done.

here's what it is currently:

Preserve:
_____________

Dancers (level 2):

basic: -3 wood, +2 ore
upg: -5 wood, +5 ore

Hunters (level 3):

basic: -5 wood, +250gp
upg: -5 wood, +5 ore

Druid (level 4):

basic: -5 crys, +5 merc
upg: -5 ore, +500gp

Unicorn (level 5):

basic: no change
upg: -5 gem, -5 crystal, +5 sulf, +5 merc

Treant (level 6):

basic: -5 wood, +5 ore, + 500gp
upg: no change
______________

Academy:
______________

Mage tower (level 4):

basic: -5 sulfur, +500gp
upg: -5 crystal

Pinnacle of wishes (level 5):

basic: -5 merc, +5 wood, +500 gp
upg: no change

Silver pavilion (level 6):

basic: -5 ore, +5 wood, -5 gem, +500 gp
upg: no change

cloud temple (level 7):

basic: +5 merc, -1000 gp
upg: no change

______________

Haven:
______________

archers (level 2):

basic: +5 wood, -5 ore
upg: +5 wood, -5 ore

footmen (level 3):

basic: -3 wood, -3 ore, -250gp
upg: -500gp

griffin (level 4):

basic: no change
upg: -5 ore, +500 gp

cavalier (level 6):

basic: no change
upg: -10 wood, +5 ore

training ground:

-500gp

______________

Necropolis:
______________

mansion (level 4):

basic: -5 ore, -5 merc, +5 crystal, +250gp
upg: no change

Hall of darkness (level 6):

basic: -5 ore, -5 wood, -5 merc, +5 gem, +500gp
upg: no change

Dragon Vault (level 7):

basic: -5 ore, -5 wood, -5 merc, +5 sulfur, +500gp
upg: no change

Necromancy amplifier:

+5 wood, -5 sulfur, +3 crystal

_______________

Inferno:
_______________

kennels (level 3):

basic: -5 wood, +5 ore, -2 sulfur
upg: -5 wood, +5 ore, -2 sulfur, +250 gp

hall of temptation (level 4):

basic: -3 merc, +3 gem
upg: no change

hell hole (level 5):

basic: -5 sulfur, +5 crystal
upg: no change

temple of the damned (level 6):

basic: -3 merc, +3 crystal
upg: no change

forsaken palace (level 7):

basic: no change
upg: - 5 merc, -5 sulfur, +5 gem, +500gp

sacrificial pit:

-5 sulfur, -500gp

___________________

Dungeon:
___________________

altar of elements:

-500gp, -2 merc, -2 crys, -2 sulf, -2 gem, +5 wood

Dragon lair (level 7):

basic: +5 wood, -3 crys, -3 sulf
upg: no change


this is totally beta still; it's just so complex to change resources like this and then test how various maps will play out.

so, for anybody interested, consider this "open beta", and I'm not going to put it in the table until there is a bit of feedback from others who played with it a bit.

grab it here:

https://www.celestialheavens.com/homm5/ ... ldmods.zip

cheers

I also have a companion mod for djin to add 20% more hps, and reduce their cost of purchase a bit:

https://www.celestialheavens.com/homm5/mods/djinn.pak

and, if anybody is interested, some motivation for upgrading dancers, as it costs quite a bit to upgrade the blade dancer building. I increased speed by 2, increased cost by a little to purchase them. makes them actually useful as a first strike unit.

https://www.celestialheavens.com/homm5/ ... dancer.pak

[okrane]

Sir_Toejam... I think you really like Sylvans

On the first glimpse it seems to me that +2 speed to wardancers is kind of too strong... they will become feared when guarding a mine or smth. I mean they have a really powerful damage output since they can hit every surrounding unit and even w/o a change they were a pain in the neck when charging through the field, getting near your archers and hitting everyone...
I'll try them out...

Anyway these mods are very welcomed and I am thankful for your work...

[Sir_Toejam]

On the first glimpse it seems to me that +2 speed to wardancers is kind of too strong

oh yes, much feared in large numbers now, but only in certain circumstances.

they still go down just as easy. using the standard strategies one would use against cerberi works just fine.

the only real difference is that now they can contact large units on the first turn. sylvans didn't really have any units that could do that until level 7.

actually, i probably should also put up the mods that decrease the druid strength a bit too. the basic version receives a reduction in hps (~15%), and the elder druid drops an initiative point. both give more xp for killing them now, and their power level is dropped by 20% (that means that small neutral stacks are more likely to run when faced with your armies, not that their attacks are weaker).

just so I'm not accused of favoritism

https://www.celestialheavens.com/homm5/mods/druids.pak