changes to skill requirements for ultimate skills

[Panda Tar]

Oh, that sounds fun. I was throwing myself into Single Player and Multiplayer maps to reach those skills 'just-to-see-how-they-work', but that was hardly possible.

Now, it can be a lil' different, eh? Good work.

I'll test it.^^

[Metathron]

There is no reason to have skill Imbue ballista as a requirement for Nature's luck.

i deliberately chose obtuse skills (as much as possible without too much duplication), just like the original skill trees were often not the obvious choices.

Although that does sound like a good idea, I'm concerned about two things. The first is not really that much of an issue - it's like Tarenor said, that the War Machines skill does not really mesh well with the outdoorsy elves. But more importantly, I remember reading the following in the Sylvan strategy guide (https://www.celestialheavens.com/570):

Distrustful of technology, Rangers have a minimal chance of mastering War Machines.

So this is worrisome because it sounds as if the ranger will have a hard time picking the War Machines skill in the first place. I don't know to what extent this is true, though.

Aside from that, I'm very thrilled you've made this mod, Sir_Toejam. Thanks a bunch, and I'm off to try it out right now.

EDIT: I started to play a single scenario with the Sylvan faction and one of the choices my hero received on the first level up was Basic War Machines. Therefore, unless this was sheer luck, this skill does not appear to be as unattainable as rumoured...

[okrane]

I posted this in another thread... so sorry for those who read it twice. I have a humble suggestion to make:
I must say this mod is great but I would love that the ultimate would fit better in the optimal skill tree of every hero. I mean:

-for necro: power of speed it's just plain useless for a necromancer. If you have attack with a necro IMHO you would definately get Battle Frenzy and Archery. I mean I find these two essential.... and the third would be cold steel or tactics... depending if you want to be more offensive or defensive.
I suggest replacing the requierement to cold steel ...

- for warlock: I never took enlightment as a skill... and even if I would, I would definately go for Intelligence... it's the only thing really useful...
so getting wizard's renewal will get you 3 almost useless skills: Eagle Eye, Dark Revelation, Wizard's Renewal...
Better change that to Tear of Asha vision... you will get warlock's luck anyway..

- for Wizard... same as warlock: scholar, wizard's renewal, graduate... are kinda useless... you might want not to spoil 3 skills...
I don't know... when I take Enlightment I just take it to expert and take just Intelligence as a secondary skills... the rest I spend my skillpoints elsewere...

for Ranger: Ballista it's ok... only one problem: your hero has 2% chance of getting the warmachines skill (correct me if I am wrong... it sais so in the manual...). of course the combo triple ballista + flaming arrows is a strong one... but it is hard to gain the warmachines skill and you will give up the Archery ability...
Maybe replace this requirement with Familiar ground.... since logistics is one of ranger's favorites...

heaven and inferno are ok... since the requierement are already very useful

As I said in the begining this is just my opinion... and I'd love to have these requirements... I find it not so fun when having to choose between a well customised skill set and the ultimate... IMO the ultimate should empower the optimal skill set... and I belive we all can agree that some skills are essential for each faction without restraining the generality...

[Metathron]

for Ranger: Ballista it's ok... only one problem: your hero has 2% chance of getting the warmachines skill (correct me if I am wrong... it sais so in the manual...). of course the combo triple ballista + flaming arrows is a strong one... but it is hard to gain the warmachines skill and you will give up the Archery ability...

Why would he have to give up Archery? That skill is under a different category than the two required ones (Luck and War Machines). Or do you mean that getting to Archery would interfere with going straight to the ultimate skill? In which case I will say that getting to it only requires two level ups - Basic Attack and then Archery.

Otherwise, I think you made some highly relevant points!

Also, I think the hero who strives to obtain the ultimate skill, should be forced to relinquish at least a few of his otherwise most useful skills, since the ultimate skill is not like any other given skill, but much more powerful (in most cases, at least).

[okrane]

Why would he have to give up Archery?

Because you would like to get Flaming arrows also... to increase the usefulness of the ballista wich in end-game becomes kinda weak...

[Metathron]

Why would he have to give up Archery?

Because you would like to get Flaming arrows also... to increase the usefulness of the ballista wich in end-game becomes kinda weak...

Frankly, that's too whimsical a reason. If I'm lucky enough to have the ultimate ability, and Archery to boot, I'll pretty much be busy wreaking havoc rather than reminisce about lost chances.

[okrane]

yeah.... ok... this wasn't exactly the topic here... the thing is Warmachines are unlikely to be offered to a ranger and there are other more useful skills: like logistics for example

[Sir_Toejam]

Because you would like to get Flaming arrows also... to increase the usefulness of the ballista wich in end-game becomes kinda weak...

LOL.

you really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

the avenger class gets the best feats of anybody in the war machine tree.

imbue ballista plus triple ballista, NOT fire arrows.

have you ever tried it?

put implosion or meteor shower on your ballista and watch the fireworks.

anywho, the point is that if you look at the original requirements for getting the ulitimate specials, they took four trees with LOTS of "suboptimal" skills. i saw the reason for this being to force the player to make a tough choice to get ultimate specials. In reducing the requirements down to 1.3 trees, I at least felt that still leaving some "suboptimal" choices in there would be a good thing.

I take your point that war machines might be a rare pick for avengers, though. However, in practice that hasn't been the case as I've tested the mod.

anybody else have input on whether it is too hard to get the war machines skill for avengers?

[okrane]

you really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Never played Sylvan(well... maybe just a little bit)... :p So ok... you win ... ballista is fine...

anywho, the point is that if you look at the original requirements for getting the ulitimate specials, they took four trees with LOTS of "suboptimal" skills. i saw the reason for this being to force the player to make a tough choice to get ultimate specials. In reducing the requirements down to 1.3 trees, I at least felt that still leaving some "suboptimal" choices in there would be a good thing.

Suboptimal ok... but I'm not confortable with giving up an excelent skill in order to get the ultimate... and never being able to get them both...
and here I speak of necro (and I played necro alot) and warlock.
For necro Archery is excelent... do you agree?
For warlock intelligence is excelent...

So why give them up?...
Many people would love integrating the ultimate in their favorite skill tree and not feeling that they missed something... but hey... this is just what I think...

[Sir_Toejam]

but hey... this is just what I think...

you haven't convinced me, but I'm listening.

do play with the mod a bit and see what you think afterwards.

[okrane]

well maybe we could ask around some more...
I think everyone would like it so much better this way... 'cause that's what games are all about... having fun... and having your absolute dream hero is lots of fun

[Metathron]

Here's a screenshot of my Sylvan hero gaining the ultimate ability:

[Sir_Toejam]

whee!

As the first to post a screenie, you get to have your screenie used as the default screenie for the mod (it gets put in the mod download area, and added to the zip file containing the mod).

I'll put it in the mod table, and inide the zip file as soon as i edit the sizes.

cheers

wait, do you have one that shows the actual normal hero screen with the required skill trees, not the levelup screen?

that's what i need.

thanks

[okrane]

I tried the ultimates ...
i have some screenshots but I don't know how to upload them...

I must say that I still believe I have a point about getting some suboptimal skills for your skill tree... because not every hero class gets suboptimal choices...
Knight, Ranger and Demonlord get exactly what they dreamed... and you must admit... Ranger's and DemonLord's ultimates are DEADLY...
I mean... luck every time... wow... it is like increasing your damage 125%
and instant gating: that means in half a round you nearly doubled your army...
But let's take warlock and necro now:
I don't believe warlock's ultimate could match the one of ranger's... and additionally you must sacrifice some good skills to get it... I suggested tear of asha vision in stead... so you would take only one nearly useless skill (tear of asha vision... in stead of 3 skills fron enlightment)
and same about necro: -6 morale sounds good... but you would miss out 20% damage from the Archery skill... and I don't think -6 morale compares to always get lucky shots....

So the thing is: if everyone had to make suboptimal choices... it were ok... but if ranger and demonlord, the classes which IMO have the strongest ultimates, get their ideal skills, why not the rest?

I think it will make us have more fun getting the best out of our heroes.

[Phobos]

Here's screenshots of Sinitar having Rage of the Elements. I don't know which screen was wanted, so I'll put them both here.

[Metathron]

wait, do you have one that shows the actual normal hero screen with the required skill trees, not the levelup screen?

that's what i need.

thanks

Oh, sorry, I hadn't realized that. Here they are, if you still have any use for them:

[Sir_Toejam]

that'll do, thanks.

[Sir_Toejam]

but if ranger and demonlord, the classes which IMO have the strongest ultimates, get their ideal skills, why not the rest?

lol.

somebody else recently complained about the rangers having to take war machines, as that was "suboptimal" in their mind.

still thinking.

[okrane]

Well you have a big chance of not getting war machines... or at least get it very late...

I modified your mod on my computer to have as requirements for warlock just DArk Revelation... and for necro chilling steel... so i decreased by 1 the level needed to get the ulimate... but this is not a very major change...
And now I can get Intelligence or Archery and still have the ultimate... so I'm happy :d

But the thing is.., ultimates are rather tricky... for Inferno and Sylvan they are way too strong, Sylvan especially... for the others, well I find them not that great... Could you make them require just some essential primary skills
(like for example: Expert Destruction Magic + Exp Irresistible Magic + Exp Luck) but require also level 25?

EDIT: an alternative for a ranger could be familiar ground as they are likely to get logistics

[Sir_Toejam]

But the thing is.., ultimates are rather tricky... for Inferno and Sylvan they are way too strong, Sylvan especially... for the others, well I find them not that great... Could you make them require just some essential primary skills
(like for example: Expert Destruction Magic + Exp Irresistible Magic + Exp Luck) but require also level 25?

requiring level 25 would entirely defeat the purpose.

how many maps have you played where you even made it to level 25?

aside from the level requirement, yeah, forcing expert level skills can be done by requiring perks and feats.

as you have seen, it's easy to modify to suit your own purposes.

as a general rule, if you want to force advanced level of a base skill, you only need to add one feat.

if you want to force expert level, one perk and one feat will suffice.

the internal game mechanics take care of the rest.

as to the value of the ultimates...

yes, i agree that nature's luck and intant gating are far more powerfull (usually) than the dungeon special or haven specials.

However, if I set it up so it took more levels to get one than the others, there would have inevitably have been complaints of favoritism from somebody else.