Sinergy and mobs

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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DaemianLucifer
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Sinergy and mobs

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 02:50

Another one of my realism proposals.I like the idea of the size of stack affecting the units damage,although nival implemented it quite bad.Heres my idea how it could be improwed:

All creatures are affected by the size of the stack.The more creatures,the harder to coordinate their attacks.So,even though a larger stack means bigger damage,it also means more penalty on that damage.This penalty would usually be some -1 per weekly population in stack(calculated to the final damage,and not affected by any other bonuses/penalties).So,while larger(and usually stronger)monsters are doing more damage then smaller ones,they are also harder to coordinate and thus deal less damage when in big groups.That is,unless they are leaded by a skilled hero.For each level of the hero,this penalty is reduced by 2.Also,if a hero has a specialty in that creature,the penalty is reduced by 1 more per level.There would be exceptions to this,of course.

For example,units with formation(such as squires)would have a bonus instead of a penalty.

Loose troops,like archers,would receive neither bonus,nor penalty with the growth in their numbers.

Casters,however,would be synergetic and would sacrifise their initiative for aditional damage.With their growth they would receive -1% to their initiative(its harder to focus so many casters on the same target),but only after casting the magic.Their magic,however,would be more potent,and would receive a bonus to damage.Casters,however,arent affected by heroes level,but by his knowledge.Each point of knowledge negates 1% of the initiative penalty(but does nothing to the attack bonus).

And mind you that +/- to the total damage isnt anything special.Maybe percents would work better,or -1 for every 10 creatures,or something like that would work better.

And if you couple this proposal with this one,this one,and this one it would really be hell of a game :D (hell of a game for developers to make,but also hell of a game to play :devil: )

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Unread postby Corelanis » 19 Sep 2006, 03:10

A good idea for realism, but the only creatures that would actually benefit from it seem to be casters. So in that what if your penelty reduction from hero level continue until they recived a bonus to damage. That way a high leveled hero would give a bit of a bonus from being such a skilled leader. Also how many creatures are required to recieve the penelty/sinergy. Would it be based on individual creatures or on creature lvl, barring the exceptions of course.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 03:16

Of course,giving the bonus to some units acording to hero level would also be nice.And it would be based on the level.The simplest way to implement is using the weeklyy growth,so high levels would have more penalty with bigger stacks then low levels.

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Unread postby Corelanis » 19 Sep 2006, 03:25

Would creatures with area effect attack gain a larger penelty then normal creatures?
Edit: This is more for the secondary target, such as for dragons you have the target and then the creature behind which would recieve a less damage than the one in front.
Last edited by Corelanis on 19 Sep 2006, 03:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 03:31

Hydras would,but not cerbery.In fact,I think that cerbery should be a formation creature(thus receiving a bonus).Pixies dont strike me as very disciplined,so they wouldnt receive the bonus from formations.

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Unread postby Kilop » 19 Sep 2006, 03:41

yeah good idea, but not that much changes on gameplay though ...

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Unread postby Corelanis » 19 Sep 2006, 03:42

I dont think its meant to radically change gameplay just add some realism to it.

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Unread postby Kilop » 19 Sep 2006, 03:44

yeah yeah, got it, but, what i meant to say , is tha it complexifies the game wothout bringing much to it, not that i am against this idea ...

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 03:57

Well heroes already is very complicated,yet no one complains.I believe many even learned the formula for the spellpower of a casters stack :devious: Also,here Ill mention homeworld again,and say that it also has very complicating things in it(physics of the movement of the ships,physic of the beam weapons,physics of missles,etc),yet it is quite easy to learn.Its all just in the implementation.

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Unread postby Kilop » 19 Sep 2006, 04:00

if you say so .... may i just ask for balance first ??? :P ;)

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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 19 Sep 2006, 04:16

Kilop wrote:complexifies
Nice word! :)

I like your creature retaliation and caster blocking ideas the most DL. The retaliation one would work wonders for this game.

As for spell power and knowledge skills, the problem was solved pretty well in H3 by modding some files to triple mana cost if hero didn't have secondary skill proficiancy in one of the four schools.

The idea in this thread does seem a bit complicated for such a small impact, but maybe I'm underestimating it.

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 19 Sep 2006, 04:22

I do not like the proposed changes.

Initiative is extremely important. Large stacks of casters will be wiped out before being able to cast their spells.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 04:25

Kilop wrote:if you say so .... may i just ask for balance first ??? :P ;)
Yeah,if its at all posible.But Im true with ideas to balance this game,I went into the future(Im the da vinci of the present :D )and tossed the ideas that will be seen in HMMX :devil:
mr.hackcrag wrote: The idea in this thread does seem a bit complicated for such a small impact, but maybe I'm underestimating it.
Indeed,+/-20 is nothing when the damage is in thousands.But if this were percents,it would mean a lot.But in order to find the proper value,testing with actual game is needed.And that will be in cca 3016 :devil:
Last edited by DaemianLucifer on 18 Nov 2006, 01:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby Corelanis » 19 Sep 2006, 04:26

DaemianLucifer
Casters,however,would be synergetic and would sacrifise their initiative for aditional damage.With their growth they would receive -1% to their initiative(its harder to focus so many casters on the same target),but only after casting the magic.
I think you miss read.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Sep 2006, 04:38

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote: Initiative is extremely important. Large stacks of casters will be wiped out before being able to cast their spells.
Actually they wouldnt.Their first action will come normaly.But,then theyd have to chose wheter they will use their extremly strong spell that will make their next turn come very late,or attack normally and have their next turn come quicker.

Besides,I dont like how initiative works now.No creature should have(naturally)4 times the initiative of any other creature.Initiative should be from 100(zombies and hydras) to 200(phoenix).

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 23 Sep 2006, 11:09

DaemianLucifer wrote:But,then theyd have to chose wheter they will use their extremly strong spell that will make their next turn come very late,or attack normally and have their next turn come quicker.
The spell dmg doesn't really need a big bonus cause it suffers no range penalty. Of course the danger is that it will always be cast on the first turn but never after, thus making spells a 1-trick pony.
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 23 Sep 2006, 12:57

True,but it would be a waste to use your spellcasters just once like that(well,not pitlords,but others for sure).

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 23 Sep 2006, 13:05

DaemianLucifer wrote:True,but it would be a waste to use your spellcasters just once like that (well,not pitlords,but others for sure).
Well right now you can use them what?! Twice?! Oh, they also get no retal even if the target is next to them, so i guess that's something too.
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 23 Sep 2006, 13:16

Errr,no you can use them even when they shoot their spells as ranged units.But if they get an initiative penalty,theyll never act again(well,in very long battles they would,but still much rarer)

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 23 Sep 2006, 13:23

I meant the spells. None of the destr ones can be cast more then 2 times coz of the mana reqs. And an init penalty of 25-50% should be enough.
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