map editor has 8 town limit - nival has to change this

[DaemianLucifer]

Again Ill bring the example of draconic.Its an XL map that has almost zero fillers.It doesnt stop once you cap all your heroes,it still plays after that,and it still is fun and exciting after that.And its not just battles that make a map excelent.For example take around the calendar.It is a map with excelent story,great quests and events.If you play it on the lowest difficulty,it will be just as fun.Mind you that not everyone enjoys just barely survived battles.Mind you that not everyone has the skill to fight trough hordes of enemies with just one peasant.There are lots of elements that make up a great map.The only thing that can spoil a map for sure is a useless limit,like the 8-town cap.

And you keep asking who will have the time and nerves to make an epic map,and you keep getting the answers from people like GOW that they will do it for sure,but you just ignore them.And,if you want more info about how much it takes to make an XL map,check it here.

[Jolly Joker]

I don't want to argue with you, DL; no sense in it.
It's nice that you already know how mapmaking will be, and it's certainly nice that you already know who will make epic maps in the future with the map editor you don't know and for ar game you don't like.
Even more, you can name a cool XL map for, what? Heroes IV? That's amazing. You make it sound like there was ONE good map. Wow.
I only asked Qarl a question. Qarl. Ok? Because Qarl obviously has dabbled with the editor and has some practical experience with it. Ok?
I didn't ask anyone on info about the editor and mapmaking in previous Homms, because I know them myself and has made maps myself. I have furthermore tested quality maps a lot, for example FieryPhoenix maps or Ungoliant maps and others. Ok?

[Laserluger]

I think, that Heroes V is a game that needs a tight "environment control" because otherwise things will run out of every order.

There is no, absolutely no reason NOT to give the mapmakers
the,,, Ooooh scary word coming up, CHOICE! to make whatever they want. If someone makes a map too big and with too many cities... So what?

It is not like it will make the game ANY worse

[vhilhu]

Laserluger, as much as i get it, the problem is that there are only 8 towns(with unique story and name and special) of each town type. so if there are 9 infernos on a map, one of them wont get to have a special ability and story.

[Qarl]

Oops, sorry, I forgot to answer your question, JJ. Actually, I don't really feel qualified to answer it because I never made any maps for HoMM games. I'm an old Morrowind modder myself. But I've played HoMM games since 2. And when they release the editor for 5 I'm planning to try my hand at it.

But since I do know I thing or two about scripting, both from my Morrowind modding experience and from the BS in computer science I got from Michigan State, I'll take a guess so as to not leave ya completely hanging... I think it would probably take someone with the skills you mention at least a month. Maybe more.

For one thing, in the beta editor at least, you have to place every single thing on the map by hand. Every little patch of grass, every flower, one at a time. For another, the script engine seems pretty complicated -which is good in my book, because it means it's powerful- but it may take some time to learn.

But one thing I learned modding for MW was that the there's really not that much of a hurry. Actually making the thing is the fun part, playing it, and/or releasing it to the public isn't nearly as much fun.

[Ethric]

But this should be up to the mapmakers decision, not the developers one.

That's really the main pont for me. Saying "We've decided to place this limit here to prevent you from trying to make too big maps becuse we know you'll only make a crap job of it."is an insult. The point isn't that more often than not the discussed limits won't be a problem, it's that they will be a problem more than often enough to make people pause and ask "Why oh why, stupid gawdamn... *grumble* bugger this I've got better things to do with my time." on a regular basis. Some like big maps, some like to make big maps, any limit of number of towns placed should be a mere technical one, like 48 or so, and any "Hold n towns to win"-mechanic should be adjustable and optional. I have so far heard no reason why it couldn't be an optional feature.

[myythryyn]

I think, that Heroes V is a game that needs a tight "environment control" because otherwise things will run out of every order.

i do have to wonder, with the specific rules of HOMM V, was this game inteneded by the developers to ever be in an epic scale? or was this game more designed for small quick mutli player maps?

it just seems like there are so many things that point to the developers making this game a certain way, like an eight slot boxed UI.

and i didnt know about that there are only eight names and statistics for each type of town for each faction. another thing that hints towards nival maybe never intending this game to have epic maps or be on a large scale, hints towards capping things at eight.

sure we as players want to make huge maps with many towns, large continents, nothing should stop us, but do we really want to play on those maps with the ruleset of HOMM V? are the majority of huge maps made going to end up being unplayable messes?

do we really want to play against a cheating AI with a large amount of towns? on hard and heroic, weve seen the size of armies the AI can create with just one or two towns, imagine what the army sizes on larger maps with more towns.
how are we going to balance things when we never know if the AI will ever pick up its treasure or claim its resources?

will map makers have to always remember to be careful how many undead and haven faction towns they place? that if they put too many it could make the map unplayable?

so i dunno, i have to wonder if the HOMM V ruleset is even designed to be on a large scale, or if id even want to play against the AI on epic maps.
im overall feeling kinda pessimistic right now when is that map editor being released...

[DaemianLucifer]

Laserluger, as much as i get it, the problem is that there are only 8 towns(with unique story and name and special) of each town type. so if there are 9 infernos on a map, one of them wont get to have a special ability and story.

Really?Shouldnt this be customizable and not premade?How did you count 8 towns for each race?

For one thing, in the beta editor at least, you have to place every single thing on the map by hand. Every little patch of grass, every flower, one at a time. For another, the script engine seems pretty complicated -which is good in my book, because it means it's powerful- but it may take some time to learn.

Asy what?no brushes?Well that sure means no quick XL maps.Also,if there is no way to make picture maps like in HIV,it will also disable some very nice looking maps.Although,considering how much resources those maps took,I fear to imagine what kind of computer youd need to play a picture map in 3D

i do have to wonder, with the specific rules of HOMM V, was this game inteneded by the developers to ever be in an epic scale? or was this game more designed for small quick mutli player maps?

They always did tell that theyll focuse more on the MP.Although some of their decisions about MP are weird,and MP turned really,really bad.

sure we as players want to make huge maps with many towns, large continents, nothing should stop us, but do we really want to play on those maps with the ruleset of HOMM V? are the majority of huge maps made going to end up being unplayable messes?

Who cares?If the map becomes a mess,no one will play it.The only one that losses is the mapmaker.It is his fault that map became unplayable,and no one elses.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Laserluger, as much as i get it, the problem is that there are only 8 towns(with unique story and name and special) of each town type. so if there are 9 infernos on a map, one of them wont get to have a special ability and story.

They could add a number of random town names and have random bonuses.

GOW

[vhilhu]

Laserluger, as much as i get it, the problem is that there are only 8 towns(with unique story and name and special) of each town type. so if there are 9 infernos on a map, one of them wont get to have a special ability and story.

Really?Shouldnt this be customizable and not premade?How did you count 8 towns for each race?

remember how heroes were in h3(and i guess also all the other homms)?
you cannot place 2 heroes with eg Bron identity(special). you can place 2 heroes with Bron picture or 2 heroes with Bron name, but there is absolutely NO WAY(unless you manually change it with wog) you can have 2 heroes with basilisk special. its the same with towns, now that towns have specials.

but i do hope town special will be customizable somehow.