Renegade units in Addon

[Kalah]

Ptttt. It's stupid.

[ThunderTitan]

Especialy considering this:

The angels are the incarnation of Elrath on Ashan, and as such they are the most ultimate representation of his power.

[Kalah]

So a fallen angel is merely an incarnation of Elrath which no longer follows him? What is it this fallen angel has fallen from, I wonder? If it has fallen from the cause (whatever that may be), what's it doing in the Haven?

Fact is, angels and fallen angels are mortal enemies. Not upgrades of one another.

[soupnazii]

the angel, a basic holy being, can choose to further his holyness and get a "promotion" to an Archangle. or he can decide "screw this bull, this town needs me and they know it, but im not going to keep looking up to that @$$ Elrath". so they become fallen angels. thats the way i understand it. and either way, do you really want to start up that same argument of realistic vs. good gameplay? cause no one ever wins...

[Kilop]

JJ now that you have say what are those red units may u be kind enough to ;ake clear wether or not they are available in MP ???

[King Imp]

So here are the alternative Haven upgrades:
Level 1: Brute (Tax Payer; Shield Bash)
Level 2: Crossbowman (Shoots; Rapid Fire)
Level 3: Vindicator (Cleave)
Level 4: Battle Griffin (Large, Flyer, Unlimited Retal, Battle Frenzy)
Level 5: Zealot (Shoots, No Melee Penalty, Caster)
Level 6: Champion (Large, Champion Charge)
Level 7: Fallen Angel (Large; Flyer, Life Drain)

I sure hope they have more differences than just that. The Levels 1, 4, 5, & 6 are basically the same things as what we already have.

[koganei83]

but it sure looks fun...

what about the orcs? are they coming back too?

[soupnazii]

orcs may be in second expansion, but i seriously doubt it. they are featured in DM, and the next addon will likely feature the town that worships the water dragon (probably Nagas).

@KI:
I disagree. i think that they are all completely different enough (as different as identical creatures can be) to be very different in battle and change complete combat strategies. The Haven strategy needs to be re-written.

[Kilop]

i agrea, no more precise shot, large shield ... it makes a dif here
i really hope that nival make hose units choosable as an alterate strategy in haven...

[soupnazii]

i was looking more at taxpayer, double attack, battle frenzy and lack of battle dive, but its the same idea...

[King Imp]

Okay, I'll change my views on the Level 4 & 6 units as their new abilites are cool.

Level 1 though is exactly the same and Level 5 is as well. Unless of course the Zealot has different spells than the Inquisitor. If they do, then I am totally cool with all of these units as the Level 1 is a piece of crap anyway that no one cares about.

*Edit* Scratch that about the Level 1 unit. I didn't realize it had the ability of the Peasant and the Conscript. Okay, that is cool.
Now to just find out about the Zealot's spells.

[Kilop]

ok forget the dream, tose units will not be purchasable... well just in dwellings, but nobody uses creature growth from neutral dwelling anyway... they are fun thought...
it s the lvl 1 that confirmed that, no one would want the normal one when u can have one that has the 2 abilities ... so haven stays the same ... at least we ll have dwarves

[Jolly Joker]

Ah, come on people. Get the grey cells in your brains working. Use your imagination a bit.
1) There will be stat differences. Sure, the Brute has Shield Bash AND Taxpayer, but I'm pretty sure that his stats won't be as good as the Militia's - he will come with less HPs, I'm rather sure. I'd say furthernore that the Zealot will have a different spell set. But who can say how things go stat-wise? Not me, that's for sure.
2) Will the "renegades" be available for regular mp play, or, in other words, has this feature a meaning beyond the campaign? Well, as someone pointed out, no, it can't be, because then Haven had an unfair advantage - and there is no way to "pick" at this point.

DISCLAIMER: Let me tell you first that O have no idea how the gameplay looks, and I have no idea about anything else beyond this first addon. I don't know more than you here. So this is just SPECULATION!! Please keep that in mind. I'm NOT trying to leak things out, I'm just thinking aloud.

But let's try and think a bit over it. This feature was not to be disclosed. Why? If this was intended to be a once-only feature, why that secrecy?
Second, would Nival work on a set of alternative monster upgrades - and throw it all away, idea and all? I don't think so.
That leaves a lot of room for speculation about the next addon. In theory we have two more possible towns, Orcs and Nagas, which would bring the possible total to 9. We furthermore have the Free Cities, whatever THEY are. And we have the possibility of an expanded alternative upgrade feature for all towns.
Now, the Renegades seems to be a complete set of troops. I have difficulties to imagine a completely optional build which would give you an option to mix all the types, like, Brute, Marksman, Vindicator, Imperial Griffin, Inquisitor, Champion, Fallen Angel. I can much more easily imagine a set-wise pick, play Haven A or play Haven B - which would basically double the amount of available towns if they would do it for all towns. Because it would be a LOT easier to implement and to balance and you can make units of the different sets sufficiently different. I mean, if it would all be optional you couldn't have one set with a very balanced line-up and one with a few sub-standard and a few excellent ones because you could combine the excellent with the balanced ones - it cries no-brainer. Which leaves the either-or option.
Which is an interesting prospect, if you ask me.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

So here are the alternative Haven upgrades:
Level 1: Brute (Tax Payer; Shield Bash)
Level 2: Crossbowman (Shoots; Rapid Fire)
Level 3: Vindicator (Cleave)
Level 4: Battle Griffin (Large, Flyer, Unlimited Retal, Battle Frenzy)
Level 5: Zealot (Shoots, No Melee Penalty, Caster)
Level 6: Champion (Large, Champion Charge)
Level 7: Fallen Angel (Large; Flyer, Life Drain)

Fallen Angel and Life Drain did it for me.

Rapid Fire isn't explained yet.
Cleave: If this creature’s attack kills at least one creature in the target stack, it performs an additional strike.
Battle Frenzy: Every next retaliation strike performed by this creature inflicts damage 1.5 times as great as the previous one.
Champion Charge: If this creature has walked more than 2 tiles when attacking, it also inflicts half damage on the stack standing in the line of attack immediately behind the primary target.

My first thought is this going to be a very overly powered town from looking at these abilities.

Rapid Fire: Yet to be seen

Cleave: He gets 2 melee attacks every turn (almost aalways a creature will die.)

Battle Frenzy: Combine this with resurrect and they can only be killed be archers...but the Champions will kill the protected archers.

Level 5: Zealot (Shoots, No Melee Penalty, Caster) I wonder if he is as tough as the inquisitor and what spells he gets.

Champion Charge: Way overpowered. No one can protect their shooters/casters.

Level 7: Fallen Angel (Large; Flyer, Life Drain): Way better than any other level 7.

[Jolly Joker]

No, I don't think they are overpowered. The army characteristics have changed. Even if the Brute had the same stats than a Militia, there wouldn't be a difference in battle. There might a difference in stats, though. I don't think that a Crossbowman will be better than a Marksman, at least not consistently. Now, the Vindicator is a completely different unit, imo. NO guarding of shooters anymore, so that unit has not more defense value than a common meatshield, so it would be wasted as a meatshield then. That unit is obviously an attacker. I wonder how fast it is in terms of Initiative and Speed. The Battle Griffin misses the Battle Dive which is THE shooter killer, so the Griffins lose their best ability. Battle Frenzy is mainly an ability that discourages half-hearted attacks even more - so not the owner decides about how useful this ability is, but the opponent. Nothing known about the spells of the Zealot. Now the Champion makes up for the lost Battle Dive - partly - with an ability which is something akin to a mix of Death Cloud and Acis or Fire Breath. I agree that Champions will be better than Paladins in an all-out-battle, but much depends on the layout of the battlefield here. All in all I'd still slightly favor the Battle Dive/Jousting combo. Now the Fallen Angels. Yes, that will be a hell of a unit. Probably the best level 7 then and so far, but we don't know about stats - they might be worse than those of an Archangel - lower damage, for example.
That leads to an army with completely different army characteristic: that line-up is a brutal attack monster NOT geared to preserve units, but to KILL. It's probably more of an infernal army than the Demons themselves - but I don't think it's overpowered.

[DaemianLucifer]

So a fallen angel is merely an incarnation of Elrath which no longer follows him? What is it this fallen angel has fallen from, I wonder? If it has fallen from the cause (whatever that may be), what's it doing in the Haven?

This just proves my point that dragon gods are actually just a myth,and that angels are creatures just like any other.

And,like I said,we will have two heavens now.One corrupted by markal,and the rebel one fighting him(starwars anyone?).This is probably just a campaign thing,because:
1)they are using already done models and not making new ones
2)I really dont see a story for splitting other towns.Sure,the dungeon could split,but how can you split inferno?Or necro?Those are mindless.

[King Imp]

I can much more easily imagine a set-wise pick, play Haven A or play Haven B - which would basically double the amount of available towns if they would do it for all towns.

I have to say that if they do it for one, then they need to do this for all the factions.

[DaemianLucifer]

I have to say that if they do it for one, then they need to do this for all the factions.

Not if they do it just in the campaign or make it like a choice in the map settings.Besides,a little imbalance is actually a good thing.Look what balance gave us:Exactly one upgrade for all units,same costs(well,almost the same,but remember when you had a level 6 unit that costed 1000 and a level 6 unit that costed 5000 gp),all towns have a flyer,a slow enraged tank,a ranged unit and a caster(too bland),etc.Id really like to see the chaos of HII back.

[Thelonious]

.Id really like to see the chaos of HII back.

Even HoMM II wasn't total chaos. The towns were just increadebly set on one type of tactic. Which is IMHO not a bad thing. But the thing that is bad about it is that it leaves you with fewer choices. Though I'd prefer that over HoMM V, where you can basicly go anyway you want with the amount of diversity in troops and indiversity in towns.

But think about it, if you'd built towns based on a main type unit; you'd get a sort of HoMM II. The shooters would be good vs. tanks, the tanks vs. spell casters, spell casters vs. cavalry, cavalry vs. shooters.

[ThunderTitan]

We furthermore have the Free Cities, whatever THEY are.

They're explained in DMoMM. Basicaly they're independent city-states with little connection to one another and only a city guard at the beginning of DM.