Expansion HOMM 5

[Jolly Joker]

Okay, one last thing for caster splitting.
We create a new unit abilty. Ranged units have an "ability" called RANGE PENALTY (perfectly logical and balanced). So now we create the abilty MASS PENALTY. Mass penalty is a penalty applied to big stacks due to the fact that efficiency might drop the more units there are that have to share the same space. For casters, especially for damage spell casters, there are interferences the more casters there are in one space that will lead to a drop in efficiency the more casters there are in a stack. Perfectly logical.
In the current version of HommV not many units have a Mass Penalty, and characteristically it appears for special attacks like damage spells, Overseers explosion, but also for Wraiths Harm Touch and others that will suffer when fighting in bigger stacks (or more correctly, will do an over-proportional amount of damage in small quantities).
In theory all units could get a mass penalty and it would make perfect sense. The game would be different, but it would make sense.

Now for story.
Let's see, Heroes I had no story at all in the campaigns. In fact, campaigns were simply a series of maps to be played with all 4 towns.
Heroes II - The Brothers. You call that a story? I mean where are the details? The characters, the events? The addon haad 4 campaigns, 2 short ones and 2 longer ones - no story either.
Return to Erathia. Story? Characters?
Okay, AB and SoD. There are stories and there are characters, but frankly, not that impressive.
H IV had indeed good stories - and not only the Halfdead. All campaigns had excellent stories, more or less, even though the playing..., but no matter.
Now, for H V many are complaining, but I like the subtle way the characters are developed.
You start playing what is supposed to be a heroine, but is in fact an arrogant bitch - as is to be expected: Isabel is a noblewoman and supposed to marry a king, so it's simply normal that she is an arrogant bitch like most of the noblemen in the middle ages were. And she must be that way, because how else could an exiled Dark Elf working as an agent for the Demon Souvereign fall in love with her? I mean, he's a DARK ELF, not some Roland or shining Knight or whatever. Markal appears on the scene and, yes, OF COURSE Isabel, arrogant bitch that she ishas nothing else in mind than putting every demon to the torch and make up for her failure to rescue her beloved king - no matter the price.
So Isabel and Raelag are quite interesting characters and the end is by no means a happy one.

That leaves the expansion. As I have been told it will be officially announced next week. I'm going to repeat that this is an expansion that will for a change really rock. I would love to tell you something about it, but I'm not allowed. There's a new town, sure, everyone knows that, and let me tell you the new town is a freaking killer, in terms of units as well as in terms of new creature abilities and new racial ability - I can't wait to play it.
However, it's definitely not the new town that is the most stunning thing there, not really. I'd say, very seriously, that this addon will be what the Armageddon's Blade addon could have been (and, no, there won't be the Forge).

And a P.S.: I'm not going to make a list here of the things I find lacking (there's quite a list) because basically I trust in Nival to find original solutions for problems once they accept that there IS indeed a problem (which seems to be the bigger part of the problem). For example, patch 1.3 will bring us among other things changes for the Raise Dead and Resurrect spell and I'm really amazed about what they did there. It looks pretty good at least: Each Raise Dead on a stack will reduce the HPs of their units by 20%. Example You lose 50 Skeleton Archers. You cast Raise Dead. You gain 50 Archers, but they will have only 4 HPs now instead of 5 for the rest of the fight. Resurrect is the same, but with a 10% reduction. I mean, this is simply a great idea, at least that's my opinion. It's a PLAYER's solution, giving options, making the spell more difficult to use, giving it a downside.

[ThunderTitan]

Now, for H V many are complaining, but I like the subtle way the characters are developed

Dude, you're killing me here.

H1 had all the story in the manual.

Character development doesn't make a story good btw, it just helps.

And in H5 imho all the characters were 2D caricatures of people. "Haha i have tricked you", "woe is me, i love isabel and hate sylvan elves", "i'm just a spoiled bitch, gimme what i want", "i'm unhinged and want everyone to be undead" or "i speak in bad rhymes and fight 4 my land" aren't great characterisations.


And the Exp only has 1 town? I really hope the 2nd exp also adds another town, so at least it equals H3's original number. And i really hope the Barbarians come back. They've been with the game since the start.

[Paulus1]

And thank you for bringing up one more imbalance.It seems that shadow matriarchs are most effectevie when deployed 1,1,1...,others,because the single creature stacks can slow your enemy/boost you while the big stack shoots.

In theory I agree with you. But I tend to find all my slots occupied by the time I actually have any shadow matriarchs to split.

Unlike, again, in Heroes IV where I always had free slots for genie splitting.

The reason I keep pointing to Heroes IV is the fact that you, repeatedly, talk about the percieved problems with HV, while at the same time praising features from HIV.

Just because i happen to mostly defend it against people that unjustly consider it The Devil doesn't mean i'm not aware of it's shortcomings, you might have noticed that if you weren't under the thrall of them blue orbs most of the time. devil

I actually really like HIV myself - just pointing out that it's also not perfect by any means.

What blue orbs?

[Jolly Joker]

Now, for H V many are complaining, but I like the subtle way the characters are developed

Dude, you're killing me here.

H1 had all the story in the manual.

Character development doesn't make a story good btw, it just helps.

And in H5 imho all the characters were 2D caricatures of people. "Haha i have tricked you", "woe is me, i love isabel and hate sylvan elves", "i'm just a spoiled *****, gimme what i want", "i'm unhinged and want everyone to be undead" or "i speak in bad rhymes and fight 4 my land" aren't great characterisations.


And the Exp only has 1 town? I really hope the 2nd exp also adds another town, so at least it equals H3's original number. And i really hope the Barbarians come back. They've been with the game since the start.

How many addons for Homm had new towns in the past? How many had more than one? And H1 had the story in the manual? Yeah, ok. Go read the manual again. Great.
Oh and about character development. That's the main thing of a good story because without characters there simply is no story.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Paulus1

I praise good things from HIV,not HIV in general.Theres a big difference.I praise FoW,LoS,bigger BF,heroless armies,daily growth,etc.But I complain about bad things like AI,unbalanced heroes,etc.I do the same for HV.I defended the initiative system number of times because I find it very good.Excelent even.

@Jolly Joker

When I read your first post about the expansion,a ray of hope appeared once again.But after reading your posts about the balance and story,that hope dwindles again.And all that talk about new town being awsome has been heard before.And what did we get?Chicks in high heels.Hmmm...Does that mean large breasted nagas?

Though I must admit,the solution for raise dead and resurrection is really a briliant one.I am suprised.Pleasantly suprised!Nival does deserve an aplause for that

[ThunderTitan]

Oh and about character development. That's the main thing of a good story because without characters there simply is no story.

A good story doesn't really require people actualy learning something. Not all have to be coming of age or learning about oneself stories. And i still say that not all stories are character driven. A good story doesn't require a hero or a main character.


And how does the fact that previous HoMM games have pretty weak expansions justify H5 having a weak expansion (not that i'm saying it will be weak, just that i would have prefered more towns)?

Does that mean large breasted nagas?

Slithery....

[theLuckyDragon]

Return to Erathia. Story? Characters?
Okay, AB and SoD. There are stories and there are characters, but frankly, not that impressive.

Is the liberation of a country that has been overrun by enemies from all sides not a story? Is a devious necromancer that gets the king murdered and then has him ressurected as a lich not a worthy plot element? Is the fact that the lich king has his own plans, thus leading to an unlikely alliance between necromancers, knights, wizards and rangers, not an interesting plot twist? Is the fact that the lich king is finally put to rest by his own daughter not dramatic enough?

What is so incredibly bland about a queen that comes to save her homeland from invaders? Is it really that boring to see how she manages to rally her allies in a time of great need? How she saves her beloved husband and how, in the end, kills her own father to give him his eternal peace?

What's so unimpressive about the story of how a world almost got destroyed? Or of how a witch shunned by her people manages to save her homeland? Or about the stories of two young ambitious men who strive to fullfill their dreams, albeit for two opposite reasons?


You'll see that it's impossible to objectively answer these questions, thus the issue of H3's story cannot be so summarily dispatched. I've said what I had to say.

[asandir]

good call tLD

Now, for H V many are complaining, but I like the subtle way the characters are developed.

doesn't that tell you that there is a problem??!!!! ugh, character development in HV, that would be Agrael becoming Raelag then??

i looked at the raise dead thing again .... and sure it makes it a bit less powerful, but now all you need to do is reduce the enemy down a bit and then cast it, because at the end of the day, it's use is to bring the units back so you have them for the next fight, when their HP is restored .... and a technical question, can you have a stack of skelly archers that are mixed "alive" and "raised" and if so how do you manage the fact that some will have 5 HP and the raised ones 4 HP???

[Jolly Joker]

good call tLD
i looked at the raise dead thing again .... and sure it makes it a bit less powerful, but now all you need to do is reduce the enemy down a bit and then cast it, because at the end of the day, it's use is to bring the units back so you have them for the next fight, when their HP is restored .... and a technical question, can you have a stack of skelly archers that are mixed "alive" and "raised" and if so how do you manage the fact that some will have 5 HP and the raised ones 4 HP???

It will make no difference in fights where the enemy's complete efforts will not kill more units than can be raised again with one cast. If the enemy gets to hit a bit more, it gets nasty. See the duels or a fight between two armies. If you lose a sizable part of a force you will want to raise them - but that means it is easier to be destroyed because -
and that's the second part of the question - of course the whole stack will be reduced in HPs. I thought that was obvious.

[Jolly Joker]

What is so incredibly bland about a queen that comes to save her homeland from invaders? Is it really that boring to see how she manages to rally her allies in a time of great need? How she saves her beloved husband and how, in the end, kills her own father to give him his eternal peace?

Then what is so incredibly bland about a to-be-queen that comes to save her homeland from invaders? Is it really that boring to see how she does not manage to arrive in time to save her beloved not-yet-husband? How she further wastes his soul forever in a misguided attempt to restore him to a mockery of life and is used in her state of mad despair to bear a child that might bring doom to the whole realm, while valiant heroes - the one who killed her beloved among them - fight not only for the sake of the world but for her redemption as well?

[asandir]

It will make no difference in fights where the enemy's complete efforts will not kill more units than can be raised again with one cast. If the enemy gets to hit a bit more, it gets nasty. See the duels or a fight between two armies. If you lose a sizable part of a force you will want to raise them - but that means it is easier to be destroyed because -
and that's the second part of the question - of course the whole stack will be reduced in HPs. I thought that was obvious.

either this is incredibly stupid or you missed the thrust of my question, let me try with an example

lets say you have a stack of 100 skelly archers, 50 get killed, so you cast raise dead on the stack and raise 40 of the dead skelly archers ... you now have a stack of 90 skelly archers, how do you have a single stack of skelly archers of which 40 have 4 HP and the remaining 50 have 5 HP?? if this is possible, cool, if not then ... what???

[DaemianLucifer]

What is so incredibly bland about a queen that comes to save her homeland from invaders? Is it really that boring to see how she manages to rally her allies in a time of great need? How she saves her beloved husband and how, in the end, kills her own father to give him his eternal peace?

Then what is so incredibly bland about a to-be-queen that comes to save her homeland from invaders? Is it really that boring to see how she does not manage to arrive in time to save her beloved not-yet-husband? How she further wastes his soul forever in a misguided attempt to restore him to a mockery of life and is used in her state of mad despair to bear a child that might bring doom to the whole realm, while valiant heroes - the one who killed her beloved among them - fight not only for the sake of the world but for her redemption as well?

The story itself is average.Not brilliant,bot not bland either.But,catherene has her story told in tons of pages.You read about her being torn appart by her father being a vampire.You can really feel her pain.As for isable,you get just a poorly acted "Nooooooooo",some spell effects,and of course,"Griffin unduying"

And,not to mention that HV is just HIII story retold,but with different names,catherene being a real warrior,and isabel being a spoiled bitch("Hey,you guys!I wanna play war too!Give me an armour and start flailing those fat peasants!").

@stefan.urlus
The whole stack gets its HP reduced,wheter you raise 1 or 99 out of 100 creatures.

[Jolly Joker]

I must be somehow unable to express myself correctly.
If you have a stack of x creatures, get y of them killed and raise z of them the WHOLE STACK will get reduced in HPs. Example:
You have 10000 Spectral Dragons with 160 HPs each. 1 is killed. You have now 9999 Spectral Dragons with 160 HPs each. You raise 1 Spectral Dragon. You have now 10000 Spectral Dragons with 128 HPs EACH until the rest of the fight. You lose 2 Spectral Dragons again. You have 9998 of them with 128 HPs. You cast Raise Dead on them. You have 10000 Spectral Dragons again now with 96 HPs each until the rest of the fight.... you have 10000 Spectral Dragons with 32 HPs each. You lose 10. You want to Raise them. Sorry, but the game tells you that Raise Dead is currently not available for this stack!

[Mytical]

So the price for raising a few out of many is they ALL loose hp???? What sense does this make? Perhaps they should instead make a 'temporary' stack for the raised ones or something. But then I guess they would not carry over after fight.

[Jolly Joker]

Oh, come on now.
It makes a lot of sense gamewise because it will lead to the player being unable to cast Raise Dead as soon as they lose a skelly. It isn't the almighty cure anymore. Imagine a tough fight against a ranger whose Elves fire first. 200 out of 1000 Skelly Archers down. You can raise them now, restoring a lot of attack value and damage points, but instead gaining 1000 HPs resurrected for good you actually gain no HP at all, only attack potential. Raising LESS than 20% of a stack will actually lose you HPs! I mean, we are talking about a LEVEL TWO spell here, right? If used correctly you CAN save a lot of units against neutrals with it, but it won't win you fights single-handedly against armies anymore.
Note, that the Resurrection HP loss is only 10%. (I don't know whether this effect will be in for the ARchangels as well.)
Another thing is, btw, that spell costs for level 3, 4 and 5 spells will be raised with patch 1.3.

[Mytical]

Sorry off topic and edited.

[DaemianLucifer]

It does make sense.Those spells are so powerfull that they require more then just mana.They require life force as well.

[Meandor]

In theory all units could get a mass penalty and it would make perfect sense. The game would be different, but it would make sense.

If all units had mass penalty then it would be better,while now only selected few can boost their force 2x by simply dividing stack of casters in two stacks. Yet i would prefer no mass penalty.

Let's see, Heroes I had no story at all in the campaigns. In fact, campaigns were simply a series of maps to be played with all 4 towns.

When was H1 made? It`s natural that standarts rised since then.

H IV had indeed good stories - and not only the Halfdead. All campaigns had excellent stories, more or less, even though the playing..., but no matter.

That`s the main reason why i hate H5 story, series should evolve. H1-3 was nice evolution, H4 took some different directions, but story telling evolved even more. And what do we have in H5? Gameplay evolves a bit, but story telling? Imho story itself is passable, i would give it 4/10, but fact that it came after such masterpiece like Half-dead gets it down to 2.

Now, for H V many are complaining, but I like the subtle way the characters are developed.

Problem is that most of their actions are ilogical or stupid(no i`m not talking about ressurecting Nicolai) and their personalities with all story are cliched like i don`t know what.

And the Exp only has 1 town? I really hope the 2nd exp also adds another town, so at least it equals H3's original number. And i really hope the Barbarians come back. They've been with the game since the start.

Whats wrong with 1 town? I`m happy that expanshion has at least 1 town. Quality > quantity.

Does that mean large breasted nagas?

Give me the expansion! now!

Yes it will limit the effectiveness of the spell, but why not just weaken the effect of the spell in the first place? Cut the effect by x ammount or whatever. Or raise the level of the spell, mana cost, or a dozen other ways to make it work better?

With this new effect Necro will still have huge advantage when fighting neutral stacks, but when fighting other heroes he won`t have unlimited army. I will be really surprised if this fix will be in 1.3 patch.

[Mytical]

I guess in that context it does work. Ok I'm not so confused anymore.

[vhilhu]

when i first saw h5, i kept wondering where are goblins and orcs and ogres. its really hard to guess now what town will come with expansion.