Utopia in a Month

Dublex · Unread postby **Dublex** » 27 Jul 2006, 09:17

I'm sorry, but if I caught anyone using this early on I would deem them as cheating and boot them from a game I was hosting, as strategy or not, its an exploit.

Infiltrator · Unread postby **Infiltrator** » 27 Jul 2006, 10:40

I've done the exact same thing with Furies + multiple scouts, but the haven example is much faster because of the marksmens' special. I thought this was widely known (single stack splitting in H3 was popular), but good guide at any rate

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 27 Jul 2006, 11:06

sezerp wrote: Yet another nice feature dropped nobody knows why.

Isnt it obvious?To speed up gameplay

Infiltrator wrote:I've done the exact same thing with Furies + multiple scouts, but the haven example is much faster because of the marksmens' special. I thought this was widely known (single stack splitting in H3 was popular), but good guide at any rate

Yes,it was popular as a retal stealing,but not as blocking.And there are really too much splitting exploits now.Casters,for example.Or attacking with 7 1 creature stack,so your hero can finish the enemy.

Campaigner · Unread postby **Campaigner** » 27 Jul 2006, 13:21

Impressive! GREAT tactics! (It IS tactics, not strategy)

It's funny to see people call this an exploit, as this tactic depends on number of dragon stacks and the layout of obstacles. You have to make a strategic decision (sacrifice a hero) to gather intelligence about the conditions of the upcoming battle (nr of enemy stacks and the layout of obstacles) in order to assure victory.

And I agree with Ethric. Those who can't handle advanced tactics such as these should play chess or GalCiv II since there's no battletactics there.

Alamar · Unread postby **Alamar** » 27 Jul 2006, 13:57

No offense but this "strategy" is just an artificially set up excersize:

1. Dragon Utopias [in the maps I play] always have 4 stacks.

2. You're not going to encounter "near perfect" battlefields often

3. The dragons that you face often have inits FAR far higher than your troops. You run a very high risk of emerald & green dragons going 2 times before you can shoot & kill them. Note the 3 dragon stacks in the example are the slowest of all dragons [in init].

4. The ATB in the given example is virtually perfect. I couldn't have photoshopped a better starting alignment.

5. Even with a near perfect battlefield and ATB placement 5/6 of the blockers were lost. The margin of error in this near perfect situation was slim.

6. On Average a Precise Shot with that number of archers should kill a stack of dragons. However any bad damage rolls will doom you. Note I have seen absolute minimum damage enough times to know this is a grave risk.

7. In SP you can always reload ... in MP it's game over if you miscalculate.

Alamar · Unread postby **Alamar** » 27 Jul 2006, 14:02

On the issue of tactics & strategy Campaigner makes a good point. This is more of a battlefield tactic than a strategy.

I would submit though that the tactic relies upon the fact that the opponnent is too stupid to figure out what's going on

As for exploit or not I don't think it meets enough of the points to make it a true exploit but I would state that it is not intended that you should be able to beat a dragon utopia with this type of troop disposition so it is getting close on a few points.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 27 Jul 2006, 15:15

No,its not tactics,its an exploit of a dumb AI.The fact that anyone can use it,or that it is clever doesnt mean its not an exploit.If a human was to control the dragons I doubt youd be able to kill more then 2 of them(2 creatures,not 2 stacks).

Kristo · Unread postby **Kristo** » 27 Jul 2006, 15:37

LordErtz wrote:
Kristo wrote:Just out of curiosity, what is the effective range of Precise Shot?
3 squares

Oh. If it's only 3 squares, then we have uncovered a flaw in the battle AI. I'm sure the Dragons could kill Peasants while staying out of the 3-square range until it was absolutely necessary to move in there. The AI seems to fall into the trap because it's trying to reach the Archers. It has a choice between six equal stacks of 1 Peasant and it chooses the ones that are closest to its real target. What it should be doing is attacking Peasants where the expected damage received from other troops is the least.

So, either the AI doesn't look ahead far enough, or isn't programmed to consider the effects of Precise Shot.

Romla · Unread postby **Romla** » 27 Jul 2006, 16:00

I agree with DaemianLucifer. AI can never be so smart as human player (at present). Kristo's argument that AI did everything right is also true, but only if you consider that AI programmers did not have so big fantasy to see that one can kill 15 dragons with 6 peasants and throng of marksmen. Human player will not be as dumb to dish up dragons to marksmen's supper. But if this is possible then something is wrong with AI. Maybe it is next nice item to patch. However I think nowadays we need more important things to be patched :-)

While I was typing Kristo repaired his opinion about AI :-)
Edited on Thu, Jul 27 2006, 10:09 by Romla

Marine OKeefe · Unread postby **Marine OKeefe** » 27 Jul 2006, 16:14

This isnt an exploit at all, Its a valid combat tactic. While this exact situation is unlikely the tactics used in this can be used in any melee enemy battles.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 27 Jul 2006, 16:18

Marine OKeefe wrote:This isnt an exploit at all, Its a valid combat tactic. While this exact situation is unlikely the tactics used in this can be used in any melee enemy battles.

Ok,if it can be used in any melee battle,I dare you to use it against me(or any human player,for that matter).If you beat me Ill admit that its not an exploit.

Sir Gallant · Unread postby **Sir Gallant** » 27 Jul 2006, 17:51

This is a tactics, not an exploit. If human was to command the dragons, losses on his side in this very case would CERTAINLY by greater than 2 dragons.

And yes, splitting troops (however boring I myself consider this idea) can be helpful in almost any melee battle -- for wasting enemy retaliations for example. Unless you also consider this tactics to be an exploit, lol.

Sir Gallant · Unread postby **Sir Gallant** » 27 Jul 2006, 17:53

And by the way, thanks to all of you who deemed this smart tactics an exploit -- you made me re-make my account on CH (I forgot my login/pass and was too lazy to sign in again, heh).

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 27 Jul 2006, 18:43

You can't use this one to win against a human player, that's why it's an exploit. You're exploiting the AI's way to chose targets.

Spliting troops is a tactic. Using it to trick the AI is an exploit.

@Sir Gallant:
I really apreciate the fact that you took the time to register just so you can support something false. Reminds me how funny life really is.

DaemianLucifer · Unread postby **DaemianLucifer** » 27 Jul 2006, 18:47

You guys are right,this is a tactic.And capturing your enemies castle on day 1 when you are first and buying all of his creatures is a valid strategy that requires lots of brains,and absolutely no luck.And putting on boots of travel on the end of each day,and removing them on the begining of the next to put on some combat ones is also a strategy that requires lots of thinking.

maltz · Unread postby **maltz** » 27 Jul 2006, 19:08

> You can use this one to win against a human player, that's why it's an exploit.

Er... That doesn't sound quite right. You can use a lot of things to win against a human player.

Anyways, back to topic. I think this is a great feat! Cheers to those who (apparantly more than one) figured it out all by themselves, simply because they are smart. Too bad now everybody knows it...

Edited on Thu, Jul 27 2006, 13:13 by maltz

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 27 Jul 2006, 19:15

Ups... Forgot the 't. Fixing.... and done.

MER · Unread postby **MER** » 27 Jul 2006, 19:18

Exploit or not, this is the beauty of HOMM. there have always been such tactics/exploits against AI in the series. I won't forget in H3 killing 3000+ nagas (slowed) with a bunch of archers and 1 pixie which lured them left and right

. Nor will I forget defending a castle with 7 of 1st the unit against an enormous AI force (without a shooter regretably

).

This is HOMM spirit - find ways to trick the AI thus training for MP.

ThunderTitan · Unread postby **ThunderTitan** » 27 Jul 2006, 19:24

MER wrote:"This is HOMM spirit - find ways to trick the AI thus training for MP."

How is using something that won't ever work in MP unless you're playing against your cat "training for MP"?

I don't really have anything against it, just against people saying it's not an exploit.

MER · Unread postby **MER** » 27 Jul 2006, 19:31

"How is using something that won't ever work in MP unless you're playing against your cat "training for MP"?"

What I meant was while you search for ways to trick the AI you get used to utilizing the battlefield to the most (and learn valuable lessons on what you shouldn't do in MP if you don't want to look like a noob).
Edited on Thu, Jul 27 2006, 13:43 by MER

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