List the Underpowered tier 7 Units!!!

[geekman]

I haven't played every race yet, because I really enjoy the single-player campaigns in any strategy game, and I want to be "surprised" a tad by what the other towns look like inside and that kind of thing. Rightnow, I'm on Campaign 2, Mission 4, "The Ship"; after spending at least two weeks trying to beat "The Conquest". I must have restarted the whole campaign at least twice, to get the "right" skills for Agrael, and becuse I screwed up by getting Master of Curses, while I'm going for Urgash's call. I finally beat it, after reading a tip here, or on the official forums, saying to ignore Wenlan and go for the North-East town instead (though I couldn't capture it because Gilraen was right there, with his legion of "Clone Troopers", so I got the North-West one instead).

Anyway, back on topic here, I think that, so far, the Devils and Arch-Devils are the most overcosted level 7 creatures. I wouldn't say they have "bad" stats, but they cost way too much for what you get. I understand the 666 thing, but it makes them too expensive, and I see no reason for Nival to choose a novelty like that over the unit's effectiveness, and over-all game balance. While I haven't built the Hall of "whatever" to be able to recruit Devils in Ur-Nebryzias, and have therefore never had a Citadel or Castle with one, their base growth of 1 a week looks pretty bad. It's not like they're Archangels or Black Dragons! And Black Dragons actually cost less!

I think Inferno has lots of problems in general, especially the Demons' terrible initiative, the almost non-existant defense of the Hell Hounds/Cerberi, and the fact they only have one shooter; though once you get to Succubus Mistresses it pretty much evens out with their chain shot.

[stijn]

I think Inferno has lots of problems in general, especially the Demons' terrible initiative, and the almost non-existant defense of the Hell Hounds/Cerberi, and the fact they only have one shooter; though once you get to Succubus Mistresses it pretty much evens out with their chain shot.

i don't think inferno units have a bad initiative, or am i not getting you right. i totally agree with you about the weird decision to make certain units' cost ending with 666. it doesn't make sense, it's funny for 5 seconds, and then it just makes the devils too expensive and the nightmares a bit too cheap.

[geekman]

I think Inferno has lots of problems in general, especially the Demons' terrible initiative, and the almost non-existant defense of the Hell Hounds/Cerberi, and the fact they only have one shooter; though once you get to Succubus Mistresses it pretty much evens out with their chain shot.

i don't think inferno units have a bad initiative, or am i not getting you right. i totally agree with you about the weird decision to make certain units' cost ending with 666. it doesn't make sense, it's funny for 5 seconds, and then it just makes the devils too expensive and the nightmares a bit too cheap.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough just using the word "demons". My mistake. I was talking about the Horned Demons and Horned Overseers specifically.(Why did Nival call the default version "Horned Demon"? In Heroes III, "Horned Demons' were the upgraded versions of plain ol' "Demons".) They're the only Inferno units that I think have bad initiative. They seem to generally be the last unit to act in a full turn in battle. And Haste doesn't really help at all. My Agrael's Haste only increases their initiative by 1-2. You really need to be skilled in Light Magic for Haste to work well. So, thank goodness for Teleport Assault! Agrael's Slow and Mass Slow work great, though, thankfully. And coupled with Advanced Sorcery, he can curse enemies plenty of times. If only I could find somewhere for him to learn Suffering and Vulnerability.........

[Omega_Destroyer]

Level 8? To satisfy all us "Spinal Tap" fans, you'd need Level 11.

It'd be one stronger!

[DaemianLucifer]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough just using the word "demons". My mistake. I was talking about the Horned Demons and Horned Overseers specifically.(Why did Nival call the default version "Horned Demon"? In Heroes III, "Horned Demons' were the upgraded versions of plain ol' "Demons".) They're the only Inferno units that I think have bad initiative. They seem to generally be the last unit to act in a full turn in battle. And Haste doesn't really help at all. My Agrael's Haste only increases their initiative by 1-2. You really need to be skilled in Light Magic for Haste to work well. So, thank goodness for Teleport Assault! Agrael's Slow and Mass Slow work great, though, thankfully. And coupled with Advanced Sorcery, he can curse enemies plenty of times. If only I could find somewhere for him to learn Suffering and Vulnerability.........

Haste(and many other buffs/curses)work on percentile base.So if you haste a fast unit,youll get more initiative then if you haste a slow one.Personally I like this way,although some down border would be nice.For example haste always gives at least +2,or if it gives less then 2,you get +2 more.

[LordErtz]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough just using the word "demons". My mistake. I was talking about the Horned Demons and Horned Overseers specifically.(Why did Nival call the default version "Horned Demon"? In Heroes III, "Horned Demons' were the upgraded versions of plain ol' "Demons".) They're the only Inferno units that I think have bad initiative. They seem to generally be the last unit to act in a full turn in battle. And Haste doesn't really help at all. My Agrael's Haste only increases their initiative by 1-2. You really need to be skilled in Light Magic for Haste to work well. So, thank goodness for Teleport Assault! Agrael's Slow and Mass Slow work great, though, thankfully. And coupled with Advanced Sorcery, he can curse enemies plenty of times. If only I could find somewhere for him to learn Suffering and Vulnerability.........

Haste(and many other buffs/curses)work on percentile base.So if you haste a fast unit,youll get more initiative then if you haste a slow one.Personally I like this way,although some down border would be nice.For example haste always gives at least +2,or if it gives less then 2,you get +2 more.

I really do agree with you. Why did they decide to go % route?? Seems stupid. They should have gone the numbers route. +1 +2 +3 etc....

[Gaidal Cain]

It's not stupid at all. In fact, if what pitsu says about initiative is true, it doesn't matter what unit you cast it on, it'll be just as effective for everyone. +40% initive means you act 40% more often, and if there's a porblem, then it's a problem with the original stats, not the spell.

[LordErtz]

It's not stupid at all. In fact, if what pitsu says about initiative is true, it doesn't matter what unit you cast it on, it'll be just as effective for everyone. +40% initive means you act 40% more often, and if there's a porblem, then it's a problem with the original stats, not the spell.

That's not the way it is. If you have someone with 10 init, and it increases by 20%, then it will be 12. If you have someone with 5 init, and you increase by 20% then its 6! 15 = 18. So haste can give a bigger boost to already fast creatures, and a smaller boost to already slow creatures. Disproportionate.

Maybe it is the original stat, but I think a universal way to fix it is to give it levels like I stated before. +1 for basic +2 advanced +3 expert. So whether its golems or nightmares, it's the same bonus.


Currently haste doesnt give a bonus to speed, and there is no spell for that either.

[Meandor]

That's not the way it is. If you have someone with 10 init, and it increases by 20%, then it will be 12. If you have someone with 5 init, and you increase by 20% then its 6! 15 = 18. So haste can give a bigger boost to already fast creatures, and a smaller boost to already slow creatures. Disproportionate.

Maybe it is the original stat, but I think a universal way to fix it is to give it levels like I stated before. +1 for basic +2 advanced +3 expert. So whether its golems or nightmares, it's the same bonus.


Currently haste doesnt give a bonus to speed, and there is no spell for that either.

Imho initiative works in this way:
Unit A has 10 initiative. Unit B 5. Unit gets turn when his "initiative bar" reaches 100. So unit A will get 2 turns while unit B one. Now let`s haste them for 100% Unit A will have 20 initative, unit B 10. Still unit A will get 2 turns while unit B one.

[DaemianLucifer]

Imho initiative works in this way:
Unit A has 10 initiative. Unit B 5. Unit gets turn when his "initiative bar" reaches 100. So unit A will get 2 turns while unit B one. Now let`s haste them for 100% Unit A will have 20 initative, unit B 10. Still unit A will get 2 turns while unit B one.

Exactly.Thats why percentage speed is the best,and most balanced solution.However,I still think that there should be a minimum number(I believe 2 would be best)by witch a unit can be hasted.

[LordErtz]

That's not the way it is. If you have someone with 10 init, and it increases by 20%, then it will be 12. If you have someone with 5 init, and you increase by 20% then its 6! 15 = 18. So haste can give a bigger boost to already fast creatures, and a smaller boost to already slow creatures. Disproportionate.

Maybe it is the original stat, but I think a universal way to fix it is to give it levels like I stated before. +1 for basic +2 advanced +3 expert. So whether its golems or nightmares, it's the same bonus.


Currently haste doesnt give a bonus to speed, and there is no spell for that either.

Imho initiative works in this way:
Unit A has 10 initiative. Unit B 5. Unit gets turn when his "initiative bar" reaches 100. So unit A will get 2 turns while unit B one. Now let`s haste them for 100% Unit A will have 20 initative, unit B 10. Still unit A will get 2 turns while unit B one.

You are only comparing one hasted creature to another enemy creature.

What happens when you haste your creature and the enemy doesnt. Your creature gets anywhere from 1-4x more attacks than each enemy creature on the opposite side, not just one other creature.

Let's use your example. UNIT A has 10 init, and 100% haste = 20 init. BUT, lets assume unit B doesnt get hasted. Now unit A has 4x attack on unit B AND possibly the rest of the enemy lines.

[ThunderTitan]

Let's use your example. UNIT A has 10 init, and 100% haste = 20 init. BUT, lets assume unit B doesnt get hasted. Now unit A has 4x attack on unit B AND possibly the rest of the enemy lines.

That is more a problem with the init system and it's balance. There shouldn't be any creatures that get 2 actions for every one action another creature does. This should only happen once every 3 or more turns.

[stijn]

a 10% initiative increase for a units means they get on average 10% more turns, independent of their initiative. i don't feel like going into deep calculations, but that's the way it is, this'll give you an idea:

let's say a unit has initiative of x. so it takes him 100/x rounds to get a turn. after 1000/x rounds, the unit has gotten 10 turns. when you haste hime with 10%, it means he gets 1.1*x every round, so after 1000/x rounds he has gotten 11 turns. this is independent of their initiative

english aint my native language so perhaps my explanation isn't all that clear, sorry about that

[LordErtz]

a 10% initiative increase for a units means they get on average 10% more turns, independent of their initiative. i don't feel like going into deep calculations, but that's the way it is, this'll give you an idea:

let's say a unit has initiative of x. so it takes him 100/x rounds to get a turn. after 1000/x rounds, the unit has gotten 10 turns. when you haste hime with 10%, it means he gets 1.1*x every round, so after 1000/x rounds he has gotten 11 turns. this is independent of their initiative

english aint my native language so perhaps my explanation isn't all that clear, sorry about that

You guys are all saying the same exact thing.

The fact that he gets 1 more turn per 1000 rounds or whatever doesnt matter. What matters is how many more turns the unit gets over all other units. You have to factor in the other units, because the bonuses can be larger on faster units and lower on slower units...i dont like that

[stijn]

a 10% initiative increase for a units means they get on average 10% more turns, independent of their initiative. i don't feel like going into deep calculations, but that's the way it is, this'll give you an idea:

let's say a unit has initiative of x. so it takes him 100/x rounds to get a turn. after 1000/x rounds, the unit has gotten 10 turns. when you haste hime with 10%, it means he gets 1.1*x every round, so after 1000/x rounds he has gotten 11 turns. this is independent of their initiative

english aint my native language so perhaps my explanation isn't all that clear, sorry about that

You guys are all saying the same exact thing.

The fact that he gets 1 more turn per 1000 rounds or whatever doesnt matter. What matters is how many more turns the unit gets over all other units. You have to factor in the other units, because the bonuses can be larger on faster units and lower on slower units...i dont like that

the other units still get the same amount of turns, so the hasted unit gets 10% more turns. that means that if they have a very high init they get more turns in absolute terms, yes. but it still is just 10% more.

[ThunderTitan]

The fact that he gets 1 more turn per 1000 rounds or whatever doesnt matter. What matters is how many more turns the unit gets over all other units. You have to factor in the other units, because the bonuses can be larger on faster units and lower on slower units...i dont like that

First, the rounds no longer exist in the old way, so 1 round = until the slowest unit acts. So he is taking into consideration the other creatures.

And as proved before the bonus isn't larger for faster units. If both are Hasted they still act as many times as if they weren't. If only one is Hasted then it should act a bit more often, because otherwise what's the point of the spell?

The problem is the fact that some units move twice every time without even being buffed, and that's an init system problem.

[DaemianLucifer]

No,the system is excelent the way it is.Its the units that needs more balancing.

[ThunderTitan]

I meant the way it's implemented.

[LordErtz]

The fact that he gets 1 more turn per 1000 rounds or whatever doesnt matter. What matters is how many more turns the unit gets over all other units. You have to factor in the other units, because the bonuses can be larger on faster units and lower on slower units...i dont like that

First, the rounds no longer exist in the old way, so 1 round = until the slowest unit acts. So he is taking into consideration the other creatures.

And as proved before the bonus isn't larger for faster units. If both are Hasted they still act as many times as if they weren't. If only one is Hasted then it should act a bit more often, because otherwise what's the point of the spell?

The problem is the fact that some units move twice every time without even being buffed, and that's an init system problem.

And it is because of the init system that the haste spell also has problems. But I think this is all off topic.

[jomunga]

I like the fact that I can just mod Heroes5. To be honest, I love the spectral dragons. I couldn't stand to see them so weak.

So I made them better while increasing their price.

I also gave devils some extra movement.