My Necropolis Guide

[Gus]

If you take an arbitrary statistic called speed ratio = (your speed)/(enemy speed), decreasing the denominator is always better than increasing the numerator by the same proportion

why not the opposite stat?

EDIT: on topic... well, if you guys are perfectly happy that a "necro guide" is nothing more than "get vlad, skelies, and go roxor", fine. I know i don't come at CH to find this kind of "strategy" about Heroes, and i know that the first two guides were really good, with depth in them. Those were worthy of being called "guides" on CH =)

[juventas]

If you take an arbitrary statistic called speed ratio = (your speed)/(enemy speed), decreasing the denominator is always better than increasing the numerator by the same proportion

why not the opposite stat?

EDIT: on topic... well, if you guys are perfectly happy that a "necro guide" is nothing more than "get vlad, skelies, and go roxor", fine. I know i don't come at CH to find this kind of "strategy" about Heroes, and i know that the first two guides were really good, with depth in them. Those were worthy of being called "guides" on CH =)

Let a = your initiative
Let b = enemy initiative
Haste: (1.0 + 0.4)a/b = 1.4a/b
Slow: a/(1.0 - 0.4)b = a/.6b = 1.67a/b

On topic: Technically, his guide *is* a strategy. Instead of being labeled "necro guide," though, it should be more specific. Like "guide to necro power-gaming" or something like that. A general guide should have more than one strategy.

[Gus]

Let a = your initiative
Let b = enemy initiative
Haste: (1.0 + 0.4)a/b = 1.4a/b
Slow: a/(1.0 - 0.4)b = a/.6b = 1.67a/b

i got that, i can do math =P my question is: why do you think that a/b is more representative than b/a ? (keeping a and b as you defined them of course).

On topic: Technically, his guide *is* a strategy. Instead of being labeled "necro guide," though, it should be more specific. Like "guide to necro power-gaming" or something like that. A general guide should have more than one strategy.

as he pointed out, it is labelled "necro guide". It's not a "necro guide", you can't say "it's a necro guide" when all it has is "use vladimir and use raise dead". please.

[ThunderTitan]

It's not a "necro guide", you can't say "it's a necro guide" when all it has is "use vladimir and use raise dead". please.

You haven't read many net guides, have you?!

[Gus]

It's not a "necro guide", you can't say "it's a necro guide" when all it has is "use vladimir and use raise dead". please.

You haven't read many net guides, have you?!

of course i have. some good, many not worth much. does that mean that "not worth much" should be the standard we're looking after? =)

[SCum]

If you take an arbitrary statistic called speed ratio = (your speed)/(enemy speed), decreasing the denominator is always better than increasing the numerator by the same proportion

why not the opposite stat?

EDIT: on topic... well, if you guys are perfectly happy that a "necro guide" is nothing more than "get vlad, skelies, and go roxor", fine. I know i don't come at CH to find this kind of "strategy" about Heroes, and i know that the first two guides were really good, with depth in them. Those were worthy of being called "guides" on CH =)

I'd rather call it a simple row of tips and justifications based on one partial preference. Now to shorten it.. is another matter. But by all means, I can hardly see it take the place of an actual guide, you've provided reasoning as to why not. I like reading what ways others play, it's interesting to then compare it with other styles.. but not once have I actually switched my style, no matter how much I'm at a disadvantage(My way of play is a part of my overall personality, why would I change it when I'm awesome(That is up for debate, but not the point >.>) as it is?)
Games are fun to me, not routine-based work.

hmmmm... It really seems people have a hard time not mixing up "strategy", "munchkinism" (sorry GC), etc... Strategy guides are about how to use the strengths of your side, how to adapt to various situations using those strengths, etc. It's not about doing the same old thing with the same old hero all the time. What's the point of playing if every single of your game is "Necro => Vladimir => Raise Dead => Skeleton Archers" ? Play once and move on to another game instead.

Well arent those strategy guides all like:

Strategy one:Turn one -> action one;Turn two -> action two;....
Strategy two:....
.
.
.

And then you pick one of those and use it again and again and again in every single MP game you play?Seriously,even chess becomes like this after some time.I remember my brother an I got to the stage when our first 10 or so moves were completely the same every single game we played.Inovation is good,yes,but saying that when theres no more inovation is no strategy is false.

Four-move win. Always take that now and then to see if my opponent is awake(Loveable if they somehow miss it, the THIRD time - not in a row though, you'd have to be drunk). But other than that, no game is the other like, used to play with my teacher alot. No game the other alike.. it was always nerve wrecking to make a sudden move which could cost the entire game if he saw my plans.. if I succeeded, gloating afterwards made it all worth it.

Of course.. I wanted him to gloat back whenever I made a mistake.
It's fun when neither party is hurt.

[juventas]

i got that, i can do math =P my question is: why do you think that a/b is more representative than b/a ? (keeping a and b as you defined them of course).

Alright, sorry about that. I didn't mean to be patronizing or anything. But think about this: what do the ratios mean? a/b means "how much faster are my units than his units?" b/a means "how much faster are his units than my units?"

In a/b, the result is: my units are more fast with slow than with haste. In b/a, the result is: his units are less fast with slow than with haste. Supports the same conclusion, even if one number is smaller than the other. You have to think about what the ratios are supposed to show, not just take the biggest or smallest number. Again, not meaning to be condescending, just wanted to clarify to anyone else who cared.

It's not a "necro guide", you can't say "it's a necro guide" when all it has is "use vladimir and use raise dead". please.

You haven't read many net guides, have you?!

Well, I read plenty of net guides. Take the Gamefaqs page for Neverwinter Nights for example. See the categories? General, character, and in-depth. Look at some of the character guides. You'll see that those character guides tell you to exactly how to play the game to that particular class's best advantages. But even though they essentially have walk-throughs in them, they are not put under the General FAQs category. They don't choose the best character class (for example, Vladimir) and then tell you it is a Neverwinter Nights walk-through. They call it a Character FAQ, appropriately.

Similarly, this guide should be called a Vladimir FAQ, not a Necromancer Guide.

[atma6]

All this is, is a necro build. This is how you like to play out your necros, but by no means is this a necro guide.

The necro guide on Gamefaqs may be lacking in some areas but it at least covers the faction instead of listing a straight build and condemning any other way to play it (really is it necessary to put dark magic in the useless pile without any good reason).

[DaemianLucifer]

I dont remember ever reading about "load your slow overlords with zergs and unleash them near enemies center" strategy in any starcraft guide.Its a valid strategy,although it wont acomplish anything but your death.So only the strategies that are equal in their strenghts are represented in guides.

[Meandor]

EDIT: on topic... well, if you guys are perfectly happy that a "necro guide" is nothing more than "get vlad, skelies, and go roxor", fine. I know i don't come at CH to find this kind of "strategy" about Heroes, and i know that the first two guides were really good, with depth in them. Those were worthy of being called "guides" on CH =)

Ofcourse it`s not a necro guide. But still it`s strategy.

[Gaidal Cain]

Less debate over semantics and more about how to play Necro, please.

To get more on topic- has anyone tested some of the necro-only abilities? as far as I can tell, Cold Steel adds something lik +8% extra cold damage- certainly not a very substancial bonus when compared to what else you can get from attack. I've yet to play with Chilling Bones or Cold Death, but from what I've heard of the former, it's not very useful.

[Alamar]

Less debate over semantics and more about how to play Necro, please.

To get more on topic- has anyone tested some of the necro-only abilities? as far as I can tell, Cold Steel adds something lik +8% extra cold damage- certainly not a very substancial bonus when compared to what else you can get from attack. I've yet to play with Chilling Bones or Cold Death, but from what I've heard of the former, it's not very useful.

I did a little bit of testing and the skill seems to be capped in such a manner that for every 11 points of damage that your skeletons do [yeah I only tested skeletons] you do one extra point of cold damage. Because of various caps on the damage the skill lets you do it's my opinion that it's not really worth taking.

Archery does about 20% extra damage with no cap that I'm aware of. Basic enlightenment on a L20 hero [to me] is much more valueable as it gives a reasonably nice bonus in attribute points.

I don't intend to do any in depth testing until we get a map editor though. At that point, if there are still questions, then I intend to play around with things a lot.

This sort of test can tell us if things like is Dark Magic are really useful / just HOW useful is summonning magic / etc.

As far as a Necro build I'm still happy with Necromancy, Logistics, Dark Magic, Summoning Magic, and Offense as my core skills. Even though it is boring it should still be effective.

Mod Note: Edit button...

[zhuge]

Collected some data on Cold Steel.
Markal is L20, 2/12/11/2 with Expert Attack and Battle Frenzy and Cold Steel

Code: Select all

Attacker	Defender	Damage	Cold	Cold/Damage %
Lich	EarthElem	400	19	4,75
Lich	EarthElem	447	21	4,697986577
Lich	EarthElem	758	36	4,749340369
Lich	EarthElem	414	20	4,830917874
Lich	EarthElem	408	19	4,656862745

SkelArch	EarthElem	250	12	4,8
SkelArch	EarthElem	252	12	4,761904762
SkelArch	EarthElem	268	13	4,850746269
SkelArch	EarthElem	248	12	4,838709677
SkelArch	EarthElem	266	13	4,887218045

VampLord	EarthElem	469	22	4,690831557
VampLord	EarthElem	433	21	4,849884527
VampLord	EarthElem	499	24	4,809619238

SkelArch	Hydra	436	40	9,174311927
Lich	Hydra	279	25	8,960573477
VampLord	Hydra	432	39	9,027777778

Lich	Cavalier	264	24	9,090909091
SkelArch	Cavalier	186	17	9,139784946
VampLord	Cavalier	322	29	9,00621118
Lich	Cavalier	273	25	9,157509158
				
SkelArch	Archmage	1453	132	9,084652443
Lich	Titan	399	36	9,022556391
Lich	Archmage	504	46	9,126984127
VampLord	MstrGrem	612	56	9,150326797
Spectre	Djinn	1242	113	9,098228663
BoneDrag	RakhRani	1085	99	9,124423963
VampLord	SteelGolm	224	5	2,232142857
SkelArch	Titan	827	75	9,068923821
Lich	Titan	375	34	9,066666667

Lich	SteelGolm	982	24	2,443991853
Lich	MstrGrem	617	56	9,076175041
SkelArch 	SteelGolm	1856	45	2,424568966
SkelArch 	SteelGolm	328	8	2,43902439
				
SkelArch	IronGolm	348	17	4,885057471
SkelArch	IronGolm	380	18	4,736842105
Lich	IronGolm	515	25	4,854368932
Lich	IronGolm	507	24	4,733727811
Lich	IronGolm	468	22	4,700854701
Wraith	IronGolm	1175	56	4,765957447
VampLord	IronGolm	645	31	4,80620155

EDIT: Apparently the final strike on a stack displays the Cold damage differently. Perhaps it calculates based on actual hps taken away even though the damage done is more. So I've edited the data above

EDIT2: Hmm, notwithstanding Magic Proof special abilities by creatures like Earth Elemental and Steel Golem, most of the data seems to fall into 9.0-9.2% which could be due to rounding factors.
Also Cold Steel does NO damage at all to Obsidian Gargoyles which have Immunity to Cold which is quite logical

EDIT3: Added more data on Golems.

[Alamar]

The high end cap of roughly 11 points of damage gets you one point of cold seems to be holding.

I'm not sure but I suspect that the number of defenders / HP of defenders / something also plays a part to lessen the damage.

What I don't understand is why have so many different types of caps. I would think that 1 point of cold for every 11 points of scaled damage would be perfectly acceptable in general.

[zhuge]

Ok, normal damage for Cold Steel appears to be around 9.0-9.2% of regular damage inflicted (or about 11 points of damage gets you one point of cold as Alamar stated, which is more or less the same).

Magic Proof 50% for Iron Golems and Earth Elementals drop this to about 4.6-4.9%

Magic Proof 75% for Steel Golems drop this to about 2.2-2.5%

Obsidian Gargoyles are immune.


So Cold Steel is worth roughly 2 added stat points in Attack. The Attack skill only benefits melee and the Archery ability only benefits ranged. Cold Steel adds to both just like stat points.
I suppose if you drop Tactics, you could go Battle Frenzy, Archery and Cold Steel all of which will boost damage. Of course whether a 9% damage boost is worth the price of Tactics is debatable and dependent on the situation.

Comments/corrections welcome.

[Alamar]

Ok, normal damage for Cold Steel appears to be around 9.0-9.2% of regular damage inflicted (or about 11 points of damage gets you one point of cold as Alamar stated, which is more or less the same).

Magic Proof 50% for Iron Golems and Earth Elementals drop this to about 4.6-4.9%

Magic Proof 75% for Steel Golems drop this to about 2.2-2.5%

Obsidian Gargoyles are immune.

Comments/corrections welcome.

Good job.

[cornellian]

So Cold Steel is actually worth something, it can have the effect of +2 attack? Hmm, interesting..

[kingcomrade]

I'm not really sure what that guy's problem is. If he thinks what I wrote is entirely "take vlad, get skelly archers, use raise undead, go roxxor" then he has trouble reading. I gave a pretty clean synopsis of several spells and units that are important to Necromancer heroes, and what skills to avoid and which skills benefit you.

There's considerably more there. By the way, if you find what I wrote lacking, perhaps instead of doing nothing but complain you might like to contribute something? After all, if you've got a better idea I'm willing to hear it.

I did stress Raise Dead's power because quite frankly it is an overpowered spell (Nival's fault, not mine) and gives you huge advantages. I don't know what your mysterious form of "strategy" is but it seems to me that you're just upset that it isn't more complicated than anything else.

[Gus]

it's not "that guy", there have been a couple of other fellows who agreed with me.

as far as the "shut up if you can't do better"-argument goes... well, i can't design a car, but if you come here and present your car design, and it sucks, my own competence in the matter is highly irrelevant. In other words, just because _i_ can't (or don't want to) do better, doesn't make your work any better.

instead of writing things like that, what about you develop your so-called guide?

[kingcomrade]

it's not "that guy", there have been a couple of other fellows who agreed with me.

Well, aren't we just 2 cool 4 skool.

as far as the "shut up if you can't do better"-argument goes

I don't recall making such an argument. Nobody asked you to write your own guide.

instead of writing things like that, what about you develop your so-called guide?

Because there's a troll under my thread. As a matter of fact I have improved the guide at some admin's request and unless he rejects it, it'll be on the front page in a few days.

You yourself just admitted that you both have nothing to contribute and wouldn't contribute anyways, so why are you even bothering me? You haven't given me a word of constructive criticism, just written "lawl tihs sux lawl" a couple times.