The Wraith - is it underrated?

[Gus]

You mean, except the fact that they don't get to retaliate, which is, incidentally, a hell of an advantage ? ^^

Not that much, as you have to be next to them already to do it. It's rather a "I have 1 more Wraith so might as well use it" ability.

Sorry, i don't get what you mean =/
But if you're saying that the Wraith should kill at least as many level7 as it does now, WITHOUT experiencing retal, then we disagree, that's for sure =)

[ThunderTitan]

I'm saing that the lack of retal isn't as good as you make it sound as you only kill one unit. It's a good skill when you have few of them, but if you have more (killing 3+ lvl 7's) it's better to just attack and take the retal then let them attack you with only 1 less creature.

50 Wraiths should be able to kill more then 1 creature. They could make it 25% of the damage they would inflict normaly, with a min of 1 creature killed at the least.

[zhuge]

Well perhaps 1 in 5 might be a bit too strong. I maintain that Harm Touch should do some decent damage though. If it dealt about say half the damage as it normally would that would still seem quite weak to me.
You can of course waste away enemy retal first with any 1 unit stack.

I think ultimately it depends how badly you think Wraiths need to be L7 killers. If you want to make the ability halfway useful in that regard, some significant damage should be applied.
Right now the ability is almost useless in many situations and Wraiths are not exactly cheap L6 units.

And thanks for the link, TT

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I think that the best thing would be along these lines:

The ability should be something like a 25% strength, no-retaliation attack that kills a minimum of 1 creature. This way, it is still useful against low-level troops, and very large stacks would still have a reason to use it (sacrifice damage to geta no-retal attack)

Something like the H3 mighty gorgon death-stare would only work if you made this the effect of a normal attack. If you want the harm touch to be able to kill more creatures based on stack size, then I think the above idea works better. (recall that the death-stare caused ADDITIONAL kills beyond the normal attack, not in leiu of it.)

[ThunderTitan]

The ability should be something like a 25% strength, no-retaliation attack that kills a minimum of 1 creature. This way, it is still useful against low-level troops, and very large stacks would still have a reason to use it (sacrifice damage to geta no-retal attack)

Precisly what i suggested.
Right now it's only usefull when the Wraiths numbers fall below what can kill 2 lvl7's and you can only use them after you engaged the enemy. So basicaly only when it's a 1vs1 between the Wraith and it's enemy, something that won't happen often.

[Gus]

I agree with that as well.

TT, when i said that "no retal" was pretty powerful, i was dealing with the proposal to make Harm Touch as efficient as (or even better than) a regular attack against level 7. Of course, Harm Touch as it is is not bad, but becomes useless quickly. But i was talking about the proposal to buff it up, reminding you guys that you don't get a retal when using this ability, so don't make it too strong. 25% with one kill for sure sounds quite ok.

[ThunderTitan]

But i was talking about the proposal to buff it up, reminding you guys that you don't get a retal when using this ability, so don't make it too strong.

I never forgot that. You shouldn't have called it "a hell of an advantage". It's not like other creatures don't have No-Retal, and they don't have to be already near the enemy to do it.

[soupnazii]

i think the perfect solution would be to use exactly the same formula as the mighty gorgon in H3 (only a bit modified for level 6's {or was the Gorgon lvl6??... doesnt matter}). unless of course they plan on introducin either Gorgon or gorgon-like creature in expansion with that ability in which case they shouild just buff it up like you guys said. or another thing they could do is just change it to "Vorpal Scythe" and get it over with...

[cornellian]

If they do it HoMM III Mighty Gorgon style then Wraiths will be too powerful to handle. Giving it a %10 death rate like Gorgons in a level 6 creature, in a game where large mp maps can end up having several hundred level6 creatures in a relatively short time is asking for another paladin disaster.. Imagine 200 wraiths killing 20 black dragons instantly no matter what the enemy hero's defence might be.. Necromancers are already powerful, I don't see any reason to buff them this much..

However I agree that Harm Touch is useless except for <5 vs <5 situations which are rare.. It can be modified to be either a draining attack that
i) may eliminate all bonuses that creature gets from the hero
ii) may freeze the target for a period of time
iii) may be a fear attack that forces the creature to flee unless it is undead..
After all in the description it says these guys are the embodiment of Death, it should frighten those who engage it..

... or it can also be made to give a bonus damage to the normal attack, a certain percentage of the total HP that stack of wraiths have.. Say, a 10% percent would mean an extra 10 damage for every single wraith, applied after attack/defence calculations, so it would still be a threat to a high defence enemy hero.. This way they wouldn't totally destroy low tiers, which they are already powerful against; and they wouldn't instantly kill 10 weeks worth of level7s...

[ThunderTitan]

However I agree that Harm Touch is useless except for <5 vs <5 situations which are rare.. It can be modified to be either a draining attack that
i) may eliminate all bonuses that creature gets from the hero
ii) may freeze the target for a period of time
iii) may be a fear attack that forces the creature to flee unless it is undead..

Only ii) sounds like it might be worth losing a turn when you're so near the enemy. i) is only worth it if the hero is high lvl, and yours is not.

[cornellian]

And as of now both seem to be more useful than harm touch aren't they?

[ThunderTitan]

And as of now both seem to be more useful than harm touch aren't they?

Not really. At least I can use my last Wraith to kill his last lvl7.

[cornellian]

If you are down to your last men then you both lost actually...

[Metal Wolf]

Hey ThunderTitan,
How come you're a "leprechaun"?

[ThunderTitan]

Hey ThunderTitan,
How come you're a "leprechaun"?

Found a Pot O'Gold™. And a funny hat.

[Gus]

I never forgot that. You shouldn't have called it "a hell of an advantage". It's not like other creatures don't have No-Retal, and they don't have to be already near the enemy to do it.

what's with the "having to be near" thing you keep coming up with? Harm Touch is only usable when the enemy is in range, not when you're near. So, apart from Shooters, all creatures must be able to move near their target to use their "no retal". I don't see how THIS "no retal" would be different.

And so, i confirm my point: making Harm Touch kill as much as a regular attack, while it is a no-retal attack, would be way overpowered. Just give the Wraith no-retal instead, it would be way simpler.

[ThunderTitan]

what's with the "having to be near" thing you keep coming up with? Harm Touch is only usable when the enemy is in range, not when you're near.

Damn, ur right. So it works just like no retal. It's stupid that it's off when there's no one in range.

[Gus]

It's stupid that it's off when there's no one in range.

they must have thought it'd speed up the gameplay.

=D

[PhoenixReborn]

My biggest problem with the wraith is that it is a walker when it doesn't have feet. It should be able to float, visually it doesn't have feet that I've noticed.

I think harm touch is fine as is, Gorgons are too strong. In combat wraiths have a very solid attack and their defense is ok. No problem here. I'm not crazy about the weak spectral dragon but I guess it balances the skeleton archers.

[vicheron]

I would just make it so that Harm Touch would use up less initiative if there are more Wraiths. Reduce initiative use by around 1% per Wraith so with 10 Wraiths you'd use up 10 initiative when you Harm Touch, with 50 Wraiths you'd use up 7 initiative when you Harm Touch, with 100 Wraiths you'd use up 4 initiative when you Harm Touch.