The Wraith - is it underrated?

[Metal Wolf]

I've read in a few places (including "Age of Heroes") all kinds of negative stuff about the wraith - that its among the weaker 6th lvl creatures and stuff...
On my part, I totally disagree - despite its special ability, which could have been better, I think that the wraith is better than the average 6th lvl creature - excellent attack/defense rating, excellent dmg., good initiative - and of course terrifying visuals! (though it doesnt effect its skill in battle, of course... )
So what do you think?

[Orfinn]

Agree.

I think the wraith is a worthy creature, noticed that the A.I used the harm touch ability every time against my thougher more durable units like dragons and treants. If you lack in powerful spells and units, you have a couple of wraiths, I promise you they are especially good against, let say ancient treants, which 1: Dont have a to high dmg rating and 2: Since they have a great deal of HP and comes in plenty with the horde dwelling, the wraiths can pick em down easly, like 20 wraiths against 20 a-treants, the wraiths will win. I know the Pit Lords can do the same thing, but they are alot slower, low initiative and they primarly should focus on spells than melee, melee as last resort or primary with teleport assault.

Since most necro units are weaker in comparison to other towns, the wraiths are an exception and nothing to grunt at, they should not be underestimated.

[TomVenom]

____ Rakshasa__Shadow___Paladin___Pit_______Wraith____Ancient
____ Raja______Matriarch__________Lord_______________Treant

Att... : 25________20________24________22________26________19
Def.. : 20________20________24________21________24________29
Dam : 23-30_____17-27______20-30_____13-31 _____25-30_____10-20
HP... : 140_______90________100_______120_______100_______181
Spd. : 6_________4_________8_________4_________6_________6
Ini... : 8_________10________12________8_________11________7
Sht.. : / _________4_________/_________ / _________/_________/
Man. : / _________14________/_________13 ________/_________/
#/W : 2_________2_________2_________2_________2_________2
Cst... : 1770______1700______1550______1850______1800_____1500

[djtc]

I've never noticed how strong Wraiths were "on the paper".

Still, on a practical base, I find them less useful in a battle than other lvl6 (especially because they lack of really good abilites, harm touch doesn't mean much).

And except from A-Treants, they would probably be beaten by other same-level creatures in a same-number duel (especially Rakshasa). But I'm just guessing haven't tested those battles yet.

[Gaidal Cain]

Wraiths are quite OK. The only thing they lack is a speciality that's useful when there's more than a few of them in the stack. And some fashion sense.

[dixing]

I remember how the computer liked to torment be as he kept using raise dead on his wights then using them to harm touch my phoenix in academy campaign :O
such a nuisance

[zhuge]

Yep, just make the ability more useful. I don't think it needs a massive tweak in terms of raw stats.

Currently it falls behind Rakshasa Rajas as a tank because it lacks the no retaliation ability and has less hps. It falls behind Paladins in terms of damage because of the Joust ability (which btw it's the Joust ability which needs a nerf rather than adjusting Wraiths up to match)

A properly thought out Harm Touch would remedy this somewhat.
Autokilling 1 creature for every 5 Wraiths in the stack (without regular damage) or autokilling 1 creatures for 10 Wraiths in the stack (with regular damage) would be a start IMHO.

I can understand that people would prefer making it stronger as Necro has traditionally had strong L4-6 creatures to compensate for a weak L7.
However, in H5 we have a horde building for the Bone Dragon providing partial compensation and also a more potent upgraded L1 in Skeleton Archers so I would think we probably don't need to hike its raw stats much further.

[ThunderTitan]

The Wraith is fine, it's the ability that isn't. It works for Pit Fiend because it's part of their usual attack. Wasting a turn to kill one creature when you have over 10 of them is rather pointless. Harm Touch should be affected by the # of Wraiths.

And Joust definatly needs some nerfing, otherwise the Paladin's fine.

[Jolly Joker]

I cannot agree with the special attack being useless as soon as there are 10 Wraiths. Sylvan and Haven heroes have a high Defense rating while Necro hero has a low attack rating. Furthermore both of them have Light magic AND creatures that can cast light spells with good effect. (Mass) Endurance makes things rather awkward against them and attack-defense difference of -20 and more for Wraiths attacking level 6 and 7 Sylvan and Haven unit are pretty common. Figure in expert defense for both and you will see even 20 Wraiths struggle to kill ONE Dragon or Angel with the regular attack. So this is far from useless (as isn't the spell removing effect of the harm touch).
That said, some rule with a chance to kill more than one unit depending on the numbers, if said number would be higher than, say 15 might be in order. In that case the Pit Lords would have to have THEIR special altered as well, wouldn't they?

[zhuge]

Admittedly I haven't really been crunching numbers on that matter. Just going by feel. But let's crunch some as you say and see how it turns out.

Wraith Attack 26, average damage 27.5
Expected Damage for 10 Wraiths
Angels (D27, hp180): 261
Archangels (D31, hp220): 220
Green Dragon (D25, hp200): 288
Emerald Dragon (D27, hp200): 261
Shadow Dragon (D24, hp200): 302
Black Dragon (D30, hp240): 229

I think this shows 10 Wraiths are already well able to kill 1 Angel/Dragon with their regular attack with probably the Black Dragon being an exception, which makes their special remarkably unhelpful.
With an adjustment in Harm Touch to 1 kill per 5 (no regular damage) that would bring their damage Vs the above L7s to 2 kill instead of 1+. Not that great a difference really.

As for hero skills/spells and attack defence considerations, I would prefer to leave them out for the moment as there is always a counter to that. Expert Defence being partially negated by Expert Attack, Mass Endurance being countered by Mass Vulnerability and so on.

In any case, the special will only really be useful against L7s and perhaps L6s to a much lesser degree. Compare that with specials of Rakhsasas and Paladins which apply to creatures of all tiers and I would think it would not turn out overpowered.

I don't mind letting the Pit Lord get a small hike either on the same grounds.

[DaemianLucifer]

It should work something like the gorgons death stare.For example,each wraith adds 20% chance to kill another creature,with 1 as the starting base.So one wraith always kills 1 creature,2 have 20% chance to kill 2 creatures,6 always kill 2 creatures,7 have 20% chance to kill three,etc.

[Omega_Destroyer]

Wraiths are fun to fight when you summon phoniexes. Nothing like having your uber powerful creature killed with one simple attack.

[soupnazii]

i think the wraiths are more or less great and dont need to many changes. i have only one complaint which sometimes even keeps me from getting the upgrade: WHY THE FCK ARE THEY GLOWING?!?!?! I mean if they absolutely had to give them them some color, why couldnt they just add some green gas or something coming from their hood and hands and the bottom and maybe change their robes to some lighter shade of grey instead of that toxic green? it would be a little repetitive of the zombie but it wouldnt look like disco night.

[Omega_Destroyer]

You refuse to get an upgrade because the creature is glowing?

[Gus]

With an adjustment in Harm Touch to 1 kill per 5 (no regular damage) that would bring their damage Vs the above L7s to 2 kill instead of 1+. Not that great a difference really.

You mean, except the fact that they don't get to retaliate, which is, incidentally, a hell of an advantage ? ^^

[asandir]

i really like them, once they join the battle then do significant damage, and hey, the scythe just looks great!!

[soupnazii]

You refuse to get an upgrade because the creature is glowing?

i didnt say i refuse, just that unless it is absolutely vital for my victory/survival it is the last upgrade i take with necropolis.

[zhuge]

With an adjustment in Harm Touch to 1 kill per 5 (no regular damage) that would bring their damage Vs the above L7s to 2 kill instead of 1+. Not that great a difference really.

You mean, except the fact that they don't get to retaliate, which is, incidentally, a hell of an advantage ? ^^

Right you are! Certainly a big advantage there and an oversight on my part that I forgot to mention it.
Still I would prefer to have a Harm Touch that actually kills slightly more L7s than they otherwise would normally. That was my point. The actual figures whether 1 for 5, 1 for 10, 1 for 15, using the Death Stare system as per Mighty Gorgons as DL stated can be slowly adjusted.

P/S - would be nice to have QQD chip in with his Mighty Gorgon Death Stare stats and formula which he did a long time ago and his thoughts on it too.

PP/S - btw, what's a Galactic Gargle Blaster ??

[ThunderTitan]

You mean, except the fact that they don't get to retaliate, which is, incidentally, a hell of an advantage ? ^^

Not that much, as you have to be next to them already to do it. It's rather a "I have 1 more Wraith so might as well use it" ability.

PP/S - btw, what's a Galactic Gargle Blaster ??

Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster actualy!

[soupnazii]

you mean kill more lvl 7s than lower levels? cause maybe you meant lvl ones...