Skills and Abilities rant!

[Jolly Joker]

Not if you give always the choice between improving an already existing skill or picking a new one.

No. It's about ABILITIES, not skills.

I think I didn't explain myself properly here. I don't want to change the way skills and abilities are offered. I just want to remove the limitation of 5 skills and 3 abilities per skill.

so basically, if your hero is level 9 he could either have 3 expert skills or 1 expert skill and 6 basic skills or any other combination you wanted, not having to be limited by the 5 skills limit.

You don't understand the point. If you are always qualified to get ALL abilities related to a skill, no matter how many you have taken, the abilities offered might be VERY annoying, because you may be offered a ton of abilities you just don't want - for a very long time.

[Bandobras Took]

Great, now we've got someone suggesting that there shouldn't even be a limit on Basic Skills? Why don't we just save time and give every hero Expert Level in every skill and every subability and their ultimate skill at level one? It would certainly cut down on the chances of not getting that vital skill you really want, and you wouldn't even need a skill chart.

[Ethric]

I for one think that, in the context of H5's system, the limit to how many basic skills you can have (5+ the faction one) is fine. But then the 5x3 slots for the secondary stuff could be freed up so you could fill them as you saw fit based on what basic skills you otherwise have.

The ones you'd be offered at level up would be limited to the ones you have the prerequisites for, obviously. If it should then become a problem that you have to many choices and thus "never" get what you want it could be tweaked so that more secondary skills are based on others making the possible choices at any one time manageble.

[Da' vane]

Poor documentation and that you can only have 3 of each. I don't like that limitation. I think it would be better if you allowed a hero to delve deep into the ablities of one or two skillsets, and get as many of them as he has the prerequiites for. Afterall, that's what people often do when they're good at something: they try to get even better, learn more, spcialise. Here you're basically told that sorry, your brain's full on logistics-related knowledge, so why not improve your knowledge on the dark arts instead (for example).

You might say that it's a good way to make sure your hero isn't rendered useless by only knowing one type of skills, but that's not a type of babysitting I care for in a game. And that also branches over in something else, namely that I think you should be allowed more than one hero per army. That way, you can have 2 or 3 specialists, instead of one generalist.

There is someone else where who gets what I'm complaining about.

However, I must admit that I thought there were more abilities for each skill (9 rather than 5, for some reason - I think I counted Skills as abilities). Saying that, one has to ask why they didn't put other abilities in, and why they only gave a single perk in each skill the advanced abilities. I mean, when you have abilities like dark revelation and graduation, there's lots of similar abilities you could have from other skill - like a bonus to your Hero's attack from attack, and a bonus to Defence from defence. Maybe a free minor artifact from luck, or some free resources. Even free creatures if they wanted. The whole "one-time bonus" thing could have provided a whole plethora of abilities...

[Da' vane]

There are two main fixes to "not getting what you want" when you level up under the system without limits.

a) Offer more than 2 skills and 2 abilities. More choice means more getting what you want. In fact, should an EP add extra skills and abilites, you might just want to offer more per level up anyway, just so you can see the new stuff!

b) Restrict the list of abilities so that it works like skills does: offers a new skill or upgrade an existing skill. In this case, you get the highest ability you can qualify for or another perk.

[Gaidal Cain]

Saying that, one has to ask why they didn't put other abilities in, and why they only gave a single perk in each skill the advanced abilities.

This I can agree with. It would be more interesting to have advanced abilities that excluded others. Even if there's a large number of abilities, some of which only seems as filler, I guess one always asks for more.

I mean, when you have abilities like dark revelation and graduation, there's lots of similar abilities you could have from other skill - like a bonus to your Hero's attack from attack, and a bonus to Defence from defence. Maybe a free minor artifact from luck, or some free resources. Even free creatures if they wanted. The whole "one-time bonus" thing could have provided a whole plethora of abilities...

No more of the boring +2 to a primary skill, please. There are so many other great bonuses that should be possible.

[ThunderTitan]

The whole "one-time bonus" thing could have provided a whole plethora of abilities...

I hate that one. It's so frivolous.

[DaemianLucifer]

Those one time bonuses are crap.Especially the 1000 gold and one time mana.Those that add primary abilitieas are ok,but could be way better.And the one giving you an additional level is just a space eater because it gives you +1 stat and you need more XP for the next skill/ability.

[Da' vane]

Apparently, they are okay enough for Nival to include them...

[DaemianLucifer]

Apparently, they are okay enough for Nival to include them...

So is no caravans and unflagable windmills,but that doesnt mean its ok with the fans.

[King Imp]

What really aggravates the problem is that there is no prompt at a witch's hut. I end up never using them because you could end up with a skill that doesn't help you at all.

Just another lazy exclusion by Nival. I always save my game just before going to a witch's hut … if I don't like the skill, I reload … but people shouldn't have to do this.

Agreed 100%.

[asandir]

What really aggravates the problem is that there is no prompt at a witch's hut. I end up never using them because you could end up with a skill that doesn't help you at all.

Just another lazy exclusion by Nival. I always save my game just before going to a witch's hut … if I don't like the skill, I reload … but people shouldn't have to do this.

Agreed 100%.

yep, really frustrating, i also save first, getting a good skill is really beneficial in the early game, but not if it's one you really don't want

[Jolly Joker]

You COULD try the Hut with a secondary hero, could you? Just as well as you COULD try a really sensitive guard stack with a secondary hero, whether for example "horde" in this case means more like 55 or something like 95. Since this costs a hero a secondary SCOUTING hero would be even better. But of course save/reload is much more, uh, convenient.
Not in MP play, though.

[asandir]

indeed not

was thinking about SP, haven't got into MP yet (too many other priorities in life )

[Da' vane]

But it's already been established that the fans don't count...

Otherwise, they'd accept what was good with H4, and we'd have creature XP from WoG incorporated in there too...

It almost makes me wish that the WoG and Equilibris teams could have got together and scraped the cash for the HoMM license... they'd probably have done a better job between them than Nival/Ubisoft...

[The Frostraven]

Great, now we've got someone suggesting that there shouldn't even be a limit on Basic Skills? Why don't we just save time and give every hero Expert Level in every skill and every subability and their ultimate skill at level one? It would certainly cut down on the chances of not getting that vital skill you really want, and you wouldn't even need a skill chart.

Duh...

Having basic everything takes some well fifteen levels-- but could be doable with a cap of number of skill points per hero, so that he could never specialize in all skills...

Skills are a fine way to make every hero more unique.

Say, what if there were more skills, and more advanced abilities instead..?

For instance;
If:
Basic Attack only work for melee, and the abilities granted by Attack were melee battle-oriented
Then we would have the skills Basic Berserk (skill replacement for Blood Frenzy) and Basic Archery freed up...
Each having their own six abilities, whereof 2 abilities which require the Advanced and 1 ability that require Expert skill level.
Or that could been 2 basic abilities, 2 advanced abilities and 2 expert abilities... In the latter case, there is two paths where one basic ability advancement leads to speed, and the second basic advancement to raised Attack.

Ultimate skills could be reached upon maxing hero's starting skills, and two non-conflicting skills.

Defense and Light magic (as well as leadership- at least 19 levels) lead to Guardian Angel (Defensive)
while
Attack and Light Magic would lead to an offensive Guardian Angel which Kills off one of the strongest creatures in enemy's army in each combat.

Meh...

Maxed Archery and Logistics trees (as well as whatever witch skill) leads to Assailant -- Shoot and Run for all ranged attackers in army
while
Archery and Dark magic (and witch skill) leads to Blinding Arrows.
Dark Magic and Summoning Magic (and witch skill) leads to Stir the Fallen -- allows raising of dead enemies to fight for you for this battle only.

I would like to have seen three paths to three different mutually exclusive "ultimate abilities" which again are based on the base class of the hero, which in return require two very "hero-of-this-class-like" skills to be maxed with three of their abilities...

Again, each ultimate ability would be shared by forces of similar disposition, making each class have an option of three ultimate abilities, whereas one is *ment* for the class, and two other which are ment for heroes of similar disposition, on each side on them on the septagon...

Ban certain skills for certain towns-- no light magic for necromancer etc.

That's the changes I would have made anyways-- After playing the game for a month without realizing that there was any such thing *as* "ultimate abilities"

[Bandobras Took]

But it's already been established that the fans don't count...

Otherwise, they'd accept what was good with H4, and we'd have creature XP from WoG incorporated in there too...

That's it! It's only the fans who like everything in H4 and WoG that should count! Those of us with differing opinions should be completely ignored!

I'm not sure that you see the rampant hypocrisy in your statement.

Never mind that we've now got scripted town destruction/town type changing, and that's one of the first things WoG introduced.

With this you've gone from trying to contribute to the game to complaining for the sake of complaining. There are others on the forums who are far more adept at that particular kind of spam.

It almost makes me wish that the WoG and Equilibris teams could have got together and scraped the cash for the HoMM license... they'd probably have done a better job between them than Nival/Ubisoft...

Let them. I could wish for a team of nine rabid rhinos to make Heroes 5, and say "they'd probably have done a better job."

But until they have, it's empty speculation, not anything constructive or useful.

[Bandobras Took]

Great, now we've got someone suggesting that there shouldn't even be a limit on Basic Skills? Why don't we just save time and give every hero Expert Level in every skill and every subability and their ultimate skill at level one? It would certainly cut down on the chances of not getting that vital skill you really want, and you wouldn't even need a skill chart.

Duh...

Yes, that was my point as well.

Skills are a fine way to make every hero more unique.

Say, what if there were more skills, and more advanced abilities instead..?

For instance;
If:
Basic Attack only work for melee, and the abilities granted by Attack were melee battle-oriented
Then we would have the skills Basic Berserk (skill replacement for Blood Frenzy) and Basic Archery freed up...
Each having their own six abilities, whereof 2 abilities which require the Advanced and 1 ability that require Expert skill level.
Or that could been 2 basic abilities, 2 advanced abilities and 2 expert abilities... In the latter case, there is two paths where one basic ability advancement leads to speed, and the second basic advancement to raised Attack.

(...snip)

Ban certain skills for certain towns-- no light magic for necromancer etc.

I'd say that banning skills for certain towns while increasing the number of generic options tends to make heroes more similar, not less.

That's the changes I would have made anyways-- After playing the game for a month without realizing that there was any such thing *as* "ultimate abilities"

There's that documentation complaint again.

[OliverFA]

Those one time bonuses are crap.Especially the 1000 gold and one time mana.

Right now I agree with you. But imagine it was, not 1,000 gold but, let's say, 100,000 gold or even 1,000,000. That would make it a valuable bonus. Specially in a resource lacking map.

[Ethric]

You COULD try the Hut with a secondary hero, could you?

Or they COULD have given you an OPTION on whether you WANTED the skill or not.

I mean, is the witch grabbing your hero by the neck and forcing the skill into his brain, is that's what's going on? Seems to me, as it says she teaches you the skill, it implies a voluntary action of getting taught.