HOMM 4: How do I beat my friend online, Life vs Chaos!?

[Black Ghost]

Hero1 = Priest (GM Life)
Hero2 = Knight (GM Tactics)
Hero3 = Priest (GM Resurrect) replaces Squires
Hero4 = Druid (GM Nature) replaces Crossbowmen
Hero5 = Mage (GM Order) replaces Pikemen
Stack6 = Angels
Stack7 = Monks

LOL, Tell me how are you going to have 5 GM heroes? You need special scenario full of altars, trees, concervatories, quest huts giving XP, power Up locations, colosseums which normally arent so comon&plenty...

With out them XP will be divided among 5 heroes, so 5 at 10lev. have same XP points as 1 at 19lev. [approximately] and further you'll find it hard to develope them more. Additionally the won't have GM, only E as I suppose.

In normal conditions max. 3 heroes is reasonable. So against Chaos the best would be IMO:

1) knight -leadership isn't necessary
(could know B.life or B.chaos)- tactic is the best support against strong chaos forces, enables our units to act first, than bless/f-strike/haste

2) priest
(forget about resurrection, if you win the battle you win the war, chaos has low growth)- try to defend him as possible, p/o/immortality, resurrct him with angels, give his max. speed to act as first;
Mass Chaos Ward is essential, use also Mass bless, Prayer

3) mage
(forget about charm)
forgetfullness, hpnotise on medusa, berserk or hypnotise on efreeti, Mass slow

4)angels

5)angels

6) crusaders

7) crusaders/ or pikeman (IMO another crusader stack will be better)

Priest & Mage should be max. granted with m-resistance and safely placed

Crusarders are IMO better than monks against dragon/medusa/heroes

Angels are awesome, 4 champion growth wont help you much- it's much weaker in addition


As for priest [should act always first, than mage] firstly cast M-Chaos Ward if don't have- prayer or mass bless
AS for mage hypnotise efreeti (usually chosen against life) and will be support agains dragon(they got fire resistance)&medusa . If player has nightmares, hypnotise/forgetful medusa or hypno/blind nightmares (depend of medusa's number)
Try to destroy first the spellcaster and attack medusas (if they're numerous) or dragons with hypnotised units.

You HAVE to be quicker than chaos and use his forces against him. This is the best way to win

Oh, and as for sanctuary it depends on sityation, byt IMO sucks agains chaos, better to resurrect or bless our units.

[Kaezin]

>>I don't think you finished that thought, but the point is taken. Bad luck >>on power-ups happens to us all.

How do you avoid getting something like Leadership or Summoning from a skill shrine, then? Those things always seem to give me the least appropriate skill possible.

[gravyluvr]

>>I don't think you finished that thought, but the point is taken. Bad luck >>on power-ups happens to us all.

How do you avoid getting something like Leadership or Summoning from a skill shrine, then? Those things always seem to give me the least appropriate skill possible.

You just fork the skills (don't take the free skill - or come back much later to it).

I admit I probably would have ignored the GM Resurrect skill as well, since I like the Life Magic.

Just how much do you get effected by having both Nature and Order in your army? I still would like to have a druid and mage but I never realized it would effect as much as you folks are saying.

As for splitting stacks (Angels and Crusaders/Monks), I'd rather have more magic heroes and keep the creature stack as large as possible.

(The multiple factions question is a real one... I play nature and will have a pathfinder along with Life and Nature... should I be ignoring Chaos heroes entirely?)

[Tao Jones]

>Almost everything in the game has usefulness, in one way or another.

Not really.

That seems odd. If I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying that there are many aspects of the game that have -no- usefulness, in any situation. I'd be interested to hear what else you think is ignorable.

Frankly, I think you are incorrect in that assertion, but we may agree to disagree if you like. Certainly, there are situations in which a certain skill, spell, or item aren't -as- helpful. Just as certainly, there will be situations in which they are -more- helpful.

Not every projected battle has a clear saddlepoint, if I may borrow a term from games theory. Seeking them is wise. Believing you have found all of them is probably more of a mathematical exercise than most posters here are willing and/or able to pursue.

>Besides, you can make a hero focussed on Summoning skill, and have another Nature hero for spells.

That's just a waste, in my opinion, even in equilibris. It produces a few creatures that will never make a difference in endfights.

I'd say that depends a great deal on when and where the endfight occured, the makeup of the two armies, and various other factors.

If I may be allowed a personal observation, you seem to use the words "always" and "never" an awful lot. This is often a symptom of rigidity. Perhaps you should try and be more flexible in your thinking. It's possible that more flexibility could lead you to an effective strategy or tactic you hadn't considered before.

You need 11 nature skills to get to GM summoning, that is very close to GM nature (and it is already master nature). Now if you ask me which one would I have - I don't think that's a question.

Of course if there is free XP on the map for 213 heroes, you can create a few summoners too.

Perhaps your sarcasm is misdirected. It seems we have enough XP on the board for three or four GM heroes in the scenario suggested by the two OPs. My understanding was that we were working within those confines. My implication was that the player would have a choice. I personally would choose to pursue an Order caster instead, but the player may choose differently, and still have a path to success.

> Bad luck on power-ups happens to us all.

The point is that it DOESN'T, if you develop your skills carefully.

I'm sorry if I misunderstand, but I've often been faced with the "sucky three" choices. If I've developed a hero to Master Life magic, and I'm given a choice on level-up between Basic Combat, Basic Ressurection, and Basic Order magic, what options do I have? If there's a way to avoid this situation, I'll adopt it immediately.

And don't just take any advice. For example, forget about GM resurrection, that skill is a waste too.

Perhaps not. I seem to recall the mention of a stout neutral stack guarding the access point between the two realms. If the Life general were to pursue a strategy of early contact, Ressurection could be the difference between having seven angels at the end fight or having four, in Equi.

It's difficult to tell without knowing the exact situation, of course, but simply declaring it a "waste" in all situations is a bit premature, don't you think?

One final point. In the quote above, you say not to "take just any advice". Apologies are in order if I am wrong, but you seem to be implying that your advice is the only one of worth.

Considering that the OPs have no real way of weighing the value of the advice given other than to explore these options for themselves, you might be better served by saying instead "try it my way, you'll see it's better".

I've never met you on the field of combat, csarmi, but extensive lurking has led me to form a mental picture of you as someone who is a capable opponent with significant confidence in your own way of doing things. Do not let your victories lead you to believe you are always right.

[SmokingBarrel]

Won't the medusas slow the army down too much?

All skills should be useful, I don't think some skills are there for fun. GM ressurection can save you some unts after a battle...

[farbs]

We started to play another game but stopped half way b/c I had to leave, but by the looks of it I'm going to get raped b/c he started off pretty good and got good spells and I started off slowly and had some minor mistakes

[Kaezin]

We're playing a modified version of the map Showdown. The only change between our map and the original is that one side was missing a dragon teacher, which I added in.

Saved game + map

[farbs]

i HATE YOU KAEZIN!!!!!
MAUAHAH

[Gaidal Cain]

That seems odd. If I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying that there are many aspects of the game that have -no- usefulness, in any situation. I'd be interested to hear what else you think is ignorable.

I think the point is that certain things are of such limited usefullness that almost everything else is better. For instance, instead of putting 5 levels into summoning, they could be used to give you one level higher Nature Magic, which would be more beneficial in the endfight.

I'm sorry if I misunderstand, but I've often been faced with the "sucky three" choices. If I've developed a hero to Master Life magic, and I'm given a choice on level-up between Basic Combat, Basic Ressurection, and Basic Order magic, what options do I have? If there's a way to avoid this situation, I'll adopt it immediately.

Considering how the game hands out skills at levelup, that choice you described is extremely unlikely. A priest would always be offered two life skills, and one of these is bound not to be ressurection. Advanced class heroes is another thing, though.

If the Life general were to pursue a strategy of early contact, Ressurection could be the difference between having seven angels at the end fight or having four, in Equi.

So could GM life, and that has the added bonus of being useful in the end fight.

[csarmi]

>>That seems odd. If I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying that
>>there are many aspects of the game that have -no- usefulness, in any
>>situation. I'd be interested to hear what else you think is ignorable.

Well, you can make a useless statement like "everything has its usefulness". The problem is that it won't mean anything.

What I claim is that a lot of things are almost always useless. This list includes stealth (yes, once, on a very special map it won me the game), resurrection. There are some skills and spells that can be useful, but there would be much better choices and it'll just slow you down.

>>It seems we have enough XP on the board for three or four GM heroes
>>in the scenario suggested by the two OPs.

Well, in that case, taking summoning is a suicide. Unless your opponent plays just as badly.

>>If the Life general were to pursue a strategy of early contact,
>>Ressurection could be the difference between having seven angels at
>>the end fight or having four, in Equi.

yes, and if he used that XP better, they would have GM life now and would win the fight without losses anyways

Anyways, I took a quick look at this map.

First of all, if your opponent is a good player; unless you are VERY lucky, you will never beat him life vs chaos. That's because the map is unbelenced. It has no scouting or tactics altars and no combat huts. That means you won't have a pathfinder and your opponent will. Game over.

(you can't raise a native pathfinder, because you will have -5 morale penalty in the endfight (unless you remove him, but there is not enough XP on the map to afford the waste of a level 10+ hero))

To balance the map, simply put a scouting altar next to the 2nd town, and a tactics altar next to the 3rd town. That should be enough.

I advise you to go to www.toheroes.com and get some tested and balanced map from there. A map very similar to this is Fatal Controversy, I would try it if I were you.

Second, this is clearly a map where you can and you have to build LOTS of heroes.

All of your heroes will get 7000 free XP on the map (would be 10k with chaos towns), a tree of knowledge and you get a free tavern next to the town. In addition, 2nd and 3rd towns are closer. You will have 3 heroes day 1, 4 heroes day 4, 5 heroes day 6 and they will grow fast. GM seems reasonable for me. Build up a pathfinder asap so that you can move fast.

[Black Ghost]

According to my previous post the better idea is B.nature magic for tactican. I've forgotten that Warden gives your troops additional defence
Additionally B nature is simmilar to B.chaos

[csarmi]

Warden would look really cool, but you can't afford not to concentrate on combat and resists. The only exception is maybe going for the Crusader cast, since always 10 morale is a huge bonus.

So you end up with beastmasters, assasins, fireguards, battle magi and paladins. YEs, beastmaster and battle mage is a poor advanced class (their bonus is completely worthless), but you have no choice.

[gravyluvr]

If the Life general were to pursue a strategy of early contact, Ressurection could be the difference between having seven angels at the end fight or having four, in Equi.

So could GM life, and that has the added bonus of being useful in the end fight.[/quote]

Actually, I'll play total hipocrit since I originally brought up (GM Resurrect) for one of the life heroes...

I have found that when fighting neutrals, I have just been using devine Intervention or Resurection (the spell) in order to resurect my creatures in the battles, so I would also try to GM Life ASAP.

Also... When I put GM it was only to tell you there goal.

[Kaezin]

Showdown is a map I got from the ToH pages; it's where I get all the maps from. I realized the map is a great map for multiple heroes after reading on the forums a bit, especially since there are actually 3 trees of knowledge, plus the other 7k free exp.

We'll try some other maps.

[csarmi]

If it's from the ToH map page, then probably the little modification I told you will balance it.

[Black Ghost]

Warden would look really cool, but you can't afford not to concentrate on combat and resists. The only exception is maybe going for the Crusader cast, since always 10 morale is a huge bonus.
.

the idea is to have:

knight (warden) focused on:
tactic (even E is enough)
offence (try GM)
deffence (try GM)
nature (B usually) stoneskin, speed, s.sprite are useful

priest(crusard) focused on:
life (GM)
healing (GM)
spirituality (GM)
tactic (B)

mage focused on:
order (try GM)
wizardy (try GM)
enchantment (try GM)

so not to waste level usp take all altars and power-ups structures to get the class. IMO life has the greatest variety of good classes

[csarmi]

Just keep on with these rediculous statements (build warden, only 3 heroes is reasonable, etc.)...

Sad, because you seem to have some good ideas. But you won't get anywhere with it in serious MP.

[farbs]

Quick questions:
Do you guys pick up gold or exp from chests?
And
Say Kaezin picks up Death Heroes, will my death DD spells from Life magic do damage to his heroes?

[csarmi]

always gold from tests (maybe XP if that gives you something crucial, such as GM pathfinding or that expert nature magic you were waiting for to summon waters)

as for your other questions, I am not sure
use the map editor to test it

[gravyluvr]

always gold from tests (maybe XP if that gives you something crucial, such as GM pathfinding or that expert nature magic you were waiting for to summon waters)

On most maps I pick up the cash...

Sometime in certain maps, where developing the stealth skill will allow you access to lots of mines and resources, then I will pump xp into my "spy" but usually getting that next level creature dwelling a day earlier or adding that extra Level 3 or 4 creature will allow much faster hero and army development than the xp will.