Improving Scouting and a solution to the tactics phase issue

[NSFW]

I think everyone agrees, the "luck" factor in the tactics phase with positioning is a bit absurd.

My proposed solution is a buff to the scouting skill, making it valuable and adding more choice to the logistics tree then just logistics -> pathfinding, unless scouting is needed for a special.

Basically my idea is, anyone who has scouting gains the advantage of being able to position their troops after the other player.

I haven't decided what would happen if both players have scouting, or if both have none.

I guess if both have none, it remains the way it is now, purely luck. It makes sense this way in some point, the army charges in, not knowing positions, and the defending army the same.

What do you think?

[ThunderTitan]

And if they both have it they can both see eachother. And they can still change the location until they both have the tactics button presed.

[Bandobras Took]

Purely luck? It's outguessing your opponent. There's a metagame. Luck has to do with what obstacles appear on the battlefield.

I like the skill system as it stands; very few if no "must-have" skills. Add tactical advantage like that to Logistics (of which Scouting is a subset) and you're bordering on it.

[NSFW]

And if they both have it they can both see eachother. And they can still change the location until they both have the tactics button presed.

Problem with that is no one would press the tactics button until they had the advantage. I suppose the solution would simply be to put a timer on it, and that makes perfect sense, since in "reality" the waiting army, wouldn't wait for you to shuffle your army around. Still not ideal IMO.

@ Bandobras

There is no outguessing your opponent at all. Yes you can get some idea of where he is going to place things, based on obstacles, and I acknowledge that as a good point. To me though, it's no fun when I accidently place my core group of creatures, directly in line with a klaus empowered cavalier. I think in another thread, your solution was to increase the battlefied size (or inversely decrease the speed of some units). I guess that works, but I figured my way would add a valuabe aspect to a skill that is for the most part almost ignored unless needed.

[ThunderTitan]

Purely luck? It's outguessing your opponent. There's a metagame.

No, it's finding a perfect starting position for the troops you have. Heck, i won a fight against a superior Necro force the 3rd time just because I put my M.Hunters behind other units so that his creatures couldn't reach them. And I was left with 60 Hunters out of 100+ and another creature (Treant i think). The other 2 attemps ended with him barely losing 50% - 60% of his forces.

[Gaidal Cain]

I think Scouting is quite OK as it is. It's not one of the best skills around, but it's not bad enough that I think it needs sucha big boost. Removing the insane scouting bonus from Silent Stalker and giving it this instead would be better, and even more fitting.

[ThunderTitan]

The problem with that one is that not every hero can get Silent Stalker.

[Gaidal Cain]

And? Not every hero can get teleport assault or erratic mana either. If we want to fix the tactics phase, doing it by assigning it to some ability isn't going to work. Better to just decrease speeds of units so they can't cross the field in one turn.

[DaemianLucifer]

Purely luck? It's outguessing your opponent. There's a metagame. Luck has to do with what obstacles appear on the battlefield.

And how are you going to outguess the AI?It is just that:Luck.The game involves too much luck.

And? Not every hero can get teleport assault or erratic mana either. If we want to fix the tactics phase, doing it by assigning it to some ability isn't going to work. Better to just decrease speeds of units so they can't cross the field in one turn.

No,better to increase the BF and add LoS to balance out archers and casters.And increase the movement of some units(devils especially).

[Bandobras Took]

Purely luck? It's outguessing your opponent. There's a metagame. Luck has to do with what obstacles appear on the battlefield.

And how are you going to outguess the AI?It is just that:Luck.The game involves too much luck.

You mean the AI isn't predictable? That's good news!

What are other instances in which the game involves too much luck?

[Omega_Destroyer]

You can't really outguess the AI. I've found it will usually place its units optimally to mine. It's annoying, but it happens.

[Bandobras Took]

You can't really outguess the AI. I've found it will usually place its units optimally to mine. It's annoying, but it happens.

My experience hasn't been that way -- but then, I tend to play Inferno, which averages very high initiative. Maybe I just to get to screw the AI before it does the same to me.

[playforfun]

I think everyone agrees, the "luck" factor in the tactics phase with positioning is a bit absurd.

My proposed solution is a buff to the scouting skill, making it valuable and adding more choice to the logistics tree then just logistics -> pathfinding, unless scouting is needed for a special.

Luck has always been and should always be part of any game. Some luck factor can make a game a lot more interesting by making things a little more unpredictable. Too much luck is another story. For the present case, whether there's too much luck with the positioning issue is debatable. Firstly, you can choose whether to fight an enemy with black dragons/paladins. If you can't take the risk to suffer heavy casualties owing to a possible first turn enemy luck. This is the case when you are in the upper hand, and by the same token you may want to take this risk when you're not lagging behind. Secondly, this lucky positioning doesn't always work. If you don't have the right units you don't benefit from it much. Last but not least, it applies to both you and the opponent, so it's not unfair.

The second thing is whether scouting should be buffed. While pathfinding is excellent scouting is definitely not that bad. It allows you to see much farther and that certain extra squares of uncovered fog of war can be sometimes game-deciding.

[Thanquol]

It allows you to see much farther and that certain extra squares of uncovered fog of war can be sometimes game-deciding.

There is no real fog of war in HoMM5 - another good concept from HoMM4 they failed to implement. Had they implemented fog of war then Scouting would have been a lot more usefull, but since they have not Scouting is very low on my - and I suspect most other players - priority list.

[DaemianLucifer]

What are other instances in which the game involves too much luck?

When you race towards the ultimate,its sheer luck if youll get them.You can plan it to the smallest detail,until you get offered the two abilities that both prevent you from reaching it.And on the 20th something level.All that effort gone to waste.

When you fight(Im not counting lucky shots,which are sheer luck,and should be toned down):Ghosts,squires,hellfire,moats,all of it is sheer luck,and too much of it.Especially in the case of ghosts.

[Kiyoko]

What I would like to see is a removal of the tactics phase, a larger battlefield, lower speed for all units and a range limit for shooters/casters. This way the first 3-4 moves with each creature would be the equivalent of a fair tactics phase.

this would of course be pretty tedious if you had to do it vs neutrals, but it would make larger battles much more interesting.

as it is right now, after a few turns two thirds of your walking stacks will be able to attack any enemy stack since they're standing in the middle of the battlefield. battles are all about using the right stack to attack a specific enemy stack and do everything in the correct order. my suggestion would add a lot more possibilities.

[Gus]

Last but not least, it applies to both you and the opponent, so it's not unfair.

So if battles were decided by flipping a coin, then it would be fair because it'd be the same for you and your opponent? sorry, i don't buy it.

the BF needs to be larger, and creatures should not be able to cross it in one turn (except ArchDevils, and possibly a couple of special creatures).

[MrSteamTank]

Purely luck? It's outguessing your opponent. There's a metagame. Luck has to do with what obstacles appear on the battlefield.

I like the skill system as it stands; very few if no "must-have" skills. Add tactical advantage like that to Logistics (of which Scouting is a subset) and you're bordering on it.

According to that logic rock, paper, scissors is a metagame. If you're good maybe you should try http://www.worldrps.com/

Seriously though I don't see whats fun about trying to guess where you're opponent will put his units for a massive early game start. In general it's about opinion but I'd rather be concentrating more on in game combat than praying I place my units correctly.