Combat order

[Indral]

Did anyone figure out just how combat order is determined?

There are many situations of same initiative, and I'm interested in how those situations are handled by the game. God, I hope there's no randomness.

And when do the heroes take turn?
What about identical stacks?
Attacking/defending hero?

If someone has some information, please share...

Thanks.

[Pitsu]

To my knowledge hero has initiative 10 (unless with sorcery) and should be handled as creatures. At the begin of a battle the main determinator is stack initiative. But there is also a small randomness factor which makes it impossible to predict the exact order.

[Mitzah]

Isn't the order determined by speed if initiative is the same ?

[Gus]

IMHO, speed is nothing more than the number of squares you can move.

[Cunning Death]

then what's deciding between creatures with same initiative? random generator?

[DaemianLucifer]

then what's deciding between creatures with same initiative? random generator?

I think thats correct.But I think that if there are no influences from moral,spells and such,the order that the creature start in is the order they finish in.Ive seen very little shifts during the battle between the stacks with same initiative.

[Indral]

thx for the info, i was afraid of this.. (

random generator kills many good tactics with the "wait" command. in H3 combat was really like chess - as a master you WOULD win. now this random factor gives chance to poor players.. very "gay", i say. (no offense to homosexual people).

[DaemianLucifer]

thx for the info, i was afraid of this.. (

random generator kills many good tactics with the "wait" command. in H3 combat was really like chess - as a master you WOULD win. now this random factor gives chance to poor players.. very "gay", i say. (no offense to homosexual people).

Not really,since in HIII there was also a significant luck factor:The one that had the luck to play first would cast mass haste and slaughter half of the other army.Game over.

[Indral]

the LUCK to play first?

well, that's exactly my point - it was NOT luck, it was circumstance.
if both players were smart enough to get phoenixes, the attacker went first, and that was it, no luck, no randomness..

and if the defender was very smart, he got the orb of inhibition, and went for might.. game over.

[DaemianLucifer]

well, that's exactly my point - it was NOT luck, it was circumstance.
if both players were smart enough to get phoenixes, the attacker went first, and that was it, no luck, no randomness..

Really?I had defender playing first,even with the same speed as I.

[Indral]

never occured to me.
well, it's all a thing of the past now. gotta get used to the new system.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I believe that the initiative system works similar to that seen in games like Final Fantasy Tactics.

The basic idea:
each stack is given a random starting action value (weighted for creature initiative). Perhaps something like 1-5 per initiative value (so a creature with initiative of 6 would start between 6 and 30, initiative 13 would start between 13 and 65).

After that initiative is done this way:
1) If any creature has an action value of 100 or more, then it gets to act. If more than one creature is over 100, they go in order of highest action value first. Ties may have other factors to decide, or be random.
A normal action will cost 100 action points. Some actions cost more or less. For instance, waiting only costs 50.
2) If no creature has an action value of at least 100, then each creature gains action points equal to its initiative rating, and we return to step 1.

I have a few final comments after the example- after looking at the start of it, you may simply want to jump to the end. The example is an entire, theoretical battle.

Example: A hero (initiative 10) with advanced sorcery (20% reduction in time between actions when casting) and spell power 1 and a stack of sprites (initiative 14) attacks a neutral stack of stone gargoyles (initiative 9), which appear in the battlefield in 2 stacks.

Randomly, starting action values are determined to be:
hero: 20
sprite: 60
gargoyle 1: 38
gargoyle 2: 20

The initiative bar indicates: sprites, gar1, hero, gar2, sprites, sprites, hero, gar1, gar2.

after 3 sets of accumulation, we have:
hero: 50 (=20+3*10)
sprite: 102 (=60+3*14)
gar.1: 65 (=38+3*9)
gar.2: 47 (=20+3*9)

The sprites get to act, and decide to wait for the gargoyles to come. They drop to 52 points.
After 4 more accumulations, we have:
hero: 90 (=50+4*10)
sprite: 108 (=102-50+4*14)
gar.1: 101 (=65+4*9)
gar.2: 83 (=47+4*9)

The initiative bar indicates: sprites, gar1, hero, gar2, sprites, hero, gar1, gar2, sprites.
(note the sprites are still in front, but no longer have a double-action later on)

The sprites again wait, and then the first gargoyle stack moves towards the sprites.
1 more accumulation:
hero: 100 (=90+10)
sprite: 72 (=108-50+14)
gar.1: 10 (=101-100+9)
gar.2: 92 (=83+9)

Initiative bar: hero, gar2, sprite, sprite, hero, gar1, gar2, sprite, hero

The hero casts slow on the second stack of gargoyles (reducing their initiaive by 25% to 6.75) Sincethe hero has advanced sorcery, this only costs 80 action points.

2 more accumulations:
hero: 40 (=100-80+2*10)
sprite: 100 (=72+2*14)
gar.1: 28 (=10+2*9)
gar.2: 105.5 (=92+2*6.75; slow active for .8 more turns)

Initiative bar: gar2, sprite, hero, sprite, gar1, gar2, sprite, hero
Note that the hero moved up in the initiative bar between the double sprite action, since the spell modified the hero'es action value.

So the slowed gargoyles were slowed too late to get the sprites a chance to move before them. (fortunately, they are too far away to attack, but...)
the slowed gargoyles move, and the sprites attack, killing the first stack of gargoyles.
6 accumulations later:
hero: 100 (=40+6*10)
sprite: 84 (=100-100+6*14)
gar.1: 0 (dead, initiative remains 0 unless reanimated, but gargoyles can't reanimate)
gar.2: 46 (=105.5-100+6*6.75; slow active for .2 more turns)

initiative bar: hero, sprite, gar2, sprite, hero, sprite, gar2, hero, sprite
(although the last gar2 may actually be at the end, and move forward to this point only after the slow spell wears off)

The hero attacks, but doesn't kill the stack.
2 accumulations later:
hero: 20 (=100-100+2*10)
sprite: 112 (=84+2*14)
gar.2: 59.5 (=46+2*6.75; slow has worn off, initiative returns to 9)

initiative bar: sprite, gar2, sprite, hero, sprite, gar2, hero, sprite, gar2

Sprites attack but get a poor hit, and don't finish off the gargoyles.
5 accumulations later:
hero: 70 (=20+5*10)
sprite: 82 (=112-100+5*14)
gar.2: 104.5 (=59.5+5*9)

initiative bar: gar2, sprite, hero, sprite, gar2, hero, sprite, gar2, sprite

The gargoyles attack, but are finished off in the retaliation. The battle ends.

end of example battle

Now, they may not use a 100 point counter (I used that for simplicity) and the slowed initiative is rounded when displayed (but internally may be fractional), so I can't say this is definitely the way it works. I used 10 accumulations per turn, but the game might actually do 100 per turn, and each accumulation gives 1/10th the initiative value (or something similar). However, this is very likely the basic way the system works.

as we have been told, this system has double the initiative -> double the action point accumulation -> act twice as often. This also makes it easy to find the effects of initiaive-modifying actions / spells / abilities.

[Phobos]

well, that's exactly my point - it was NOT luck, it was circumstance.
if both players were smart enough to get phoenixes, the attacker went first, and that was it, no luck, no randomness..

Really?I had defender playing first,even with the same speed as I.

DL: In HoMM3, the attacker always goes first if the fastest creatures of the two players have same speed - I'm sure of this. Maybe the defender had artifacts that boost speed or sir Mullich in yours situation...?

[Indral]

i'm not convinced that the system Qurqirish Dragon described is really used in H5.

personally, i don't like the randomness in the combat system, so i really hope it's not used.

[jaq]

The basic idea:

Randomly, starting action values are determined to be:
hero: 20
sprite: 60
gargoyle 1: 38
gargoyle 2: 20

The initiative bar indicates: sprites, gar1, hero, gar2, sprites, sprites, hero, gar1, gar2.

after 3 sets of accumulation, we have:
hero: 50 (=20+3*10)
sprite: 102 (=60+3*14)
gar.1: 65 (=38+3*9)
gar.2: 47 (=20+3*9)

If it is so, then I think it is an subject to moding. The creatures' icons in the initiative bar shall include, lets say, two bars at the bottom - green one for initiative points < 100 and red one for initiative points > 100. And the two bars should be under the icons of elemental vision.