HOMM 4: How do I beat my friend online, Life vs Chaos!?

[farbs]

Hello there!
My friend and I have been playing quite a bit of multiplayer online using gamespy. He constantly beats me. Sometimes its pretty close. I'm Life and hes Chaos. I'm looking for some tips on how to get an advantage on him so I can possibly win. I have been going with three heroes, Life knight and priest and a druid. He usually goes with a Chaos caster, theif, and death knight. I have been using Champions however I'm starting to dislikethem when I'm playing against him and see that angels can be better. I think one big factor is his madusa are raping me hard...taking out my angels big time (last map had angels and champions). Can anyone give me any tips on how to beat him...I guess I could use Sanctuary and move all my guys in a good position around his heroes so I can constantly attack and he can't use the potions of immortality fast enough...thats the only new stratagey i could think of.
Someone please help me!!!

[gravyluvr]

Try Archer with Priest and start going with Magic Resistance (Archery, Combat, MR) on the archer. Magic Resist really helps against Chaos. Add the tactics in third.

Try to go with Pikemen instead of Ballistas so you can walk around a little faster and they'll be able to get to the Medusa.

Kill the magicians. The scout won't hurt you in combat.

Send in the archer and priest to "disrupt their core"

Get GM Ressurect fast!

If you win the battle - you won the war!

[Kaezin]

I'm the Chaos guy he plays against. We use the Equilibris mod and usually do smaller maps because neither of us really want to sit down for 6-7 hours straight to play a single game. Every single time we've played so far he has lucked out and gotten Mass Chaos Ward so my sorcerer was basically relegated to casting buffs like Cat Reflexes and (Mass) First Strike/Haste.

When we play, everything always comes down to one final fight that ultimately decides the game. Are multiplayer games usually like that? There's not really any room to hit and run since the maps we use normally have a beefy neutral stack guarding the way to the other player and once that stack is killed, we throw everything we have against eachother.

Also, why is GM Resurrect so great? It's very rare to lose more than a creature or two to neutral stacks and Resurrect won't help if the hero loses the big fight.

One last thing: is it possible to get more than one skill going reliably on one character assuming that the map isn't huge? It seems that when we fight, our heroes are usually around level 16-18ish and only have one group of skills GMed so there isn't a lot of flexibility for us. That may just because we play medium maps, though.

[Banedon]

When we play, everything always comes down to one final fight that ultimately decides the game. Are multiplayer games usually like that?

That's been my experience, except in games with more than 2 players - then the common way to end a game is by mutual agreement.

One last thing: is it possible to get more than one skill going reliably on one character assuming that the map isn't huge? It seems that when we fight, our heroes are usually around level 16-18ish and only have one group of skills GMed so there isn't a lot of flexibility for us. That may just because we play medium maps, though.

Yes, it is possible. csarmi is probably able to tell you more about that though.

As Life, I've always liked Angels, and here they should be even better. I prefer to have as many Priests as possible; I'd even give up the Archer if possible. What'd I'd do is buy as many heroes as possible (stop sniggering, csarmi - if the map has a chokepoint, superhero strategies are unlikely). A Druid will surely help with Fortune and Snake Strike, while as long as someone learns Cancellation, taking out Cat Reflexes / Mass First Strike isn't too difficult (after all, it's only the single unit that's a threat - and since Cat Reflexes is in play, I'll assume Kaezin has Hydras?).

Medusae is definitely a threat. To that I'd say you don't have much choice; you must pile sufficient firepower on them to neutralize them. A Druid will again help here, as will Song of Peace. I'd be careful not to leave the Angels within LoS of the Medusae at all costs.

Life has some really brilliant blessings - Mass Fervor, Prayer, Mass Chaos Ward, Mass Bless. Use them all, it'll help a lot. That (and Divine Intervention) is the main reason I like to have at least 2 Life Priests in battle).

[Kaezin]

If I get Cat Reflexes in my mage guild(s), then I go with hydras as my usual hero killer since farbs loves surrounding me. Black Dragons are amazing individually, but it's annoying to see 10 black dragons against 40+ champions. If I get only damage spells then I go with dragons. We usually play maps that have a second or third town that is alignment linked, so in most of the games so far I've been able to get cat reflexes and go the hydra route.

I'm considering going with sorcerer/thief/archer/druid, then tossing tactics onto the archer and death onto the thief ASAP. Last game farbs had dragon strength, prayer and I think giant strength on his angels, which was simply ridiculous. 600+ hp angels that do more base damage than my black dragons... ouch. Thankfully my medusae were doing ~80 damage, then stoning 3-4 angels each turn. He only had 9 or 10 angels (we fought relatively early, and his main town was cranking out champions), so I made short work of them when I got my mare's terror to land through chaos ward. If I can pull off that spell combo using dragon strength and cat reflexes on my hydras, not much is going to stand in my path for very long.

I'm still not sure on the best hero mix to use, nor on how to level them to a high level (enough to GM two or more skills) on a small to medium sized map.

[csarmi]

Kaezin, you are on the right path. Just try to get even more heroes, at least 4, in most cases 5 (that's in your main army) and of course keep buying more, heroes are always useful.

As I get from your messages, you end up with 3 level 16-18 heroes. You could end up with 5 level 12-15 heroes and be much more effective.

And yes, you can only learn one GM (plus AFTER you got to GM, you can get supplementary skills like combat, other magic, etc... sometimes just to get to a cool advanced class like fireguard vs chaos, or crusader).

But if you think about it, that's not a real problem: in an action, you will always be using only one school.

[Kaezin]

I could get more heroes, but it feels inefficient in battle to just hit defend/wait every turn with my tactics and scouting hero. They have some combat skill, but not nearly enough to actually do anything useful. I could have 5+ heroes, but chances are at least one of them will be of limited use in actual battles (most likely the pathfinder). In that case, they'd just be taking up a spot that I could fill with mares or medusae.

Also how do you deal with the morale issues? I want a druid for the utility, but I also want a death knight for the tactics. I could toss tactics on the archer, but that means I'd have to keep my fingers crossed on finding a tactics shrine or getting offered it early in the game. Do you buy the hero type and suffer the morale consequences, or do you get something more alignment-friendly and hope to get offered the skills you want?

Thanks for the advice so far, although I don't think farbs appreciates it

[Tao Jones]

Farbs: Some general ideas for Life/Nature versus Chaos medusae.

Tactics:

Put a summoned creature stack in melee range of the medusae ASAP. Manti are good for this. If your Life caster goes earlier, hit them with Song of Peace first.

If you can't reach the medusae on the first turn, block them with summons until you can get and keep them Peaced or in melee. Try Air Elementals since they take less damage.

Mass Snake Strike is useful to curb stonings on retaliation from medusae, since the retaliating numbers are reduced. If you use this tactic, be certain you are meleeing the medusae with a strong stack. Squires won't cut it.

Be careful of using Sanctuary. If you cast it on screening units, they will no longer protect a unit in the back row if it attacks, and the medusae will be able to shoot and/or retaliate through your screen at your Archer or crossbowmen.

Strategies:

Pump Nature Summoning *early* in the game and use it to outstrip your opponent's slower creature growth. All else being equal, 167 elves will kill one black dragon per turn (two attacks).

You can use Equi to turn off creature summoning and save up your PEONs until just before the ultimate battle, alowing you to adventure with fast level fours and put off hauling around elves until you really need them.

Consider pumping Order. Forgetfulness owns shooters. Hypno pushes them down and takes their lunch money. Mass Fervor will take care of morale issues.

Also, consider that if your opponent is relying on shooters, s/he is on the defensive. Take the battle to them and don't let up.

[csarmi]

Heroes are always good in battle. Usually better than any level 1-3 stack you can have and almost ALWAYS better than any level 1-2 stack. They can do lots of things even if they have no magic:

-throw potions
-use wands
-fire slowing/stunning/whatever arrow
-distracting
-taking retal

and the pathfinder will give 50% more movement, that translates to 50% more XP, faster development, etc...

Morale issues: that's why you only use two alignments. The easiest is to go chaos+death with chaos, that way you can have a native tactician AND pathfinder. Otherwise you have to train one of them from different alignment. For example, if you go nature+life, you will turn an archer to ranger (much slower to get GM path, of course).

nature summoning is useless and so are medusae n the long run

one more thing: NEVER take summoning/sorcery/leadership/stealth/etc while your heroes are still under construction...
that will decrease your chance to get the wanted skills (aim is GM path, GM life, GM offense/defense, etc asap) and it will decrease it MUCH more than you would think

for example, from then on, you may get a useless improvement on those skills on the library and such -- you can get three sucky selection when levelling up (advanced summoning, basic combat, basic life for example)
and never

[Tao Jones]

nature summoning is useless and so are medusae n the long run

I must respectfully disagree. Almost everything in the game has usefulness, in one way or another.

one more thing: NEVER take summoning/sorcery/leadership/stealth/etc while your heroes are still under construction...
that will decrease your chance to get the wanted skills (aim is GM path, GM life, GM offense/defense, etc asap) and it will decrease it MUCH more than you would think

It's a trade-off, to be sure. But Farbs is in difficulty, so it might help him to try some different tactics and strategies. While -you- may have the perfect counter for everything, his opponent doesn't, necessarily.

Besides, you can make a hero focussed on Summoning skill, and have another Nature hero for spells.

for example, from then on, you may get a useless improvement on those skills on the library and such -- you can get three sucky selection when levelling up (advanced summoning, basic combat, basic life for example) and never

I don't think you finished that thought, but the point is taken. Bad luck on power-ups happens to us all.

[Kaezin]

The easiest is to go chaos+death with chaos, that way you can have a native tactician AND pathfinder.

That's what I've been doing so far, but I miss having nature magic for the buffs and summons. Do you think I should not get nature magic at all, or should I toss it onto my thief once I GM pathfinding? If I do that, I won't have enough exp to get nature magic high and could miss out on buffs like mass haste or dragon strength. Maybe I should get an extra sorcerer instead and pump nature magic on him?

So far we've both held off on the secondary skills (summoning, leadership, etc.) and have focused on our main skills followed by combat. Sometimes we fight before we even have the chance to get our main skill to GM, so we rarely have luxuries like that.

Also, consider that if your opponent is relying on shooters, s/he is on the defensive. Take the battle to them and don't let up.

I threw nature magic on my thief in the other games and used the summons to block off my medusae. Other than that, my mares, hydras, and dragons were all face-to-face with his heroes, which I think is one of the major problems he had. Even if he blocked LoS (which he often did), the hydras and dragons still were able to take out multiple units with just one attack. Usually I'm ahead in the speed department, so I always bring the fight to his side which leaves my heroes relatively safe once I have the LoS blocked.

Heroes are always good in battle. Usually better than any level 1-3 stack you can have and almost ALWAYS better than any level 1-2 stack.

Usually our armies are comprised as follows:
Hero, hero, hero, level 4 unit, alternate level 4 unit, level 3 unit, hero/level 2 unit. In my case, I leave out the fourth hero and use medusae.

I don't find potions to be extremely useful, and I rarely seem to find wands or arrows. Plus, when you're dealing with large stacks of level 3/4 creatures, the heroes don't absorb retaliation very well unless you have a lot of immortality potions available. It just seems more useful to have a reliable source of damage than to have a sitting duck hero on the field. (Obviously this doesn't apply to caster heroes or combat heroes, only heroes that are in the army only for intrinsic bonuses such as pathfinding or tactics.)

I'm not entirely sure what point I was trying to make in this post

[gravyluvr]

We've had the Life discussion A LOT!!!!

As far as hero building... start cheap as you build your towns by going with Life + Tactics

Hero1 = Priest (GM Life)
Hero2 = Knight (GM Tactics)
Hero3 = Priest (GM Resurrect) replaces Squires
Hero4 = Druid (GM Nature) replaces Crossbowmen
Hero5 = Mage (GM Order) replaces Pikemen
Stack6 = Angels
Stack7 = Monks

Some of this depends on your levels and skills. Will the pikemen be better than a Mage with GM Order? Did you get Hypnotize, Mass Slow, Forgetfulness, and other key spells?

[farbs]

We've had the Life discussion A LOT!!!!

Hero1 = Priest (GM Life)
Hero2 = Knight (GM Tactics)
Hero3 = Priest (GM Resurrect) replaces Squires
Hero4 = Druid (GM Nature) replaces Crossbowmen
Hero5 = Mage (GM Order) replaces Pikemen
Stack6 = Angels
Stack7 = Monks

Some of this depends on your levels and skills. Will the pikemen be better than a Mage with GM Order? Did you get Hypnotize, Mass Slow, Forgetfulness, and other key spells?

If I pick up the Order Mage wont that hurt my army b/c of bad moral w/ the Order/Nature conflict... substantially?

[Banedon]

nature summoning is useless and so are medusae n the long run

I would challenge the point on Medusae. A large stack of Medusae are intimidating even late in the game, provided of course you can bring them to the battleground without significantly slowing down the army.

That's what I've been doing so far, but I miss having nature magic for the buffs and summons. Do you think I should not get nature magic at all, or should I toss it onto my thief once I GM pathfinding? If I do that, I won't have enough exp to get nature magic high and could miss out on buffs like mass haste or dragon strength. Maybe I should get an extra sorcerer instead and pump nature magic on him?

Nature's best buff is Dragon Strength, which is unfortunately at GM level. Fortune is very good too, but since you're Chaos and have access to Misfortune, it might be OK to go without it. Mass Speed can be replaced by Mass Haste. I'd say that after the Thief gets GM Pathfinding you won't have much time to train Nature Magic, however. I'd probably forsake Nature Magic altogether; it's not that it's crucial anyway.

I don't find potions to be extremely useful, and I rarely seem to find wands or arrows. Plus, when you're dealing with large stacks of level 3/4 creatures, the heroes don't absorb retaliation very well unless you have a lot of immortality potions available. It just seems more useful to have a reliable source of damage than to have a sitting duck hero on the field. (Obviously this doesn't apply to caster heroes or combat heroes, only heroes that are in the army only for intrinsic bonuses such as pathfinding or tactics.)

If you're Life, you can happily let the hero die because you've Divine Intervention anyway But I'd use the hero just for that many potions have great effects, while if you find a Valder's Crossbow of Sloth for example, it'd be a good time to use it.

Usually our armies are comprised as follows:
Hero, hero, hero, level 4 unit, alternate level 4 unit, level 3 unit, hero/level 2 unit. In my case, I leave out the fourth hero and use medusae.

If you've two level 4 units why bother with the level 3 unit?

If I pick up the Order Mage wont that hurt my army b/c of bad moral w/ the Order/Nature conflict... substantially?

It would, but you do have Mass Fervor which hopefully kaezin can't counter with Mass Sorrow (or Mass Cancellation).

[farbs]

Does mass fevor effect my heroes as well?

[Kaezin]

Well if I'm dropping nature, then I'll most likely pick up a death caster since I already am using a death knight, anyway. In that case I'll keep my fingers crossed and can hopefully pick up the good debuffs.

We had alternate level 4 creatures because of the random dwelling on the map we usually play. Also, why not keep the level 3 creature? In my case, I have nightmares and I think it's definitely worth the trouble to have (at the very least) an extra cast of terror. If I'm low on space in my army, I'd rather leave out the medusae than the nightmares. Chances are we won't be lugging around both types of level 4 units unless we absolutely have to.

[csarmi]

>>I must respectfully disagree. Almost everything in the game has >>usefulness, in one way or another.

Not really.

>>Besides, you can make a hero focussed on Summoning skill, and have >>another Nature hero for spells.

That's just a waste, in my opinion, even in equilibris. It produces a few creatures that will never make a difference in endfights. You need 11 nature skills to get to GM summoning, that is very close to GM nature (and it is already master nature). Now if you ask me which one would I have - I don't think that's a question.

Of course if there is free XP on the map for 213 heroes, you can create a few summoners too.

>>I don't think you finished that thought, but the point is taken. Bad luck >>on power-ups happens to us all.

The point is that it DOESN'T, if you develop your skills carefully.

Yes, Mass Fervor effects heroes too.

And don't just take any advice. For example, forget about GM resurrection, that skill is a waste too.

There is NO mass haste in the game. And Mass Speed is a level 3 spell, pretty damn good I think. Summon satyrs/leprechauns/waters is great too. Mass Fortune is one of the best buffs in the game (you take 2/3rd damage from hits and most chaos spell effects).

[gravyluvr]

You don't like a ressurection specialist csarmi?

I haven't really played too often with two priests but I just figured ressurection would be good for one as you hero build. This assumes that they could still gain some good levels.

[csarmi]

Resurrection is a waste.
First, it costs too much. OK, maybe if you get it absolutely free AFTER your hero is on GM life already, take it. But not before that! It might prevent you (indirectly, by giving you a wrong 3-choice) from getting good skills.

So the cost is double: you don't get closer to GM life AND you will have to pick unwanted skills later.

Remember, getting GM life at level 14 vs level 12 can mean the world.

Second, it seldom comes in handly. How often do you lose valuable creatures? Like level 3's and 4's? And how often will it give you enough back to be of any use? Never!

[farbs]

Resurrection is a waste.
First, it costs too much. OK, maybe if you get it absolutely free AFTER your hero is on GM life already, take it. But not before that! It might prevent you (indirectly, by giving you a wrong 3-choice) from getting good skills.

So the cost is double: you don't get closer to GM life AND you will have to pick unwanted skills later.

Remember, getting GM life at level 14 vs level 12 can mean the world.

Second, it seldom comes in handly. How often do you lose valuable creatures? Like level 3's and 4's? And how often will it give you enough back to be of any use? Never!

I completely agree