Too many non-retaliation units?

[Dublex]

Devils can still teleport though, which is useful in sieges etc.

[Wolfshanze]

@Jerrie

Cerberi runs as far as the angels/dragons can fly.I call that pretty slow.

Yes, but all of them are faster then a Devil can teleport!

They used to be both cool and powerful... teleporting to the other side of the map and striking without retaliation would strike fear into the hearts of the enemy...

...now they've been totally castrated and are completely impotent on the battlefield (for a level-7 creature).

"Poor Devils"...

[theGryphon]

Devils and Necro dragons are weak. Full stop. For the latter however, there is a +1 weekly growth bonus which can make up for that weakness at least to some extent. Necropolis overall is not weak at all, I like it the way it is. However, I cannot say this for Inferno. They are obviously the weakest faction in all. In the Haven campaign, I played at hard diff. and it was a cakewalk.
The Devils were like a joke, Paladins slaughtered them in a blink of an eye. Initiative is good enough but speed is too low. The AI didn't find time to summon pit lords.
I fear the Pit Lords much more; nice spells and vorpal sword are cool. But their initiative is soooo low.
Nightmares are good with nice initiative and speed, but they do crappy damage.
Succubi rocks. I just love them. Not in love yet One of the coolest and fearful (per level) creatures in the game.
Cerberus are fine when upgraded. But they die like flies!
Demon thingies are the second April 1 joke in this town! They have almost no use. Arguably the worst tier 2 unit in the game.
Imps are nice, better than Demons (lol).

Overall, I think Inferno is the weakest faction. Many units are too weak compared to rivals in the same tier. Gating does not help enough. The whole faction die so easily. Summon Pit Lord ability is hard to use: you can use it only on your dead units (so somebody has to die first ) and you have to be adjacent to that dead stack.

I didn't play it but I guess the Inferno campaign should be much much harder...

[Continuity]

Only Cavalier->Paladin and Dark->Grim Raider have the charge ability right? So 4 out of 90, that's not too much. Plus, the charge abilities for Cavaliers and Raiders work differently. Former get attack advantage, latter get defence handicap for opponent

Oh?So they changed it?Great!Finally a change thats good.

Wait, so there's actually only two units that have charging? And that's too many? Feels like there's on in each town?

[Rapier]

Don't hell chargers have it? and the Grim Riders have a "Rider Charge" ability, which is different.

I don't think there are any others... maybe Death Knights have it?

[theGryphon]

Hell Chargers don't have the charge ability. Strange?

[Minmaster]

@Jerrie

Cerberi runs as far as the angels/dragons can fly.I call that pretty slow.

Yes, but all of them are faster then a Devil can teleport!

They used to be both cool and powerful... teleporting to the other side of the map and striking without retaliation would strike fear into the hearts of the enemy...

...now they've been totally castrated and are completely impotent on the battlefield (for a level-7 creature).

"Poor Devils"...

who knows? things like this might be addressed in the patch. they said they will balance things. i see devils getting boost to speed, and some of the crappy low initiative/low speed creatures getting some boost because right now, frankly those units have no use since nobody gets to use them to actually fight.

[Psychobabble]

and some of the crappy low initiative/low speed creatures getting some boost because right now, frankly those units have no use since nobody gets to use them to actually fight.

Maybe we could make it so that every creature gets one attack for every other creature's attack. That'd be crazy good .

[Purple Sky]

@Jerrie

Cerberi runs as far as the angels/dragons can fly.I call that pretty slow.

...now they've been totally castrated and are completely impotent on the battlefield (for a level-7 creature).

"Poor Devils"...

Youre still talking about HoMM V?

Anyway, Inferno is not overly weak. What makes them powerful are the 5th Succubi and 6th Fiends. They have two powerful ranged units with area effect attacks/spells.

However, perhaps the devil could be changed in to a small creature with weaker stats but high speed and initative? That way he will be able to teleport himself right between the monsters and attack the shooters. He could look more human-like and due to his small size would be unique and because of speed useful.

I dont understand how you could call horned demons to be a joke either. They are the perfect meat shield. Battling the difficult random enemies in the campaign was easier thanks to them.

[wimfrits]

Anyway, Inferno is not overly weak. What makes them powerful are the 5th Succubi and 6th Fiends. They have two powerful ranged units with area effect attacks/spells.

Moreover, Inferno has gating which results in free retaliation fodder. Combine it with hellfire and consume corpse and you have one of the sides most able to do early clearing without losses.
I think that all in all Inferno is overpowered when it comes to fighting neutrals.

As for the devils issue; one of the major flaws of H3 was that everything revolved around speed. The high level units were ridiculously strong compared to the lower levels. It is clearly attempted to fix this in H5 by toning down the lvl7 units. For one by preventing them to cross the battlefield in one turn and by reducing their initiative. Which is a good thing imo. It maintains deeper battlefield tactics instead of reducing them.
Now people want to have such overpowered units back? Why??

[Jimmpi]

who knows? things like this might be addressed in the patch. they said they will balance things. i see devils getting boost to speed, and some of the crappy low initiative/low speed creatures getting some boost because right now, frankly those units have no use since nobody gets to use them to actually fight.

really hope your right...the only reason devils where good in Heroes IV was that they could teleport over the whole battelfield...

[DaemianLucifer]

and you have to be adjacent to that dead stack.

No you dont.I manged to summon pit fiends two squares away.Funny though,I used this ability just once.

I didn't play it but I guess the Inferno campaign should be much much harder...

It is harder,but not because inferno is weaker,but because heaven campaign is a tutorial,and inferno is pitted against the mighty sylvan.

Wait, so there's actually only two units that have charging? And that's too many? Feels like there's on in each town?

There was one charger in every town in beta.Nightmares and unicorns were chargers,and I hated that.The way it is now is good though.

As for the devils issue; one of the major flaws of H3 was that everything revolved around speed. The high level units were ridiculously strong compared to the lower levels. It is clearly attempted to fix this in H5 by toning down the lvl7 units. For one by preventing them to cross the battlefield in one turn and by reducing their initiative. Which is a good thing imo. It maintains deeper battlefield tactics instead of reducing them.
Now people want to have such overpowered units back? Why??

The lowering of initiative for level 7s is logical,and it balances things nicely(large creatures are less agile).But lowering their speed has no sense.Why is it that cerberus can run farther than angels can fly or devils can teleport?It makes no sense!If that was the case,then how come you can cross the same distance in a jumbo jet much faster then in a car?How cam the top speed for flyers is 200 km/h and for walkers it is just 100 km/h?I already made one comparison before why a huge flyer such as an angel or a dragon should be able to fly over the entire battlefield,so I wont repeat myself.

[wimfrits]

The lowering of initiative for level 7s is logical,and it balances things nicely(large creatures are less agile).But lowering their speed has no sense.Why is it that cerberus can run farther than angels can fly or devils can teleport?It makes no sense!If that was the case,then how come you can cross the same distance in a jumbo jet much faster then in a car?How cam the top speed for flyers is 200 km/h and for walkers it is just 100 km/h?

Err... because realism is not an issue perhaps?
Balance is.

Btw, I can probably cross the same distance in a car a lot faster than a jumbo jet. Jumbojet needs to power up a lot longer, needs to position itself on a decent runway, etc etc. Flyers are slower than walkers on short distances, so the comparison doesn't hold

Fact is that if a lvl7 unit can outmanouvre everything else, it has an additional edge which makes it too strong. Lvl7 units already have an edge by nifty specials and high stats.

A devil with high initiative and teleporting across the battlefield could be balanced, but only if it has stats like that of a lvl4 unit.

[DaemianLucifer]

Err... because realism is not an issue perhaps?
Balance is.

I believe realism is an issue.

Btw, I can probably cross the same distance in a car a lot faster than a jumbo jet. Jumbojet needs to power up a lot longer, needs to position itself on a decent runway, etc etc. Flyers are slower than walkers on short distances, so the comparison doesn't hold

Hence jumbo has lower initiative,not speed.

Fact is that if a lvl7 unit can outmanouvre everything else, it has an additional edge which makes it too strong. Lvl7 units already have an edge by nifty specials and high stats.

Sure,some have nice stats,but not all.And they arent too strong since they are god damn expensive.

A devil with high initiative and teleporting across the battlefield could be balanced, but only if it has stats like that of a lvl4 unit.

The initiative it has is perfect,it just needs greater speed.It should be able to cover the whole BF.It is teleporting,after all.How can you limit teleporting like that?(btw,thats why vamps need to fly,not teleport)

[Jimmpi]

forget about balance! And just think of it...how unbalance does it get just because devil kan teleport longer och archangel kan fly longer?? Not much!

Lvl 7 creature should have greater speed compare to lvl 2-3..thats the point with lvl 7,,they are fast and powerfull!! if not then they could have made all creature the same lvl.

and second: if you can teleport you are not restriced to just half the battelfield,,where are the realism in that?? the whole ide with teleport is that you can movie the whole battel field

[wimfrits]

forget about balance!

Yes! Let's forget about balance!

And just think of it...how unbalance does it get just because devil kan teleport longer och archangel kan fly longer?? Not much!

Err... a lot?

Lvl 7 creature should have greater speed and lvl 2-3..thats the point with lvl 7,,they are fast and powerfull!! if not then they could have made all creature the same lvl.

No, they could make the difference more subtle, like making lvl7 units stronger than lower level units, but not say... powerful beyond comparison. Which they have! How wonderful!

and second: if you can teleport you are not restriced to just half the battelfield,,where are the realism in that?? the whole ide with teleport is that you can movie the whole battel field

Or the ability could just be renamed 'tinyport'. Would that solve your complaint?

[Jimmpi]

in that case you must have hated devils in Heroes IV..they could teleport the entire battelfield...
in my opinion it doesn't get unbalence because lvl 7 creature is soo expensive and there weekly groth is so low.

by the way,,could no the Evil Sorceress also teleport in heroes IV?

[wimfrits]

in that case you must have hated devils in Heroes IV..they could teleport the entire battelfield...
in my opinion it doesn't get unbalence because lvl 7 creature is soo expensive and there weekly groth is so low.

Actually, devils were pretty decently balanced in H4 imo. Mainly because of the combat system and reduced relative stats and abilities.
You couldn't send in your devils as blindly like you could in H3 because in H4:
- devils' stats are not that high
- devils suffer retaliation
- simultaneous retal system

If those features were in H5 as well, I'd be ok with a full-teleporting devil.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

and the Grim Riders have a "Rider Charge" ability, which is different.

I like the Grim Rider skill- if a friendly creature performs a melee attack when adjacent to the Raider, then the raider gets a free (no-retaliation) attack as well.
A blood witch / grim raider combo is a devistating attack on almost any enemy! (the witches stay far back for safety, using strike-and-return, and the raiders can actually DEFEND, and still get to attack every round - or they can attack twice per round.)

[Jimmpi]

in that case you must have hated devils in Heroes IV..they could teleport the entire battelfield...
in my opinion it doesn't get unbalence because lvl 7 creature is soo expensive and there weekly groth is so low.

Actually, devils were pretty decently balanced in H4 imo. Mainly because of the combat system and reduced relative stats and abilities.
You couldn't send in your devils as blindly like you could in H3 because in H4:
- devils' stats are not that high
- devils suffer retaliation
- simultaneous retal system

If those features were in H5 as well, I'd be ok with a full-teleporting devil.

yes of course..I didn't mean to make the devils over powerfull but like in heroes IV(full teleport and not super strong)..sorry for my bad explaning