MM7 skill emphasis mod (#1)

[tnevolin]

Hello, fellow players!

This is my version of MM7 skill emphasis mod. Similar to what I did for MM6: https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/topic/17131.

README: https://github.com/tnevolin/mm7-skill-e ... /README.md
INSTALLATION: https://github.com/tnevolin/mm7-skill-e ... llation.md

Enjoy and feedback!

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Still in balance testing phase but looks good so far.

[Tomsod]

From just browsing the readme: the Perception change is pretty clever! In my mod it just improves corpse looting for now, but I wanted to have more dungeon stuff that depends on this skill, so I might steal your idea. Although, did you encounter any secret doors which would completely block progress if the party cannot open them?

Also, a heads-up: you mentioned the shield spell regarding all your monsters shooting arrows, but it actually doesn't work in vanilla MM7 and the patch doesn't fix it either! All other sources of half missile damage do work, and can stack to great effect, just not the party-wide buff.

[tnevolin]

From just browsing the readme: the Perception change is pretty clever! In my mod it just improves corpse looting for now, but I wanted to have more dungeon stuff that depends on this skill, so I might steal your idea. Although, did you encounter any secret doors which would completely block progress if the party cannot open them?

Thanks. I like it too. Feel free to use.


Did not understand about blocking progress. You can pump perception as high as you need to open these doors and return back.

By my memory, the only door that can trap you is the one in tidewater caverns if you jump off the ship. Then there is no return.

Also, a heads-up: you mentioned the shield spell regarding all your monsters shooting arrows, but it actually doesn't work in vanilla MM7 and the patch doesn't fix it either! All other sources of half missile damage do work, and can stack to great effect, just not the party-wide buff.

Oh. Didn't know that. Let me fix it.

What other sources work? Just to understand where to look for the problem.

[Tomsod]

Did not understand about blocking progress. You can pump perception as high as you need to open these doors and return back.

As an extreme example, a party of 4 Paladins would be restricted to Novice Perception, and some areas require 40 skill IIRC. Even with Psychic and Scout hirelings that's a tall order! Granted, every class can at least learn Perception in vanilla, so it's never literally impossible.

By my memory, the only door that can trap you is the one in tidewater caverns if you jump off the ship. Then there is no return.

Yes, that one definitely should be an exception!

Oh. Didn't know that. Let me fix it.

What other sources work? Just to understand where to look for the problem.

Everything but the spell. The code that checks them begins at 0x43a4e9.

[tnevolin]

As an extreme example, a party of 4 Paladins would be restricted to Novice Perception, and some areas require 40 skill IIRC. Even with Psychic and Scout hirelings that's a tall order! Granted, every class can at least learn Perception in vanilla, so it's never literally impossible.

Ah, you mean this. There are plenty ways for people to hurt themselves.

By my memory, the only door that can trap you is the one in tidewater caverns if you jump off the ship. Then there is no return.

Yes, that one definitely should be an exception!

Why? A player should keep a backup save and learn to save before dungeon.

What other sources work? Just to understand where to look for the problem.

Everything but the spell. The code that checks them begins at 0x43a4e9.

Fixed it by recasting shield on each player.

[Tomsod]

Ah, you mean this. There are plenty ways for people to hurt themselves.

Yet one of my design guidelines is to avoid making such challenge parties impossible or unreasonably difficult (beyond what one can expect from playing four Knights, for example), so I care! I think the WIP version of my mod is in fact significantly more four-Knight-accessible than vanilla at this point, ha ha.

Why? A player should keep a backup save and learn to save before dungeon.

That's actually what the autosave already does, but I'd still rather not force anyone to reload. Depends on how much one is willing to babysit their players, I suppose.

Fixed it by recasting shield on each player.

This means it won't stack with the potion, which is probably for the best as MM7 has way too many half missile damage sources already.

[tnevolin]

Yet one of my design guidelines is to avoid making such challenge parties impossible or unreasonably difficult (beyond what one can expect from playing four Knights, for example), so I care! I think the WIP version of my mod is in fact significantly more four-Knight-accessible than vanilla at this point, ha ha.

Four Paladins can raise their perception to 10 each to combine to 40. Other option is to edit max perception required in game.
Which map requires 40?

That's actually what the autosave already does, but I'd still rather not force anyone to reload. Depends on how much one is willing to babysit their players, I suppose.

This is no different from wandering into dungeon unprepared and get slaughtered by monsters. We can make an exception, no biggie.

Fixed it by recasting shield on each player.

This means it won't stack with the potion, which is probably for the best as MM7 has way too many half missile damage sources already.

I believe most party-player spells behave this way: bless, heroism, ...

[Tomsod]

Four Paladins can raise their perception to 10 each to combine to 40. Other option is to edit max perception required in game.
Which map requires 40?

No, no, I was talking about vanilla and my mod, it's okay in yours precisely because of the combination feature.

The required perception per map is the 6th column of mapstats.txt, except you need to double it to get the required skill. Many endgame locations have 20 (= 40 skill), I just don't remember if they have notable secret doors.

I believe most party-player spells behave this way: bless, heroism, ...

In MM6, yes. In MM7, only Bless, Hammerhands, and Preservation mass-cast as four single-player buffs; many other party-wide spells have single-player duplicates, but those are only used for potions (and often stack with the spell version).

[cthscr]

Yet one of my design guidelines is to avoid making such challenge parties impossible or unreasonably difficult (beyond what one can expect from playing four Knights, for example), so I care! I think the WIP version of my mod is in fact significantly more four-Knight-accessible than vanilla at this point, ha ha.

Four Paladins can raise their perception to 10 each to combine to 40. Other option is to edit max perception required in game.
Which map requires 40?

[In vanilla MM7] There are checks in D17 and D35 (this one isn't a door but a timer) that requires GM 40 of Perception or DisarmTraps. Grep Grayface's decompiled scripts for 'CheckSkill'.

[Tomsod]

The first one requires GM 40 in Perception and Disarm Traps (on the same PC), so it's literally impossible to pass. Both of them only disable some trap damage, anyway.

[stuartmul]

The first one requires GM 40 in Perception and Disarm Traps (on the same PC), so it's literally impossible to pass. Both of them only disable some trap damage, anyway.

I agree with you

[phamlongtuan]

Hello, might I have possible for revamped gameplay, I think these implement can drastically change how game mechanic work.

1. Add feature of stamina, which acquire skill by default, everyone start with it, it becomes most used skill. Each point of this skill will add like Knight with 8 stamina each skill, sorcerer with 2 each skill, and so on.
Let illustrate with stamina, now you will need:
- Every physical action now requires stamina, attacking, shooting dodging, blocking, running, it is self generation skill. When stamina run out you become weak which halve attack accuracy can 2/3 damage, cannot run, but you can still open chest, identify, repair. When you're extreme negative stamina, you become paralysis (exhausted).
- Actions like identify, repair now also require stamina + time. And since it is bound by time, you can not do identify and repair while hostile creature nearby.

As you can see, implementation of stamina change game quite a lot, you are not able spawn max power and run like crazy anymore.

2. Repair become 2 part skill, it means who physical fighter can only repair physical part of it. For example, 58 AC plate become 0 when broken, when knight repair it becomes 58AC again, but not magical part, until repair by second time by druid. It is previously mentioned that now repair and identify will require stamina and time, it only works when no hostile around.

3. Should we have crossbow skill, in the end crossbow and bow are 2 different weapons, require different skill, crossbow should be slower, but as fast close to blaster, and more accuracy,

4. In weapon arsenal, scimitar and sword are different set of weapon. Should we have different set of skills now?

Thanks for your time ^^

[tnevolin]

Thank you for response.

1. Add feature of stamina, which acquire skill by default, everyone start with it, it becomes most used skill. Each point of this skill will add like Knight with 8 stamina each skill, sorcerer with 2 each skill, and so on.
Let illustrate with stamina, now you will need:
- Every physical action now requires stamina, attacking, shooting dodging, blocking, running, it is self generation skill. When stamina run out you become weak which halve attack accuracy can 2/3 damage, cannot run, but you can still open chest, identify, repair. When you're extreme negative stamina, you become paralysis (exhausted).
- Actions like identify, repair now also require stamina + time. And since it is bound by time, you can not do identify and repair while hostile creature nearby.

Is it some sort of action points or time units like in XCOM? It seems to be very far from original game mechanics and would be insanely difficult to implement.

Out of curiosity, how do you think it makes game better?

As you can see, implementation of stamina change game quite a lot, you are not able spawn max power and run like crazy anymore.

Oh. No doubt about it.

2. Repair become 2 part skill, it means who physical fighter can only repair physical part of it. For example, 58 AC plate become 0 when broken, when knight repair it becomes 58AC again, but not magical part, until repair by second time by druid. It is previously mentioned that now repair and identify will require stamina and time, it only works when no hostile around.

Same question: how does it make game better?

3. Should we have crossbow skill, in the end crossbow and bow are 2 different weapons, require different skill, crossbow should be slower, but as fast close to blaster, and more accuracy,

Same exactly question.

4. In weapon arsenal, scimitar and sword are different set of weapon. Should we have different set of skills now?

What is scimitar? Never saw it in game.

Thanks for your time ^^

Sure. I am glad to discuss any proposals.

Answering to all of your questions. It seems you want to build somewhat different game. It is possible but it does not intersect with my mod which intends to tune up existing mechanics with as least modification as possible.
I would suggest to build a different experience mod. You can achieve it either on top of vanilla or on top of my mod, whatever you feel better.

[phamlongtuan]

Thank you for response.

1. Add feature of stamina, which acquire skill by default, everyone start with it, it becomes most used skill. Each point of this skill will add like Knight with 8 stamina each skill, sorcerer with 2 each skill, and so on.
Let illustrate with stamina, now you will need:
- Every physical action now requires stamina, attacking, shooting dodging, blocking, running, it is self generation skill. When stamina run out you become weak which halve attack accuracy can 2/3 damage, cannot run, but you can still open chest, identify, repair. When you're extreme negative stamina, you become paralysis (exhausted).
- Actions like identify, repair now also require stamina + time. And since it is bound by time, you can not do identify and repair while hostile creature nearby.

Is it some sort of action points or time units like in XCOM? It seems to be very far from original game mechanics and would be insanely difficult to implement.

Out of curiosity, how do you think it makes game better?

As you can see, implementation of stamina change game quite a lot, you are not able spawn max power and run like crazy anymore.

Oh. No doubt about it.

2. Repair become 2 part skill, it means who physical fighter can only repair physical part of it. For example, 58 AC plate become 0 when broken, when knight repair it becomes 58AC again, but not magical part, until repair by second time by druid. It is previously mentioned that now repair and identify will require stamina and time, it only works when no hostile around.

Same question: how does it make game better?

3. Should we have crossbow skill, in the end crossbow and bow are 2 different weapons, require different skill, crossbow should be slower, but as fast close to blaster, and more accuracy,

Same exactly question.

4. In weapon arsenal, scimitar and sword are different set of weapon. Should we have different set of skills now?

What is scimitar? Never saw it in game.

Thanks for your time ^^

Sure. I am glad to discuss any proposals.

Answering to all of your questions. It seems you want to build somewhat different game. It is possible but it does not intersect with my mod which intends to tune up existing mechanics with as least modification as possible.
I would suggest to build a different experience mod. You can achieve it either on top of vanilla or on top of my mod, whatever you feel better.

Gooday, thanks for your respond. So I understand that my new implement will require vastly codding. So I will divide my reply in two part, least codding and more codding.

For least codding, I think for 25 years we have new graphic, new mouse look, some what bug fix, but those things add smooth gameplay, smooth experience. But not about game mechanic.

But for limitation, what can your mod does in changing, what are restrain If I want to go further, Im considering study to learn some mod bu the way.

[Tomsod]

What is scimitar? Never saw it in game.

I'm guessing it's cutlass? In MM8 there's Goblin Scimitar with cutlass dice, and speaking as an ESL, all these terms might be confusing (for a long time I was adamant they're "sabers" and even based some artifact fluff on it before double-checking the item class's English name).

One neat thing that can be done for different sword flavors is to make those with higher damage have a slightly lower attack bonus, so that none are 100% superior. Spears already have that, but for swords (and also maces, daggers and bows) there's always a clear winner. Not that it matters much, since in your mod weapon skill does all the heavy lifting.

[tnevolin]

Gooday, thanks for your respond. So I understand that my new implement will require vastly codding. So I will divide my reply in two part, least codding and more codding.

For least codding, I think for 25 years we have new graphic, new mouse look, some what bug fix, but those things add smooth gameplay, smooth experience. But not about game mechanic.

But for limitation, what can your mod does in changing, what are restrain If I want to go further, Im considering study to learn some mod bu the way.

Feel free to fork my mod and build on top of it or replace functionality completely as you see fit. There are no restrains, you can go as far as you wish completely rewriting the mechanins.

Regarding my goals/intentions - everything is explained in readme.

I agree the mechanics is quite antiquated. There are gazillions games with much more modern mechanics. I am playing (and modding) this game not because it is best nowadays but because I liked it when I was young. Just memories. Nothing else.

[Malekitsu]

Hey Tnevolin, nice to see you back
This looks very very good for an experience close to the original game but necessary rebalances, I actually think I'll play the new Amber Island project with this mod.
If you are interested I've expanded the homing missiles so that their homing works only if players are within a certain degree of the projectile direction.
This basically allows to dodge projectiles only if you run sideway and if projectile isn't too far, strafing/walking/moving diagonally doesn't work.
It also fixes projectiles not supposed to hit players, such as other units fighting each other.
Homing radius can be conveniently changed, to be either easier to dodge or be impossible to dodge, but in both cases you still solve the undesired projectile issues.

As for statistics effects I'd recommend this to have more fidelity for the early game and a more relevant character creation:

Code: Select all

function events.GetStatisticEffect(t)
	if t.Value<=21 then
		t.Result=(t.Value-13)/2
	else
		t.Result=math.floor(t.Value / 5)
	end       
end

[tnevolin]

Nice to see you too.

Projectiles shot at other monster have their target ID set. So they should not ever target the player.
There are some projectiles shot at nobody. These can home to player, like the fireball from goblin fort in Harmondale. I explicitly disabled it.

Agree about statistics. I was just lazy doing math.

[Malekitsu]

Nice to see you too.

Projectiles shot at other monster have their target ID set. So they should not ever target the player.
There are some projectiles shot at nobody. These can home to player, like the fireball from goblin fort in Harmondale. I explicitly disabled it.

Agree about statistics. I was just lazy doing math.

Ah, didn't notice, nice.

[kotgaf]

Hello. Nice mod. However, there are some questions:
some skill descriptions are old, not showing changes of your mod
some spells seem useless now. What I mean: bless gives you 5+1/skill to attack. It was huge difference in vanila, but now weapon skills grant you +8 attack at average. So 38+6 not a big deal. Shouldn't it be changed toward something like 8+ 1/2/3/4 per skill?
Stealing skill is totally useless. Having effective 26 skill value (expert x 4+9 skill points) and can't steal even 50 gold bottle.

Low level combat magic is almost useles. For example, 4 rank in spear boost damage of crude spear to a ~ 18-43 per hit, while 4 ranks in fire gives you pathetic 4-16 fire damage for 2 SP. Considiring monster's increased HP, it's nothing.
Bows are same. Without bonus damage, pure bow damage are too weak, and monsters are too fast. Didn't bother even learn it on the second game restart.
Also, monster's range attack are overbuffed. I mean, their damage and attack bonus. I can easily beat goblins in melee, but their arrows are too powerful. So the only realy answer to it is strong melee composition.
I think you should choose either fast speed or powerful range, but not both. Having horde of zombies sprinting and shooting at you at the same time is just annoying.
And spells should be buffed too, imo.
Some quests seem impossible now - druid shrine run, for example. Without scroll of invisibility and monster insane speed you'll be pulverized in the blink of an eye in Avelee(maybe Berserk will do a thing, have to try). And you will not have insivibility well, because you doing druid quest for Air Mastery.

Also, new class-skill rank table can be very helpful to plan party

BUGs:
unarmed damage bonus doesn't apply to unarmed damage. Only half of it added while holding weapon
Identify simple bow costs 1950 gold for level 2 party. It doesn't seem right.
Mace user never had paralaze effects. This is strange, even 9% paralyze should have occurred more often
No elemental resistance for expert+ leather users.
Guards, while fighting with enemies shoot arrows at YOU