Armageddon spell: is it broken? How would you change it?

[Tomsod]

There's a common sentiment that Armageddon incentivizes degenerate gameplay wherein the party just stands in place repeatedly casting the spell until everything is dead, and in the end it hurts the player as well because it's much less fun compared to actual combat. In MM6 at least, many outdoor monsters were immune to the spell, but in 7-8 it wasn't resistible at all before patch v2.5 fixed it, and even now, Dark resistance is very rare! Not to mention that the penalty for nuking peasants is also somehow missing in 7. With that in mind, I've tried to nerf Armageddon in several ways in my mod, but I think at this point I've overdone it and it's just a worse version of Souldrinker now. Coming back to it again, I honestly can't decide what I even want to do with this spell! Maybe having absolute power of destruction over Harmondale goblins actually IS fun and I'm overthinking it?

So I ask of your opinions on this matter. Do you use Armageddon often? Do you think you shouldn't? Would it be more fun if it were different? Different how? Was is better in MM6? Have someone already fixed it in some mod without me noticing? How would YOU fix it? Please share your wisdom, I appreciate any and all ideas.

[Anubis]

I honestly don't think Armageddon is broken at all in the games. I rarely ever used it in MM6 or MM7. I might've used it in Evenmorn Island or Barrow Downs, but I never did it for the XP. I did it so I could interact with the torch contests and didn't want to risk getting one-shotted by the enemies there.

By the time you get Armageddon, I really don't think it helps much. Sure, it might clear Nighon or something.

With Souldrinker, I thought it was fine and it shouldn't have been touched/nerfed at all. I think MM6 and MM7 was honestly fine as it is.

I think people should be free to play how they want to play, if anything, and not corral them into specific playstyles or block them from doing anything. That's why I'm a little annoyed that some of GrayFace's patches affect gameplay in some form, such as when one of his patches dumbed the enemies down in MM6. I have no idea what was changed but the enemies have different AI and act dumber than usual and it makes the game easier.

[raekuul]

Now you see me, I have the exact opposite problem: everything that I'd want to use Armageddon against is immune to it! Or indoors. Or immune and indoors. So my lua solution is the exact opposite from yours: make MM6 Armageddon deal energy damage instead of magic damage. Still doesn't solve the Indoors issue but at least now I can chip away at Dragonsand/Hermit's Isle/Paradise Valley.

With MM7, reputation is regional rather than global - nuke Erathia and you get a lot of fines to have to pay in Erathia, but by the time you can cast Armageddon you won't need to visit Queen Catherine any more so the penalties are moot.

[Tomsod]

With Souldrinker, I thought it was fine and it shouldn't have been touched/nerfed at all. I think MM6 and MM7 was honestly fine as it is.

No, I mean I made Armageddon pretty much localized, only doing significant damage to nearby monsters, only to then realize that Souldrinker already does it, and better. As the strongest spell of the strongest school, Souldrinker is fine.

With MM7, reputation is regional rather than global - nuke Erathia and you get a lot of fines to have to pay in Erathia, but by the time you can cast Armageddon you won't need to visit Queen Catherine any more so the penalties are moot.

Actually, unlike reputation, fines ARE global so you can be jailed while returning the Oscillation Overthruster. But yeah, reputation in MM7 becomes meaningless after you get enough money. Having NPCs snub you like in MM6 could make it more relevant, perhaps?

[Anubis]

Oh, are you talking about actually changing it for a mod of yours? I'd have no opinion in that case.

If we're talking about Vanilla MM7, I'd just beeline straight to Shrapmetal, Sacrifice, and Souldrinker. I couldn't see any reason to use Armageddon since by the time you get to the Pit, Armageddon doesn't seem worth using on any overworld maps. I'd rather keep the NPC's alive instead and sacrifice them via Sacrifice/Souldrinker.

[Gray Magic Expert]

I think that Armageddon is mostly fine as it is.

To truly clear the whole high-level map using armageddon only, you must bring the whole team of dark magic casters - and if you have such a party, then you have enough tools to clear the map 'normally': between souldrinker, dragon breath, meteor/star showers, loyd beacon, and/or full arsenal of powerful healing magic, there is enough power to destroy every outdoor location.

Only problem I can see with Armageddon - spamming "rest until dawn" so the monsters would not heal their hp to full, while you refresh the Armageddon cast limit. I think, the best solution would be to allow the monsters to heal on outdoor maps, if the party spends too much time away from them (in the green danger area, basically).

And clearing low level locations using Armageddon is completely fair: you just use a powerful spell to save time on a trivial task. Similar thing to using Flight in Harmondale/Ravenshore/Castle Ironfist towns: you can do everything without the spell, but using the spell is much faster.

[Tomsod]

Only problem I can see with Armageddon - spamming "rest until dawn" so the monsters would not heal their hp to full, while you refresh the Armageddon cast limit. I think, the best solution would be to allow the monsters to heal on outdoor maps, if the party spends too much time away from them (in the green danger area, basically).

You know what? This solution is actually perfect. Thank you, it will indeed make degenerate behavior that I described impossible, but the spell will still be useful otherwise. There is indeed nothing wrong with killing weak monsters using it, since by the late game it's not very engaging either way. Although I suppose you could get several Armageddon scrolls pretty early, but I'd like people to use more scrolls so it's still a net gain to me!

[Tress]

Is that AI generated response?
Anyway as for armaggedon - who cares, outdoor map clearing by that level hardly is ever issue aside for some speedruning stuff. If exploit of "waiting" and monsters not regenerating is removed it doesnt really matter that much. Either monsters are too weak to be of concern , or they are too much hp for 100 -200 dmg to matter, not to mention outdoor maps hardly matter by level you get it.

[Pol]

Is that AI generated response?

It can be. But we will see that with other posts.

[Tomsod]

In the end, I just implemented the monster healing thing in my mod like Gray Magic Expert suggested. It's probably enough.

Is that AI generated response?

It can be. But we will see that with other posts.

It most certainly is, we have regular posts by new accounts that contain AI-rehashed older posts and spam links in small letters. Is it possible to detect them by account age and the link font size, kinda like in this article?

[Pol]

It most certainly is, we have regular posts by new accounts that contain AI-rehashed older posts and spam links in small letters. Is it possible to detect them by account age and the link font size, kinda like in this article?

Thanks for the link, that's not bad. But it's insufficient. In previous version we used much better protection, silly, that's not longer possible.

In the incriminated post there's not link, at least yet. And there's no way how to differ someone not speaking correctly in english from AI with 100% certainty. That's why next posts will decide.

[Tomsod]

In the incriminated post there's not link, at least yet. And there's no way how to differ someone not speaking correctly in english from AI with 100% certainty. That's why next posts will decide.

There is now, isn't there?

geometry dash subzero

I noticed sometimes they add the link later via post edit. But that's even more telling! Unless phpbb has no way to react to post edits, of course. I agree that trying to tell them apart by wording is hopeless, though.

[raekuul]

you mean stuff like "can only cast so many times a day" and "also hurts the party"?

EDIT: Oh, you're one of those fancy spambots that edits in the spam after the fact so that it doesn't get caught on first contact.