Elemental Mod for MM7 -- v3.1 holiday release!

[rampage77t]

Hello, keep trying this fantastic mod and I don't know if it could be that the requirement to be Grand Master in Merchant has an error, I understand that you have to have a good reputation in all cities to get it, and even then the npc doesn't let me be Grand Master. Or maybe I misunderstood the requirement.

[Tomsod]

Hi, Tomsod!
Excellent skill changes:) I always wanted someone to make changes to dodging and unarmed skills in a way just you did:)).
Evading incoming attack perk should be connected to dodge from the beginning- is more logical that dogde gives chance to evade than unarmed, which supose to be typically offensive skill, and now thanks to you it is.
Monk is a trully killer now:)

Thank you. Yes, I've tried to make Monks better, at least after the second promotion. In the early game they still suck, though.

I just wonder if your changes(not only monk's skills but also shield GM perk)could be implemented to Rodril's Merge project.

It's not as simple as copying and pasting the code, as Merge is a mod of a different game written in a different language, but the changes themselves aren't too complicated, so if enough people like the redone skills in my mod, maybe Merge devs can be convinced to port them.

I have question for you- would it possible to change master mace skill effect from "stun" to "can be use in left/other hand" ? I think stun is very simillar to paralaze effect, and having paralaze makes stun rather uselles . I also always wanted to have dual-wielding blunt warrior (paladin in MM7 or troll in MM8) especially that there is no two-handed mace/hammer neither in MM7 nor MM8.

It's not impossible, but I don't like this idea. Dual-wielding in MM7 is associated with "agile" weapons like swords and daggers that provide few other bonuses, and mace is not. Besides, stun and paralysis are quite different: stun moves the monster out of melee range, for instance, also it's available earlier and to more classes. And because the chances to stun and paralyze are separate and usually low, one does not devalue the other, as even if you don't paralyze the enemy, you still may stun them, which is something. Finally, FWIW, one of the new artifacts is a two-handed hammer, so that's something.

Hello, keep trying this fantastic mod and I don't know if it could be that the requirement to be Grand Master in Merchant has an error, I understand that you have to have a good reputation in all cities to get it, and even then the npc doesn't let me be Grand Master. Or maybe I misunderstood the requirement.

Specifically, you need to have 5 or more reputation in: Harmondale, Erathia, Tularean, Deyja/Pit, Bracada/Celeste, Avlee, Tatalia, Barrows/Stone City, and Nighon. (Also a Master skill of 10 and an eligible class, of course.) Simplest way to do that would be donating to all temples a bunch.

[Mortis]

I have question for you- would it possible to change master mace skill effect from "stun" to "can be use in left/other hand" ? I think stun is very simillar to paralaze effect, and having paralaze makes stun rather uselles . I also always wanted to have dual-wielding blunt warrior (paladin in MM7 or troll in MM8) especially that there is no two-handed mace/hammer neither in MM7 nor MM8.

It's not impossible, but I don't like this idea. Dual-wielding in MM7 is associated with "agile" weapons like swords and daggers that provide few other bonuses, and mace is not. Besides, stun and paralysis are quite different: stun moves the monster out of melee range, for instance, also it's available earlier and to more classes. And because the chances to stun and paralyze are separate and usually low, one does not devalue the other, as even if you don't paralyze the enemy, you still may stun them, which is something. Finally, FWIW, one of the new artifacts is a two-handed hammer, so that's something.

Thank you for your answer.
As i see, we have different point of view on this matter. Now when we are talking about dual wielding you are forced to have dagger or sword in the second hand. In my opinion bigger diversity of choices would be better for MM7 and MM8, especially that now the only alternative for sword/dagger in second hand is shield.
Agile warrior conception is good, but why this must be the only option? No all classes can reach master sword and sword's damages can't be increased without armsmaster at master level, which is available also for few. Dual -dagger thief or vampire is ideal class for agille warrior, you don't have to learn armsmaster skill at all, because developing dagger skills gives you attack and damage bonus for both hands. However, especially in MM8, for me trolls and minotaurs as mighty strong heroes look silly having mace/axe in one and dagger in second hand.
In MM8 also game calculation for both weapon's damages(from one and second hand) is different. Having GM mace/axe skill at level 20 and higher you do the same amount of damages with or without sword in second hand. In this case using swords in other hand have sense only when those sword have special bonuses for skills or enchantments like elemental damages, undead slaying or other.
As for the maces, fo first few times i played both MM7 and MM8 I underestimated them. I thought sword and dagger are cooler and can be dual-wielded. When I tried it however i saw how powerfull they are. No need for armsmaster fo getting better damages, and after 20 skill level you paralyze very often. What is important here, there is no monster immune to paralyze, so you stop both weak goblins and powerfull dragons.
The last thing to idea of diversity- stun is already effect for staff skill, no need to mirror it for maces.
Have a good day:)

[Tomsod]

Yes, you have a point that swords and daggers aren't the strongest weapons and offhand maces would be more powerful. But that's precisely why the former two can be dual-wielded and maces and other strong weapons can't! It's a very beautiful balance decision inherited from MM6. See, dual-wielding is the strongest melee option for anyone who can learn it. But to compensate, it requires a skill point investment.
In the early game almost anyone can learn Expert Dagger and put one in the left hand. But daggers are otherwise weak, especially before you can get cool enchantments and get rid of armor penalties (to capitalize on daggers' speed), so you'll want to use another weapon in the right hand, and that means you should learn two different skills for an optimal melee build. That means spending more skill points than you'd need for a single spear or poleaxe.
Later some classes (more in my mod, especially with the Goblin bonus) can advance to Master Sword, which gives the best offhand option. But, as you noted, swords don't get a bonus to damage! Which means you'll want to also learn another weapon skill, be it mace or spear or axe, and the game again nudges you towards spending more skill points. MM7/8 broke it a little, as equipping a sword in the left hand forfeited the skill bonus to damage, like you noted, but I've restored this to the MM6 way in my mod.
Now, if we allowed dual-wielding maces or axes, the player wouldn't feel the need to develop a second skill as those two are already strong and self-sufficient on their own. Which means the optimal melee build wouldn't cost extra, which would ruin the balance. And I try very hard not to ruin the balance! So that's why I don't like this idea.
As for stun from two different skills -- while it is a bit repetitive, it makes sense to me as they're both blunt weapons. In any case, I've made stun much better in 3.0, so forgive me for desiring to show off my work.

[Mortis]

Dual- wielding balanced and requires many skills to invest? Daggers weak ? I dont think so. Of course if you compare single dagger to any other weapon in terms of damage yes, they are weak but only then. The daggers dont care about armor penalties, because they are fast even without enchantments and most of classes using them wear light armor with low penalty. So reaching expert dagger level gives you already dual weapons that have better damage than any single other weapon and having expert in leather reduces your armor penalty to 0. Both of those, as you mentioned are available in early game. Moreover, at dagger master level you get extra bonus to damage for both hands, and GM level allows you completely skip armsmaster skill. So by developing one skill to expert level(leather) and ONLY one skill constantly(dagger) you get the most lethal combination which definitevely is NOT balanced, espacially in your mod, where there is also critical damage. Investing points in armsmaster is not a question of balance, but is obligatory if you want to have more damage with swords, because there is no other way to increase them. The strenght of maces lies not in their damage, because they are smaller than those from axes and sword and only little better than dagger. They are also slow, not as axes but slow.
Their strenght is paralyze, but before you can really get benefit from it you need to reach at least 15 skill level, which cant be done in early game.
That is why even allowing dual wielding maces you dont get immediately they best aspect, the same thing with axes.
My point is- you should have free choice in dual-wielding.
1) Want agile, swift lethal asassin warrior? Sure, take dual dagger option.
2)you like sword fighter? Sure, get sword skill with armsmaster,
3)want combo of sword in off hand and mace, axe, spear in main hand? Sure, why not.
4) you DON'T want or like daggers and swords and still want to dual wield weapons? Sure, you should have that opportunity with two maces, two axes or combo mace/axe.
So much and only so much.

[Tomsod]

The daggers dont care about armor penalties, because they are fast even without enchantments and most of classes using them wear light armor with low penalty.

Any MM7 class except clerics can advance daggers to Expert. Most of these classes can, and arguably should, wear at least chain, because in early game every bit of armor helps.

So reaching expert dagger level gives you already dual weapons that have better damage than any single other weapon

Slightly better, yes, assuming good daggers. But my point was that if you want to get significantly better, you'll have to use a stronger weapon for the right hand, which means two skills. Also note that even to get to the "slightly better" milestone you still need to invest nine skill points.

Moreover, at dagger master level you get extra bonus to damage for both hands, and GM level allows you completely skip armsmaster skill.

The Master Dagger perk was insignificant in vanilla. In my mod it matters IF the total weapon damage is high, which may not be the case if both weapons are daggers.
GM Dagger is unique to late-game Thieves, and even Thieves should invest in Armsmaster, because it can be boosted by items, unlike weapon skills. Most classes cannot boost dagger damage through its skill. Also I was talking about early-midgame.

Investing points in armsmaster is not a question of balance, but is obligatory if you want to have more damage with swords, because there is no other way to increase them.

You can use a mace, spear, or axe for the right hand. Their skills grant the bonus damage even with an offhand sword with my mod. This is, in fact, the optimal way to use sword at the Master level.

The strenght of maces lies not in their damage, because they are smaller than those from axes and sword and only little better than dagger. They are also slow, not as axes but slow.

Maces are actually faster than swords or axes, on par with spears and only second to daggers. While base damage of the best mace is slightly lower than that of the best (one-handed) sword or axe, the speed advantage results in about the same DPR. However, they get bonus damage at Expert, which is a very strong ability, and is what I was referring to. As soon as you can spare nine skill points, maces are solid.

Their strenght is paralyze, but before you can really get benefit from it you need to reach at least 15 skill level, which cant be done in early game.
That is why even allowing dual wielding maces you dont get immediately they best aspect, the same thing with axes.

But see, if with one mace paralysis begins to shine at 15% chance or so, then with two they would already be OP at 10 skill! Same thing with axes. This is just another reason why it would ruin balance.

[Mortis]

The Master Dagger perk was insignificant in vanilla. In my mod it matters IF the total weapon damage is high, which may not be the case if both weapons are daggers.
GM Dagger is unique to late-game Thieves, and even Thieves should invest in Armsmaster, because it can be boosted by items, unlike weapon skills. Most classes cannot boost dagger damage through its skill. Also I was talking about early-midgame.

You can invest points in dagger from the beginning , so it is possible to get GM level with no 10 but higher value, which gives you automatically 10+ bonus to damage. To start counting damage from armsmaster you need first to get 7 rank of this skill( means investing lots of points which can be used to boost dagger skill instead) and have master level, which generates additional costs. As for items with armsmaster bonus, max value is 12 and they can be obtained as random high level loot from dragons or by enchant item spell. Both options are available rather in mid or endgame(enough strong team or GM Water mage) and chances for getting them are quite small.
I dont agree with you about vanila dagger master level. With my dual dagger thief I got sometimes double standard damage in fight thanks to master dagger effect and this is incomparable with any other weapons damage.
In your mod which I am playing now, i have monk, paladin, druid and archer. All with second promotions. Monk have 10 points of unarmed and dogde + 10 boost from hands of master artifact .
His damage are : standard 52-54, crit chance 10%, average dmg per round 108?!
Paladin with Clover mace and 10 points GM mace: standard 38-54, crit. 28%, average dmg per round 63,2
Archer(no sword, no armsmaster) with two daggers- exquisite long dagger and mage dagger/ master dagger level rank 7- standard 27-33, crit. 27%, average dmg per round 88,6.
All characters at 32 level. I fought with undeads, dragons, titans, minotaurs, elementals, and as I see the most damages comes from monk and archer.
I dont know however how to read those values. Monk with only 10%crit almost double his damage, paladin has the same crit as archer but deals only 1,5 times higher damage while archer almost tripple his ?!

[Tomsod]

You can invest points in dagger from the beginning , so it is possible to get GM level with no 10 but higher value, which gives you automatically 10+ bonus to damage. To start counting damage from armsmaster you need first to get 7 rank of this skill( means investing lots of points which can be used to boost dagger skill instead) and have master level, which generates additional costs.

Actually, Armsmaster indirectly boosts damage even at Normal rank, by reducing recovery. And nothing stops you from investing into Armsmaster from beginning, too. Also, again, Master Armsmaster is available much earlier than GM Dagger.

As for items with armsmaster bonus, max value is 12 and they can be obtained as random high level loot from dragons or by enchant item spell. Both options are available rather in mid or endgame(enough strong team or GM Water mage) and chances for getting them are quite small.

Nobody says you must have a +12 item! While it's nice, a +7 or so is easier to find and will already double the skill's effect. Consider this: if you're a Thief with Master 7 Dagger, then you can spend 27 skill points to get GM 10 Dagger for +10 damage, +3 attack, +3% crit chance, or use those same 27 points (plus a +7 to Armsmaster item) to get Master 7 Armsmaster for +14 damage, +14 attack, and +6 recovery (with Normal 1 and that item you already had +8 recovery, now it's +14). The latter is clearly better! And further upgrading Armsmaster will cost you less because it's only at 7.

I dont agree with you about vanila dagger master level. With my dual dagger thief I got sometimes double standard damage in fight thanks to master dagger effect and this is incomparable with any other weapons damage.

I dunno, man. In vanilla the triple damage only affected the dagger's listed damage itself, and best daggers have only around 10 damage, so it was +20 damage if it triggered. This shouldn't really double your damage (unless it's also 20), so it probably was something else.

In your mod which I am playing now, i have monk, paladin, druid and archer. All with second promotions. Monk have 10 points of unarmed and dogde + 10 boost from hands of master artifact .
His damage are : standard 52-54, crit chance 10%, average dmg per round 108?!
Paladin with Clover mace and 10 points GM mace: standard 38-54, crit. 28%, average dmg per round 63,2
Archer(no sword, no armsmaster) with two daggers- exquisite long dagger and mage dagger/ master dagger level rank 7- standard 27-33, crit. 27%, average dmg per round 88,6.
All characters at 32 level. I fought with undeads, dragons, titans, minotaurs, elementals, and as I see the most damages comes from monk and archer.
I dont know however how to read those values. Monk with only 10%crit almost double his damage, paladin has the same crit as archer but deals only 1,5 times higher damage while archer almost tripple his ?!

There's also recovery time, which affects how fast you can attack. You can check it by right-clicking at the attack value, above damage. Apparently your monk has two attacks per round (around 50 recovery), archer slightly more (45 or so), but the paladin has barely more than one attack per round (about 90 recovery), which is why his DPR is so low. My advice: find a Lightweight plate armor, they're invaluable for paladins, and equip an Armsmaster booster to lower recovery further. Also get Expert Plate and Expert Shield if you haven't already. Paladins can be pretty strong, but only if you don't neglect recovery.

[Eksekk]

But see, if with one mace paralysis begins to shine at 15% chance or so, then with two they would already be OP at 10 skill! Same thing with axes. This is just another reason why it would ruin balance.

I agree it's probably not balanced and hard to fully fix that and overall a pain to implement in a good way, but a simple fix would be only counting one axe/mace for special effects chance calculation, even if wielding two. The same applies to damage from skill, recovery times etc. Perhaps if both mace and axe would be equipped, then slightly lower the chance of either triggering special effect. Or impose a small recovery penalty.

Any MM7 class except clerics can advance daggers to Expert. Most of these classes can, and arguably should, wear at least chain, because in early game every bit of armor helps.

I don't think it matters that much. I personally start to wear armor/shields not sooner than after getting expert, and in case of chain sometimes after getting master, and in case of plate always only after getting master. The recovery penalty is just too big handicap, and I don't notice increased armor very much. In early game you can make some of it up with stone skin. Later on the armor/enchantment AC bonuses become much bigger than spell effect, but also monster attack bonus is increased.

There's also recovery time, which affects how fast you can attack. You can check it by right-clicking at the attack value, above damage. Apparently your monk has two attacks per round (around 50 recovery), archer slightly more (45 or so), but the paladin has barely more than one attack per round (about 90 recovery), which is why his DPR is so low. My advice: find a Lightweight plate armor, they're invaluable for paladins, and equip an Armsmaster booster to lower recovery further. Also get Expert Plate and Expert Shield if you haven't already. Paladins can be pretty strong, but only if you don't neglect recovery.

Seconded, during my playthrough (this was before multiplicative bonus though) recovery was the single most important stat for my party. My paladin wore lightweight plate, most basic one, because I couldn't find better with that bonus and that recovery was too important. Similarly, as soon as I got swift mace I switched to it.

Also, when you get ability to get light/dark spells, use it! Day of the Gods has increased effect due to changed stat breakpoints, and will work well even on expert. That can shave about 8-10 points off your melee recovery for free.

[Tomsod]

I don't think it matters that much. I personally start to wear armor/shields not sooner than after getting expert, and in case of chain sometimes after getting master, and in case of plate always only after getting master. The recovery penalty is just too big handicap, and I don't notice increased armor very much. In early game you can make some of it up with stone skin. Later on the armor/enchantment AC bonuses become much bigger than spell effect, but also monster attack bonus is increased.

Depends on the play style, I suppose. For me, finding good body armor is much easier than helmets etc. (e.g. you can reliably get 18 AC chain from castle trash heaps if you reload), so its impact is significant. And a recovery penalty is easier to weather if it's already high (admittedly, it's more true in vanilla than in my mod past recovery nerf, but still). And since spells aren't slowed by armor, if you find a good wand or just stock on magic potions, you can armor up all you want without a downside. But I'm glad you find robes useful! I remember seeing everyone in your saves wearing one.

[Tomsod]

An update: apparently Thievery is thoroughly bugged; long story short, neither theft nor backstabs check the skill properly. Also, HP and SP regen doesn't work on robes (thanks, aniserg). Await a bugfix release, especially if you have a Thief. Maybe I'll delay it until the next MMExt release, if that's soon enough (need to fix compatibility).

[Tomsod]

Another bug fixed in the upcoming release: all zombie PCs were considered human. Also, lich-zombie interaction was wonky.

For instance, did you know you can legitimately restore the living portrait to a lich in vanilla MM7? To do so, target them with a reanimate spell while dead. It will not produce an effect, so revive them at a church instead, and they're human again! (or elf etc.) I wish I knew that while playing Maestro Mod, as I remember being of opinion that four skeletons is way too many skeletons.

[Tomsod]

Almost done with 3.1! Fun MM7 fact I've uncovered: recovery from actions (attacks, spells, etc.) in the realtime mode is 2.133 times slower than in turn-based. Apparently it's intentional (I tried to fix it and realtime combat became too fast to handle!) The moral is: if you e.g. want to cast as many Enchant Items as you can before the shops close, switch to turn-based mode.

[Tomsod]

Merry holidays! I just so happened to finish the next release of the mod today. Think of it as a late Christmas present, or perhaps as an early New Year present if that's how you celebrate.

Anyway, v3.1 is a minor release, so it's mostly bugfixes, balance tweaks, cosmetic changes, and a sundry minor features like three new item enchantments or a safe deposit box at banks. The important thing is that you can upgrade from v3.0 without losing your saves, and probably should, if only for the bugfixes. The Hall under the Hill should be reset on your next visit, as I messed with that dungeon. (If it doesn't reset, and you experience glitches, please write me about it! I'm not sure how well it works, to be frank.) Otherwise you'll hardly notice the version change. Unless you look in the changelog where it's all spelled out, ha ha.

Download from here! Just unpack the archive into the game directory. If you already have v3.0 of the mod there, it'll probably be OK to overwrite it. Although if you're starting a new game, it's still better to use a fresh MM7 install! As before, you'll also need the latest (2.5.7) version of MM7Patch. MMExtension is not necessary, but if you want to use it, I've improved compatibility with the upcoming version 2.3 (at the very least, it doesn't immediately crash), and 2.2 is still supported, too.

I've also (slightly) updated the party creation guide and the new artifact list, if you're not afraid of spoilers. (Don't bother re-reading them if you're upgrading from v3.0, the changes are really minor.)

And now I'll start on version 4! It's a long road, but I aim for it to be the last one, so hopefully the mod will be completely finished by the early-mid 2024? Depends on many factors, of course, but that's my intention. Cheers!

EDIT: there's a tiny new release (v3.1.1) with a couple bugfixes, so I updated the links.
EDIT2: another minor release (v3.1.2), same story.

[Kaltenberg]

Very good ideas, you can get a lot of inspiration from it!

[rampage77t]

I started a new game to be able to test the new things of this update, everything works correctly except the elixir of life spell (formerly cure disease) I wanted to test if the drunken cure worked using the fountain that is in Deyja near the church , and the healing is done but doing so drastically changes the character to one of those found when creating the party by default. For example in the first character slot I have a female elf but when I use the elixir of life spell to cure drunkenness she transforms into a male goblin. The second one changes to a male human, the third to a female dwarf and the fourth character I have is a female lich and using the spell she goes back to how she was before I promoted her to a lich. I only report it to know if it only happens to me or if it is a small error so that it can be corrected. Regardless, it's still an outstanding mod and I'm looking forward to the next version.

[Tomsod]

D'oh, thanks for catching this! I've always used the default party to speed up the game start, so I never noticed the problem. The bug is indeed very easily fixable, here's the fixed mod DLL that you can put into ExeMods directory to remedy it.

[rampage77t]

D'oh, thanks for catching this! I've always used the default party to speed up the game start, so I never noticed the problem. The bug is indeed very easily fixable, here's the fixed mod DLL that you can put into ExeMods directory to remedy it.

Perfect, thank you very much, with this mod the game is more replayable, congratulations for your enormous work!!

[Tomsod]

Thanks. BTW, do you have any feedback? Constructive criticism, new ideas, what you did or didn't like, what you find inconvenient etc. I understand you're pretty deep into the game by now, surely you must have opinions.

[rampage77t]

Well yes, since version 3.0 I played a few games until completing the game, I don't see anything that this mod of the original game hasn't improved, maybe a little annoying that much more exp is required to advance in level, in fact I finished the game before to reach level 50, but the skill points they give you make up for it a lot so I'm not complaining.

I loved being able to create black potions without having to be a grandmaster in alchemy, otherwise I always had to create a druid to do it. As for the pure potions that increase your stats, if I'm upset that it doesn't increase you by 50 points as before, since sometimes it increases me less than 20 points and I can't use it again.

Another thing that happened to me in a game and I could never do it again, was to hire an npc in the stable that helped me to travel to places with less travel days and an inventory space, how does that work? I did it in Erathia's stable.

For now this is what occurs to me about the things that I notice the most, and ideas for now I can't think of, I still have to find all the new relics that you added, and since there is now a limit of relics per game I have to replay it to get them LOL. Perhaps an idea could be like in the MM7Rev4modR1 mod of using enchanted staffs that occupy a place to shoot from a distance, since for example the clerics, with the exception of the elves who have the bow, always have no damage at a distance throughout the game, and that would be a way that I could do it.

By the way, playing the original game many years ago, it also occurred to me to turn the lich character into a human, I don't remember exactly how it was but I think my character died, I cured him in nighon being a zombie, and in another church I cured him and he became human again, maybe I'm getting confused and I actually revived him as a zombie with the reanimate spell as you mentioned before, I thought it was just a bug lol.