Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 05.11.2023]

[UnknownHuman]

Sad to say the Save files error when loading." Cant load file! in file: D:\mm7src\mm8\mmviii\code\Odmap.cpp at line number: 1016 "

Have map loaded after this message? Have you tried to load old savegame, where monlimit was not changed? Game supposed to send this message, because altering amount of spawns also altering save game size, which old save games does not fit, so game have to reset existing monsters data on the loaded map. Max amount of monsters should be constant.
Yes, top two, first is total amount, second is max amount of active monsters (if this limit is 30 and you have 50 monsters around you, 20 of them will stand still and wait untill you'll kill (make unactive) some).

Hi there.
I started a totally new game. Then when I died I loaded in my save game I created a few seconds ago, then the game goes to desktop and pops up that error message.

Also, since I have your attention for a second
Do you think its possible to create a Merc file (like spawn, separate) so that there is always 1-4 mercs per place 100% random ?
I always get a few boring Mercs and then after playing a while no new ones

The huge slow down is because so many are "active/after you". If its possible to lower that number it would go fast again.
Dont think this game uses multicores .

Thanks for everything, having so much fun, like when we play Skulltag with my massive map I built with 7600 monsters

[Xfing]

I also think some MM8 classes should be amended with skills they don't normally get to learn in MM8, as those are no longer there. I'm referring particularly to Stealing, Unarmed and Dodging.

I believe Dark Elves should have expert unarmed and dodging and at least base stealing, trolls should have at least expert in unarmed and same goes for Minos.

Like I wrote above, I'm also concerned about clerics not gaining any unlocks while promoted to Priests due to MM8's single promotion mechanic. They should be capped at their MM7 expertise levels even in Jadame, or simply start out as priests there anyway (Necromancers are meant to be Wizard-level anyway).

[Daedros]

So, crazy ambitious ideas. After beating the M&M7 quest line in this merge, i thought it would be a cool idea to give actual benefits to the different endings in M&M 7.
For example, if you took the Dark Path and beat the game, restoring the Heavenly Forge, you'd be able to give Stalt Ore to Kastore to craft you Blaster Rifles, 1 Stalt Ore=1 Blaster Rifle. This way you'd be able to acquire Blaster Rifles for all of your characters, even the ones at the Adventurer's Inn. Normally, you can only acquire a limited number of Blaster Rifles from the Lincoln, which you can't travel to again after you beat the game (unless you set a Lloyd's Beacon in there and keep it refreshed until the map resets).
Would also be awesome if Blasters could be put in the Bow slot instead of the Melee slots, that way you could swing your melee weapon in melee range (which oftentimes hits harder than the Blaster, especially with Heroism), but shoot your Blaster at range.

If you chose the Light Path and beat the game, an item would be placed in your inventory that when used outside it teleports you to a new area called "Web Station Beta 5". Web Station Beta 5 would have 3 rooms that have portals to all the overland maps in Enroth, Antagarich and Jadame. For example, the Jadame room would have portal access to all the usual Town Portal areas, such as Dagger Wound Islands, Ravenshore, Alvar, Shadowspire, Balthazar's Lair and Regna (if you've been there before), but would also give access to areas such as Garrote Gorge, Murmurwoods, and Ironsand Desert. You could even teleport to the Plane Between Planes so long as you have the Conflux Key, even if Escaton's Crystal has been destroyed (which normally makes the Plane Between Planes inaccessible afterwards).

edit: also im missing the artifact from mm7 - minotaurs axe https://www.mightandmagicworld.de/mm7/A ... nAxt.shtml - almost every other artefact/relic has popped up in dragonsand/mm6 by now, but this one i havent even seen - or is it a mm7 location (labyrinth?) find only item?

Yeah, that axe has a fixed spawn location, in fact it only drops from a single Minotaur Lord in the Labyrinth in Nighon. MM7 had plenty of those types of items, you can tell them by:
- them having a value, but not being sellable in shops
- not requiring identification

MM8 only had two items like this, the Mace of the Sun and the Noblebone Bow. MM7 had plenty more, though their displayed values were much lower (not that it matters, considering they weren't sellable).

M&M 8 actually had numerous fixed Artifact spawns that would respawn with the map, so you could acquire multiples of them. Mace of the Sun, Terminus, Ring of the Planes, Glomenthal, Foulfang, Elderaxe, Scepter of Kings, Judicious Measure, Snake and Noblebone Bow (although this could also appear once at any random Artifact location as well). Several quest items that were also Artifact quality would respawn at fixed locations, such as Eclipse, Ebonest, Axe of Balthazar, and Sword of Whistlebone.

I also think some MM8 classes should be amended with skills they don't normally get to learn in MM8, as those are no longer there. I'm referring particularly to Stealing, Unarmed and Dodging.

I believe Dark Elves should have expert unarmed and dodging and at least base stealing, trolls should have at least expert in unarmed and same goes for Minos.

The Stealing skill as well as the Crime/Reputation system isn't fully functional yet.

[Rodril]

Cant load file! in file: D:\mm7src\mm8\mmviii\code\Odmap.cpp at line number: 1016

Should be fixed now, redownload script, please: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pow0wuu0m9x2t ... a.off?dl=0

Do you think its possible to create a Merc file (like spawn, separate) so that there is always 1-4 mercs per place 100% random ? I always get a few boring Mercs and then after playing a while no new ones

I think it should be solved in other way. Do you hire them? Being hired, they won't disappear at least for a year. I'll look into it.

- Is there a guide of sorts that explains how things work now? Like a FAQ to help the player understand what to do, where can hirelings be found, what happens when you dismiss them while not on Jadame etc.

Except tips in first post - no. In game, after certain amount of exp gained by first character, you'll get clues how to travel between continents and why shall you do it.

- Was the class balance altered in any way?

A bit and only in terms of available skills. Mostly to bring MM8 characters in line with MM7-6 ones (Lich does not have Alchemy and Meditation GM, etc). Changed regeneration skill and spell to work MM7 alike.

- Are there plans to alter the damage, value and other stats of certain weapons to stratify them further? Since now we have access to weaponry from all 3 games this could be a nice thing to try.

No. This discussion took place at page 6 of this topic. There are two problems:
1. Adjusting weapons in straight way, will force player to play continents in only order.
2. Manually reviewing and calculating new stats for each weapon and monster require a lot (really a lot) of time. It is litterally question about rebalancing all three games.
Currently i'm trying to address this problem with bolstering monsters depending on player's progress (monsters get ability to use spells, summon other monsters, buffs to their damage and spellpower, bonuses to total amount of HP are exist, but highly limited). Check "...Data\Tables" folder, there are two files "Bolster - monsters.txt" and "Bolster - maps.txt", they contain all existing settings, plus bolstering can be adjusted/toggled in ingame control menu.

- Also, shouldn't the Wizard now have access to Master Light Magic for equivalency with the Necromancer? IMO it's only fair.

No. It may seem like these are classes of same tier, but in fact, necromancer is wizard, who has already stepped on path of dark, but did not transform himself into lich yet (count as tier 2.5). Gamewise, allowing Wizard to use light magic will make problems, because Wizard still can be promoted to Lich after, who is not supposed to use that. Looking ahead, i must say, classes who use both light and dark magic won't work for now, there is techincal issue: spellbook's interface do not support existence of both of these spellschools at same time (buttons have same coordinates, player won't be able to switch pages). Also, wizard can be promoted to necromancer at Jadame.

- Is there any differentiation between Priests of Light and Priests of the Sun? Do they both exist in the game? If they do, they should probably be unified. I checked the skill table and Clerics and Priests have the very same skills available, there is no cap on expert magic for plain Clerics. Something should be done to equalize the advancement path for Clerics on Jadame with those from other continents IMO.

Priests of Light and Priests of the Sun are same class. Clerics and Priests are fixed, thanks, reapply latest update. Also mm8 promoters will promote Cavaliers and Priests too (Frederic Talimer is priest now, same as characters in Jadame new game roster).

I also think some MM8 classes should be amended with skills they don't normally get to learn in MM8, as those are no longer there. I'm referring particularly to Stealing, Unarmed and Dodging.

Stealing was removed in MM8, for now i don't think, it worth to be implemented back (at least, untill reputation system is not implemented first). Dodging and Unarmed works. Though it have sense to have basic/expert dodging/unarmed, will it worth to spend skillpoints for classes, who have mastery/grandmastery in weapon/armor skills? Dodging and unamred skills does not give any undependent passive bonuses untill grandmastery.

Might & Magic XXI: The Magnificent Merge

I have no good ideas for the name and i would not call it anyhow, untill main game picture says "Might and Magic VIII: Day of the Destroyer", did not seek any to replace it for now.

[Xfing]

MM8 only had two items like this, the Mace of the Sun and the Noblebone Bow. MM7 had plenty more, though their displayed values were much lower (not that it matters, considering they weren't sellable).

M&M 8 actually had numerous fixed Artifact spawns that would respawn with the map, so you could acquire multiples of them. Mace of the Sun, Terminus, Ring of the Planes, Glomenthal, Foulfang, Elderaxe, Scepter of Kings, Judicious Measure, Snake and Noblebone Bow (although this could also appear once at any random Artifact location as well). Several quest items that were also Artifact quality would respawn at fixed locations, such as Eclipse, Ebonest, Axe of Balthazar, and Sword of Whistlebone.

I'm well aware, and you forgot Snake

However, these artifacts you mentioned aren't the same type of item as the one I was referring to. These are pretty much regular artifacts, just with fixed spawn locations. You can identify them, and they have a value of 20-30k. Pretty much just fixed spawn artifacts and relics. The last few items you mentioned are different still - they have a value of 0 and "quest item" in their description.

The MM7 items I mentioned earlier were different - like I said, their value was much lower (usually around 2500), they didn't need to be identified as they were readily identified, and they couldn't be sold (the vendor would just say "I'm just a simple shopkeeper. This Zokarr's Axe is beyond my meager knowledge". Going by these criteria, only such items in MM8 that I recall are the Noblebone Bow and the Mace of the Sun. And the Minotaur Axe from the maze in Nighon is such an item too.

- Is there a guide of sorts that explains how things work now? Like a FAQ to help the player understand what to do, where can hirelings be found, what happens when you dismiss them while not on Jadame etc.

Except tips in first post - no. In game, after certain amount of exp gained by first character, you'll get clues how to travel between continents and why shall you do it.

- Was the class balance altered in any way?

A bit and only in terms of available skills. Mostly to bring MM8 characters in line with MM7-6 ones (Lich does not have Alchemy and Meditation GM, etc). Changed regeneration skill and spell to work MM7 alike.

As for regeneration, I think it got nerfed in MM8 for a reason. In MM7 it healed in a single tick as much or more than Power Cure did, for only 5 SP per character. And it lasted hours. It was completely broken, having Regen up meant you likely wouldn't have to worry about healing for the remainder of the fight. In MM8 it was very unremarkable by comparison, but went closer in line with what the spell was meant to be and do.

On the other hand, I can think that the formula of 1 HP per tick per skill point (x2, x3, x5 depending on mastery) is only fair. Is it the formula used in MM7?

- Are there plans to alter the damage, value and other stats of certain weapons to stratify them further? Since now we have access to weaponry from all 3 games this could be a nice thing to try.

No. This discussion took place at page 6 of this topic. There are two problems:
1. Adjusting weapons in straight way, will force player to play continents in only order.

How so? I played starting on Jadame and I found all 3 flavors of tier 1 shields, for example (Trollish, Goblin and that one from Enroth - all of them value 250 and 6 armor if I'm not mistaken). If I recall, there are 5 quality tiers of items + a sixth one (artifacts, relics and t5 items with top tier enchants). Anyway, no matter the continent you start on, you have access to items from all three games, so this shouldn't mess with continent order in any way.

Also, you probably misunderstood what I meant in the first place - I'm not talking about the same thing as the discussion on page 6 addressed. I mean that we have for example three spears of tier 1:
- the MM6 "Spear"
- the MM7 "Crude Spear"
- the MM8 "Ogre Fighting Stick"

All of them have a value of 15, basic 1d9 damage and +0 to accuracy and damage. What I'm saying is you could stratify them within their single tier. For example, have the OFS be at +0 to everything, the Spear have +1 to hit only, and have the Crude Spear get +1 to damage but not to hit. That way the three crappiest tier 1 spears could still be somewhat different from each other. You could play with their values a bit too, for example leaving the OFS at 15, having the Spear at 18 and the Crude Spear at 20 or something. This same treatment would apply to all the weapons (and armors in the future), so that no two weapons and armors have exactly identical statistics and value. This would greatly deepen player immersion IMO.

BTW I think the Sublime Spear from MM7 should be above the Dragon Harpoon from MM8 - since it was made by a Heavenly Forge and all. Catch my drift now?

2. Manually reviewing and calculating new stats for each weapon and monster require a lot (really a lot) of time. It is litterally question about rebalancing all three games.

Yeah, like I said, don't worry about that. I was only talking about player weapons, and more for reasons of flavor and immersion. You can hardly talk of "balancing" when it comes to weapons in MM6-8 I think, since the leap from tier 1 to tier 6 (say, +12 chace to hit and +12 damage) is very little compared to bonuses from skills and spells that advanced characters have. Having good weapons is just gravy.

Of course for this very reason you could take this further and stratify the weapons more, so that the best of the best weapons have like ~+25-30 to hit and damage (I'd imagine it being Artifact-tier 2h axes, halberds and such). This could also allow you to have the differences between all 15 weapons in any one class be bigger, giving them even more individuality, without breaking the game. Even having +30 to acc and dmg ona 2h weapon would start making less and less of a difference the further you advanced in the game - most of the job is done by spell buffs and skills, like I said before.

- Also, shouldn't the Wizard now have access to Master Light Magic for equivalency with the Necromancer? IMO it's only fair.

No. It may seem like these are classes of same tier, but in fact, necromancer is wizard, who has already stepped on path of dark, but did not transform himself into lich yet (count as tier 2.5). Gamewise, allowing Wizard to use light magic will make problems, because Wizard still can be promoted to Lich after, who is not supposed to use that. Looking ahead, i must say, classes who use both light and dark magic won't work for now, there is techincal issue: spellbook's interface do not support existence of both of these spellschools at same time (buttons have same coordinates, player won't be able to switch pages). Also, wizard can be promoted to necromancer at Jadame.

I don't think promoting a wizard to a necromancer is a good idea, but let's say it's workable for now. In that case, I think the wizard should have the same skills as the necro does, such as disarm trap. Though maybe since the necro is a promotion of the wizard, it's OK that they gain this new skill. Anyway, make sure that Halfgild Wynac can also promote necromancers - not just wizards - to liches, I think that would be only fair.

As for the thing you said about the Light and Dark cards in the spellbook overlapping with each other - that is fortunately not true. I even double-checked it right now. In MM8 the spellbook has 12 cards. First 4 are for elemental magics, the next 3 are for self magics, 8th is Light, 9th is Dark, and the last three are Dark Elf, Vampire and Dragon abilities. There should be no problem at all having a character use both light and dark magic like they did in MM6.

Priests of Light and Priests of the Sun are same class. Clerics and Priests are fixed, thanks, reapply latest update. Also mm8 promoters will promote Cavaliers and Priests too (Frederic Talimer is priest now, same as characters in Jadame new game roster).

Ok, great!

I also think some MM8 classes should be amended with skills they don't normally get to learn in MM8, as those are no longer there. I'm referring particularly to Stealing, Unarmed and Dodging.

Stealing was removed in MM8, for now i don't think, it worth to be implemented back (at least, untill reputation system is not implemented first).

Yeah, ok, we can wait for that I guess. No fuss.

Dodging and Unarmed works. Though it have sense to have basic/expert dodging/unarmed, will it worth to spend skillpoints for classes, who have mastery/grandmastery in weapon/armor skills? Dodging and unamred skills does not give any undependent passive bonuses untill grandmastery.

It's not about it being worth it to spend those points there, it's about having the option to. Again, it's more of an immersion/worldbuilding thing. If Paladins from Erathia can learn Unarmed, why not say, Dark Elves from Alvar? Catch my drift? I don't imagine anyone investing into Unarmed with a Dark Elf, but it's hard to accept they can't have this skill at all, while almost all human classes from Erathia do. Same should go for Vampires, Trolls and Minos. The latter two shouldn't have dodging though, because they're too big and clumsy for that.

Oh, also I gotta ask you a question: does the Staff skill with MM7 or MM8 mechanics? I think the MM8 mechanic of simply adding skill points to damage is better, since the combination with Unarmed in MM7 was more of a detriment than a bonus, really.

[Daedros]

MM8 only had two items like this, the Mace of the Sun and the Noblebone Bow. MM7 had plenty more, though their displayed values were much lower (not that it matters, considering they weren't sellable).

M&M 8 actually had numerous fixed Artifact spawns that would respawn with the map, so you could acquire multiples of them. Mace of the Sun, Terminus, Ring of the Planes, Glomenthal, Foulfang, Elderaxe, Scepter of Kings, Judicious Measure, Snake and Noblebone Bow (although this could also appear once at any random Artifact location as well). Several quest items that were also Artifact quality would respawn at fixed locations, such as Eclipse, Ebonest, Axe of Balthazar, and Sword of Whistlebone.

I'm well aware, and you forgot Snake

Nope, i remembered it. It's even in your quote of me, just before Noblebone Bow

As for regeneration, I think it got nerfed in MM8 for a reason. In MM7 it healed in a single tick as much or more than Power Cure did, for only 5 SP per character. And it lasted hours. It was completely broken, having Regen up meant you likely wouldn't have to worry about healing for the remainder of the fight. In MM8 it was very unremarkable by comparison, but went closer in line with what the spell was meant to be and do.

On the other hand, I can think that the formula of 1 HP per tick per skill point (x2, x3, x5 depending on mastery) is only fair. Is it the formula used in MM7?

Regeneration (both the skill and spell) has been changed to be percentage of max HP. GM Regeneration regenerates 4% Max HP per tick.

[Daedros]

So, i just beat M&M 8, and when i went to talk to Verdant in the Regna Mage Shop, she gave me 4 rings. The rings are called "Cycle of Life" and have "Shared Life" and "+20 Endurance" as their properties. Why only 4 rings, when i have 5 party members? If this wasn't a reward for beating the game, then i'd call them overpowered. Shared Life is incredibly OP when you pair it with a Vampiric weapon. Blazen Stormlance wearing one of these rings while wielding Spiritslayer is hilarious, he can carry the rest of the party through pretty much anything.

Also, does Hammerhands work for Monks when the Monk is wielding a Staff with GM Staff skill?

[Rodril]

Oh, also I gotta ask you a question: does the Staff skill with MM7 or MM8 mechanics? I think the MM8 mechanic of simply adding skill points to damage is better, since the combination with Unarmed in MM7 was more of a detriment than a bonus, really.

Staff GM skill works like in MM8, except when character have both unarmed and staff, then he gets highest damage bonus if have staff in hands.

Also, you probably misunderstood what I meant in the first place - I'm not talking about the same thing as the discussion on page 6 addressed. I mean that we have for example three spears of tier 1:- the MM6 "Spear" - the MM7 "Crude Spear" - the MM8 "Ogre Fighting Stick"

Got it, very nice idea, so it won't be just diffrent pictures. I'll try to add it in next updates. If anyone have suggestions, how to diversify triples of items in their "subtiers", share it, please.
I don't rememer regeneration formula of MM7, current is: HP = HP + FullHP*SkillLevel*Mastery/1000, and it stacks with regeneration spell, in case of spell, skill level and mastery of caster are used.

Why only 4 rings, when i have 5 party members?

Ouch! Actually she had to give only one ring, who could expect that generosity? I've added quickfix, reapply latest patch, or just this file: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v6bsucr1m5ck ... s.lua?dl=0
Better to get rid of extra rings, because player is not supposed to get more than two of them.

Also, does Hammerhands work for Monks when the Monk is wielding a Staff with GM Staff skill?

I have not checked it.

[Daedros]

Why only 4 rings, when i have 5 party members?

Ouch! Actually she had to give only one ring, who could expect that generosity? I've added quickfix, reapply latest patch, or just this file: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v6bsucr1m5ck ... s.lua?dl=0
Better to get rid of extra rings, because player is not supposed to get more than two of them.

Yeah, after a bit more testing i realized that the Rings don't need to be worn on all characters for them to share HP, one Ring is enough. I originally thought the Rings were linking the HP of only the characters that were wearing one of the rings.

Just did a Lord Arena on Jadame at Lvl 131, and it was hilarious. Half of the enemies were stationary floating Reactors that shot laser beams at me, lol. I've had a Terminator pop up as the Bounty target in Erathia before, which was kind of cool.

[Xfing]

Ok, so for example I think it's noticeable that even among tier 1, some weapons look particularly crappy. Just compared the tridents from the 3 games.

MM7's Trident looks like a rustier, more disheveled version of MM8's Hayfork, which by itself looks unremarkable, but not horrible. MM6's Trident looks best here. Some MM7 and MM8 weapons look very much alike, like logical continuations of one another too. Same goes for the daggers - MM7's bottom tier dagger and long dagger look so crappy in fact, that I think they should in fact carry a penalty, rather than just being 0/0. Perhaps it would be nice if every bottom tier consisted of three weapons, one of which would be -2/-2. another 0/0, and the best one +1/+1. This could definitely work for the daggers, going from MM7 Dagger -> MM8 Crude Dagger -> MM6 Dagger, for example. Some hammers, spears, maces and swords look particularly dismal too. I think the -2/0/+1 system for every single tier 1 weapon category would in fact work pretty well. The worst-looking weapons having an actual penalty to effectiveness compared to baseline would also add to their character.

Values of the weapons would of course have to be amended too.

Tridents:
MM7 -> MM8 -> MM6
Maces:
MM6 -> MM7 -> MM8
Daggers:
MM7 -> MM8 -> MM6
Long Daggers:
MM7 -> MM8 -> MM6
Halberds:
MM8 -> MM7 -> MM6
Axes:
MM7 -> MM8 -> MM6
2H Axes:
MM8 -> MM7 -> MM6
Spears:
MM8 -> MM7 -> MM6
Longswords:
MM7 -> MM8 -> MM6

That's all I can think of right about now. In general, MM6's bottom tier items never looked low quality, while MM7's very often did. I'll prepare a detailed list of my suggestions for changing higher level weapon stats once I play more of the game and gather some of them in one place to compare them

In the meantime, I have some stray observations to take into consideration for some of the next updates:
- Elsbeth Lamentia when she can't learn a spell cycles through one of Gethric Mercutura's "I can't learn it" lines. Obvious mistake, easily fixed I suppose.
- I think some of the nerfs MM8 made to the classes which you didn't keep, would in fact be good to keep. For example: Knights should only have expert leather instead of master, and clerics should have expert learning and repair rather than master.
- Light and Dark Magic instructors in Jadame charge 1k-4k-8k for their instruction. In MM7 they charged the same fees as the weapons instructors, which was 2k-5k-8k. I think it would be nice to get back to this pricing, since Light and Dark Magic are among the most powerful skills in the game.

[Daedros]

The chest within the Halls of Mist that is supposed to contain the Soul Jars for Halfgild Wynac's quest, doesn't even open anymore. I've tried clicking on it from all sorts of angles, and even tried spamming spacebar on it, and it won't open at all. I can't interact with it.

Just noticed, that when i give the Oscillation Overthruster to Kastore in the Pit, i get the end cinematic, but i don't get any experience for it, and the quest to enter the Lincoln and get the Oscillation Overthruster is still in my quest log, even though Kastore just took it. When i contact Verdant, she says i have to visit Gavin Magnus and pass his test. Wierd.

Skill Braziers (Games, Contests, Tests, Challenges) don't seem to be remembering if you've won them before. For example, if i pass a Challenge of Intellect, it'll award me 10 skill points, and i can't win it again on that same character, until the maps reset. When the maps reset, if i come across another Challenge of Intellect, the character that has already won one before, can now win it again for another 10 skill points. They didn't behave like this in base M&M 8.
Every year that a map resets, i've been teleporting 34 characters (all the ones in the Adventurer's Inn) to all the Skill Braziers in Jadame and Antagarich, and have been able to rack up 230+ skill points for free on each character, even the ones that are Lvl 5. The absolute maximum amount of skill points you're supposed to be able to acquire throughout the game from Skill Braziers is 175, so i'm absolutely sure the Skill Braziers aren't working correctly.

[UnknownHuman]

Thanks Rodril, works perfect now.

I would like to request if possible to spawn indoors like outdoors if possible .
Insane amount of monster indoors as well.

Thanks Rodril, you rule !

[Daedros]

Dragons in Antagarich don't seem to be dropping the Dimension Door "scroll" as loot.

[Xfing]

I made a list of suggested weapon stats for all weapons at work today, but forgot to send the file to my mail or post it here. I'll do it tomorrow, later I'll think about suggestions for the weapon order.

EDIT: What's wrong with not finding Armageddon books in Shadowspire's dark magic shop? I understand it could be used early on to clear out maps and rack up tons of exp, but it's actually quite tough to say goodbye to it ;P

[Xfing]

Here's my suggestions for stat distribution for certain weapon classes. Like I said above, I'm for buffing weapons a little bit - stronger types to get buffed more and weaker ones less, that would let the weapons stand more apart from each other and won't really affect gameplay (more affecting player satisfaction from finding better gear). This list doesn't contain suggestions which weapon should be which, just a suggested stat spread. This doesn't take into account artifacts and relics, these should obviously have even higher damage than the values suggested here.

In the parenthesis next to the name of the item is the number of weapons available in all 3 games. I split the weapons into 6 tiers - the 5 normal ones, plus the 6th, originally reserved only for artifacts, relics and top tier enchantment tier 5 weapons. We could use this opportunity to make the single best non-unique weapon of the type also be tier 6, to be found only in the best possible treasure troves and give players ample satisfaction from finding them.

Daggers (15): 2d2
Tier 1: -1/-1; 0/0; 1/1;
Tier 2: 2/2; 2/3; 3/3;
Tier 3: 4/4; 4/5; 5/5;
Tier 4: 5/6; 6/6; 6/7;
Tier 5: 7/7; 7/8;
Tier 6: 8/8

Long Daggers (11): 2d3
Tier 1: -1/-1; 0/0; 1/1;
Tier 2: 2/2;
Tier 3: 3/3; 4/4; 5/5;
Tier 4: 6/6;
Tier 5: 7/7; 8/8;
Tier 6: 9/9

Longswords (15): 3d3
Tier 1: -2/-2; -1/-1; 0/0;
Tier 2: 2/2; 3/3; 4/4;
Tier 3: 6/6; 7/7; 8/8;
Tier 4: 10/10; 10/11; 11/11;
Tier 5: 13/13; 13/14;
Tier 6: 14/14
Broadswords (11): 3d4
Tier 1: -2/-2; 0/0; 1/0;
Tier 2: 3/3
Tier 3: 4/4; 5/5; 6/6
Tier 4: 8/8
Tier 5: 11/11; 13/13
Tier 6: 15/15

Cutlasses (11): 2d4
Tier 1: -2/-2; 0/0; 1/0
Tier 2: 2/2
Tier 3: 5/5; 6/6; 7/7
Tier 4: 9/9
Tier 5: 11/11; 12/12
Tier 6: 13/13

Two-Handed Swords (11): 4d5
Tier 1: -3/-3; -1/-1; 0/0
Tier 2: 3/3; 3/4; 4/4
Tier 3: 8/8
Tier 4: 11/11
Tier 5: 14/14; 15/15
Tier 6: 17/17

Maces (15): 2d4
Tier 1: -2/-2; -1/-1; 0/0
Tier 2: 2/2; 2/3; 3/3
Tier 3: 6/6; 6/7; 7/7
Tier 4: 9/9; 9/10; 10/10
Tier 5: 12/12; 12/13
Tier 6: 13/13

+ Overlord's Club from MM8, which also requires the Mace skill and has a damage of 3d3+6. I suggest keeping it tier 3 but buffing the damage to 3d3 + 8.

Hammers (11): 2d5
Tier 1: -2/-2; -1/-1; 0/0
Tier 2: 3/3; 3/4; 4/4
Tier 3: 7/7
Tier 4: 10/10;
Tier 5: 11/12; 12/12
Tier 6: 14/14

Axes (15): 4d2
Tier 1: -2/-2; -1/-1; 0/0
Tier 2: 2/2; 2/3; 3/3
Tier 3: 6/6; 6/7; 7/7
Tier 4: 10/10; 10/11; 11/11
Tier 5: 12/13; 13/13
Tier 6: 15/15

Two-Handed Axes (11): 3d7
Tier 1: -3/-3; -1/-1; 0/0
Tier 2: 4/4; 4/5; 5/5
Tier 3: 8/8
Tier 4: 12/12;
Tier 5: 14/15; 15/15
Tier 6: 17/17

Staves (11): 2d4
Tier 1: -2/-2; -1/-1; 0/0
Tier 2: 2/2; 2/3; 3/3
Tier 3: 5/5
Tier 4: 7/7;
Tier 5: 9/9; 10/10
Tier 6: 11/11

Spears (15): 1d9-2d9
Tier 1: -2/-2; 0/0; 1/1;
Tier 2: 2/2; 2/3; 3/3;
Tier 3: 6/6; 6/7; 7/7;
Tier 4: 10/10; 10/11; 11/11;
Tier 5: 13/14; 14/14;
Tier 6: 16/16

Tridents (11): 2d6-3d6
Tier 1: -3/-3; 0/0; 1/1;
Tier 2: 3/3;
Tier 3: 7/7; 7/8; 8/8
Tier 4: 11/11;
Tier 5: 14/15; 15/15;
Tier 6: 17/17

Halberds (11): 3d6-4d6
Tier 1: -3/-3; 0/0; 1/1;
Tier 2: 4/4; 5/5;
Tier 3: 9/9
Tier 4: 12/13; 13/13
Tier 5: 14/15; 15/15;
Tier 6: 18/18

Bows (15): 5d2
Tier 1: -1/-1; 0/0; 1/0;
Tier 2: 2/2; 3/2; 3/3;
Tier 3: 5/4; 5/5; 6/5;
Tier 4: 8/7; 8/8; 9/8;
Tier 5: 11/10; 11/11;
Tier 6: 13/13

Crossbows (11): 4d2
Tier 1: -1/-1; 0/0; 1/0;
Tier 2: 3/3;
Tier 3: 5/5
Tier 4: 7/7; 8/7; 8/8
Tier 5: 10/9; 10/10;
Tier 6: 12/12

Clubs (8): 1d3
Tier 1: -1/-1; 0/0; 1/1
Tier 2: 2/2; 2/3; 3/3
Tier 3: 5/6; 6/6

(Also, can you fix clubs? They have a set sound and recovery time in the game's files, but it's bugged to no sound and recovery of 30. No idea why Grayface has never gotten around to fixing this obvious bug as of yet).

So, what do you think of these suggestions? As I said before, I'll try to compile a list of which weapon should occupy each spot, unless you'd prefer to do that alone. Weapon values are probably much more intuitive to fix, so you can take care of that yourself I suppose.

[Phobos]

I like this diversifying of weapons! It would make each of them unique. Great suggestion, Xfing! However, I'd just like to say that the bonus to a weapon's attack is always the same as the bonus to damage with these three games, so that formula should probably be kept in mind if any changes are made. I can see that it's very doable this way, much like you've suggested with the long daggers. If there are lots of weapons of a certain type, one might just have to start at -2 or something A wonderful idea indeed!

[Daedros]

In some of those instances, early on in the game, fists would be better than the Tier 1 weapons. For example, if you just start a new game on Jadame, Elsbeth Lamentia would be better off using her fists than a Tier 1 Dagger with -1/-1. A Tier 1 Dagger with -1/-1 would do 1-3 damage, with a To Hit penalty.
That's a lot of work revamping weps, considering skills and spell buffs end up contributing far more to damage than the actual weapon does, especially late-game. Although, it is a pity that Two-Handed Weps (even the Artifacts) are such crap compared to Dual Wield or 1H+Shield.

[Xfing]

In some of those instances, early on in the game, fists would be better than the Tier 1 weapons. For example, if you just start a new game on Jadame, Elsbeth Lamentia would be better off using her fists than a Tier 1 Dagger with -1/-1. A Tier 1 Dagger with -1/-1 would do 1-3 damage, with a To Hit penalty.

Early on in the game your damage is dependent entirely on your Might stat. I've had Devlin Arcanus deal 1 damage with the Staff while diseased, whereby his might went down near zero. Not 1-2, but 1 But yeah, your fists deal either 0 or 1d1 base damage, and the rest is all the might stat, so even with a -1 dagger you'd still be better off than with your bare hands, disregarding that small chance to hit penalty. Crappy weapons are supposed to be hard to hit people with anyway

That's a lot of work revamping weps, considering skills and spell buffs end up contributing far more to damage than the actual weapon does, especially late-game.

Nah, it's not so much work, it just takes tweaking some numbers, probably can all be done in 30 minutes total And yeah, the fact that skills count more than the weapons themselves was my main motivation behind this idea. We could allow ourselves to have really weak weapons, but also really strong ones, either wouldn't really break the game. What matters even more is the diversity and individual character of all the weapons, as it makes the game simply more fun to be in, even if the actual numerical benefits are negligible.

Although, it is a pity that Two-Handed Weps (even the Artifacts) are such crap compared to Dual Wield or 1H+Shield.

I tried being conservative with my buffs to 2h weapons, but if need be, they could be made even larger. Initially I was thinking of the top halberd having +25 and the artifact version +30, but I went and played it safer here. In the base game the second weapon's damage is only directly added to your total damage pool by its exact damage count, you don't get another bonus to damage from skills because of your second weapon. Damage doesn't scale that much faster than 2h weapons, actually. Say, you have a 3d3+12 longsword and 10 in GM Armsmaster (let's exclude Might from this calculation), which means you'll deal 15-21 + 20 dmg = 35-41 dmg. Add another identical longsword in the other hand and all you'll really get is another 15-21 on top of that (if it's even that much, sometimes I feel it's even less), you won't get the additional 20 dmg from GM Armsmaster. So your total damage will be 50-62. Still better than a single 2h sword, but on very, very high skill levels the flat difference becomes less and less a percentage of the total. With a single 2h sword of 4d5+12, your damage would be 16-32 + 20 = 36-52. Only 10 points lower max than with the two longswords. And this 10 point difference would remain even when leveling up. That's why I think 2h swords aren't that much worse and should sometone choose to use them, they're not losing anything ultra important.

However, I'd just like to say that the bonus to a weapon's attack is always the same as the bonus to damage with these three games, so that formula should probably be kept in mind if any changes are made.

I'm well aware it's always been this way in all the 3 games, but I didn't go and assume that the game code actually prevents you from coding the hit bonus and damage separately. Because there's really nothing that says we couldn't do it if we wanted to In other words, I think that just because the attack bonus always happened to match the damage bonus in the games, doesn't mean they couldn't have different values if someone so chose.

[Daedros]

Although, it is a pity that Two-Handed Weps (even the Artifacts) are such crap compared to Dual Wield or 1H+Shield.

I tried being conservative with my buffs to 2h weapons, but if need be, they could be made even larger. Initially I was thinking of the top halberd having +25 and the artifact version +30, but I went and played it safer here. In the base game the second weapon's damage is only directly added to your total damage pool by its exact damage count, you don't get another bonus to damage from skills because of your second weapon. Damage doesn't scale that much faster than 2h weapons, actually. Say, you have a 3d3+12 longsword and 10 in GM Armsmaster (let's exclude Might from this calculation), which means you'll deal 15-21 + 20 dmg = 35-41 dmg. Add another identical longsword in the other hand and all you'll really get is another 15-21 on top of that (if it's even that much, sometimes I feel it's even less), you won't get the additional 20 dmg from GM Armsmaster. So your total damage will be 50-62. Still better than a single 2h sword, but on very, very high skill levels the flat difference becomes less and less a percentage of the total. With a single 2h sword of 4d5+12, your damage would be 16-32 + 20 = 36-52. Only 10 points lower max than with the two longswords. And this 10 point difference would remain even when leveling up. That's why I think 2h swords aren't that much worse and should sometone choose to use them, they're not losing anything ultra important.

Second weapons also get the benefit of the Enchant on them, which can be an extra 10-20 damage from the enchant alone in the case of "Of the Dragon" (not even counting the +25 Might benefit from it). Which is why my Minotaurs use a Elderaxe+Dueling Long Dagger of the Dragon, and don't have any reason to use a 2H Axe. Most of my Trolls use a Trollish Maul of the Dragon+Glomenthal (or Archangel Broadsword of the Dragon). Most of my Knights use a Dragon Harpoon of the Dragon (or Darkness)+Dragon Hunter's Shield of the Phoenix, or sometimes Dragon Harpoon of the Dragon+Terminus (+8 Armsmaster Sword). There's virtually no reason for any of my characters to use a 2H Wep, other than Necromancers/Liches with a Bone Staff (particularly the Staff of Elements).
It'd be cool if 2H Weapons could get a bigger damage bonus from Might.

[Xfing]

Actually I've made a thread about why troll mace + sword in the left has something wrong with it, with enough skill in mace, you'll actually be doing more damage with a mace alone, than with an accompanying sword. That's something I was hoping Grayface would look into one day.