Where to Next for the M&M Franchise?

[iLiVeInAbOx05]

It does seem though that the video game industry suffers this the most as fans of games have always been rigid about change, like Starcraft II which is almost seems like an updated version of the first

As a long time fan and player of Starcraft, the second game was radically different from the first. Maybe to a casual player it might seem like an updated version, but then casual players were the main target of Starcraft 2, which is why I don't play it like I did the first installment.

Like Namerutan said, choose your audience, and Blizzard did. They went with the larger playerbase, which consists of casual players.

H7 doesn't seem to have chosen any particular audience, but the massive amount of bugs and stopping of support so early didn't help either.

I stay far away from any game that has the word "bugs" in more than a few reviews, but that's just how I am

[GreatEmerald]

I used to be on this like with Star Trek, that "any Trek is better than no Trek". But while I tolerated Enterprise for 4 seasons, barely, I could not do so for Heroes since Ubi took over. That me, a hardcore HOMM fan, never finished the walkthroughs of Heroes V, and barely played VI and VII speaks about how much I hated what Ubi did with the series.
So, I am frankly hopeful that they either sell the rights to someone (like Katauri at 1C) who can do proper games with it, or they don't do anything with it. Because we don't need another half-arsed game using assets from the previous one.

Enterprise was OK. The new movies are what's terrible, direct counterpart to this whole Ashan business.
Discovery sounds promising. I hope they succeed, as I hope the MM franchise.

[Galaad]

graphics is more important for me.

Strategy games are not for you, but then Ubi didn't target strategy games players so you're not to blame.

However I cannot play H1-H4 because they are too ugly for me nowadays.

Some thoughts are better kept for yourself, I will just assume you mean the graphics are outdated.

[Galaad]

H7 doesn't seem to have chosen any particular audience

Oh yes they chose an audience alright, the people who will blindly pre-order, hopefully it didn't work that well.

[iLiVeInAbOx05]

Oh yes they chose an audience alright, the people who will blindly pre-order, hopefully it didn't work that well.

True enough

[Namerutan]

Oh yes they chose an audience alright, the people who will blindly pre-order, hopefully it didn't work that well.

I preordered Heroes5 in collector's edition. Not pleased, I bought the expansions, but not the special editions (and not preordered). I played H6 on a friend's PC, and decided to not purchase. Not tested H7, not pleased with what I have seen/read.
I think you got the point: "the people who will blindly pre-order", is less prone to do that again if you cannot please them.

[Pol]

@Namerutan
It may sound strange but I prefer the H7 way: both things (graphics & AI) on fine level (yes, H7 AI has some big flaws but generally it's not terrible).
If I ignore the fact I do not like the graphic style of the game you used as an example of good graphics (H6 & H7 look like better imho), graphics is more important for me.
I could play the game with bad AI, complaining about it a lot but still playing. However I cannot play H1-H4 because they are too ugly for me nowadays.

I belive in people coming to the matter from the point of graphic. But. I still think that if you would be long time player, like, not literally, playing the game for years. Mechanics and AI behaviours would strike to irk you. And you would be on the same boat like we.

The older pieces have that that clean to an absolute. So they are ideal for modding and new ideals in general.

Also speed is an important aspect. 2D fast speed, quick overview about the situation, fun for brain. 3D, pretty but impraticall to deal with it here. Cozy to look at and enjoy the feast for eyes.

In other words, 2D good for playing, 3D good for pausing. But of course good 2D art can be pleasing too, for example puzzles

As for older games like H3 with HDmod it's a completely contemporary straegy game without unnecessary ballast. From my own perspective it's still slow though. Also the AI and events again - they still lack.

H4 is the most advanced here, missing just good AI. Of course, already counting Equilibris in.

[Antalyan]

graphics is more important for me.

Strategy games are not for you, but then Ubi didn't target strategy games players so you're not to blame.

However I cannot play H1-H4 because they are too ugly for me nowadays.

Some thoughts are better kept for yourself, I will just assume you mean the graphics are outdated.

According to Wikipedia, "Strategy video games are a video game genre that focuses on skillful thinking and planning to achieve victory. It emphasizes strategic, tactical, and sometimes logistical challenges".

There are many types of strategy games, significantly different to each other. So any generalisation of strategy fans in this regard lacks its purpose if you don't want to explain to someone who likes to rush & kill & destroy as many things as possible while playing, that strategy games do not look like the best option for him.

I have no idea how you can decide whether strategy games are for someone just based on one's visual preferences.
Naturally, when choosing the game to play, I look at the genre & basic mechanics at first, as well as at its graphics. If everything seems to be interesting, then I look for more information and I might possibly try to play it. I'm able to ignore some smaller gameplay decisions I don't like, othwerwise, I would never find any game to play as there is always something you/I dislike in the game. I've never understood how can these older games (H1-H4) be so popular if I realise many smaller improvements from further games are not there.

Also something being "ugly" or "nice" is a subjective perception, not some general truth I'm trying to convince anyone about.

[Galaad]

Well I can give you thumbs up for replying so politely after my one liners lol

Look, Heroes has been raped for many of us, you're part of the VERY FEW people actually enjoying h7, let alone thinking it's the best in the franchise or whatever other BS. Subjective preferences are of course what they are, and this is why we can never agree, Ubisoft turned this franchise into something else, do you understand what that means?!

[cjlee]

Guys

I hate to see the conversation going downhill. I think whether we are dumb orcs or cunning dark elves, nerdy wizards, self righteous knights, poetic rangers, jovial dwarves or grim necromancers - we're all on the same side here, as part of a grand alliance against the 'demons'.

Kha Beleth is another name for Yves Guillemort, and Inferno is basically Ubisoft.

I, too, am one of those who really want better graphics for Heroes. You guys who play strategy games all day, you don't know what we are missing in the graphics side. Lots of games in the market nowadays are practically photorealistic.

True, I don't want to give up a good AI for the crap AI that is Heroes 7. I deinstalled H7 recently and haven't felt any urge to go back. True, I don't need to have 70FPS or whatever counts as top end animation.

But H2, 3, 4, 5 all look really dated. I really wish someone with the right abilities would recognize this. There are a lot of awesome artists out there and I wish we could bring together a round table of such heroes.

OK, H4, H5 may be out of the question since you need to do 3D modelling. This probably means less artistry, and more coding, which will turn off the artists and take up too much time besides.

But H3 is still firmly 2D. And 600x800 is a quarter of my monitor. Those guys who are going to spend years remaking the H3 AI, why not modernize and update and improve the look of the game as well? The beautiful game I knew in 1998, is now crude and cartoony 18 years later. I wish someone could summon up a round table of artists, assign each guy 10-20 drawings, and remake H3 for 1920x1200. There's enough resolution on current monitors to capture every detail. I can't imagine how awesome a bunch of artists could make H3 look. Like the Lord of the Rings trilogy? And by making the game look awesome, we can get/ retain far more gamers. That in turn will keep lots of mapmakers in business and lots of multiplayers playing.

BTW I am aware of the Heroes 3HD mod. I installed and played with it for a while. All that mod really does is to make the Heroes3 game fit a bigger screen. It doesn't add details to the dragons, it doesn't give us a detailed hero face in combat, etc.

[Galaad]

I wish someone could summon up a round table of artists, assign each guy 10-20 drawings, and remake H3 for 1920x1200. There's enough resolution on current monitors to capture every detail. I can't imagine how awesome a bunch of artists could make H3 look.

I think that's what most HOMM fans want tbh. Add TotE skill system and is perfect. You could even add heroes on BF as an option.

[cjlee]

And now that I am playing the Heroes 5.5 mod by Quantomas, Magnomagus and their team, I really do not want to go back to H2 and H3 unless their AI is also given a big time update. I think it is time for H3 and H5 fans and their modders to communicate and get the best of each version. We really do not need to be playing on a game designed for DOS/Windows.

[Galaad]

I really do not want to go back to H2 and H3 unless their AI is also given a big time update.

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=38959

[Antalyan]

Well I can give you thumbs up for replying so politely after my one liners lol

Look, Heroes has been raped for many of us, you're part of the VERY FEW people actually enjoying h7, let alone thinking it's the best in the franchise or whatever other BS. Subjective preferences are of course what they are, and this is why we can never agree, Ubisoft turned this franchise into something else, do you understand what that means?!

Ubisoft might have turned Heroes of Might and Magic series to something else than you and many old-school fans had expected. But I see no reason why I should stop spreading my opinion I really like their decision. I understand it might be quite frustrating to constantly read my opinions about how I find H7 to be great; however, you can believe it is exactly the same on my side, often reading about how bad H7 according to some opinions is. Especially when the game is/was developed by such a devil company, as cjlee mentioned, which is making everything to ruin the game and series even more (I guess that's one of the rare things we can agree on )

Speaking about the skill system, I like the new H7 random one the most, although H5 Toe/H5.5 ones were good too.

[Galaad]

You appreciate the series have been raped, I don't know what to tell you. I am only happy not many people think like you and that insisting on going that direction resulted in the end of the franchise, so it can be harmed no further.

[Pol]

Galaad Antalyan didn't said that. Although I see that further discussion in this direction is likely pointless. These are two incomparable views.

However I would be reserved to stating, that ..

so it can be harmed no further

to something else than you and many old-school fans had expected

Now that may be true, but when it begun it easily could turn to be false. We may got the game or lost it even more horribly.

Err, Fall of Steadwick?

[Galaad]

The thing is when newcomers clash this hard with old-school folks, it can only mean the direction has gone awfully wrong. You can lose some in the process while introducing new things and still succeed, like Civilization series. But Heroes, there's barely anyone left.

[cjlee]

I just hate it when people argue so much when they actually have plenty in common: the survival and improvement of our favourite franchise.

I have criticized H7 strongly and my criticisms, mockery and general contempt are everywhere on this forum. But I still strongly appreciate people like Antalyan, because without people like him, there is no fanbase and nobody will be interested to make H7 better or to learn from the lessons of H7 and give us a better H8.

Then we will be stuck in H2 and H3 until the end of time. 20 years from now when the average gamer is playing games in the 3D virtual reality photorealistic world of maybe 10000x20000 pixels, H2 fanatics will still be staring at DOS-era CGA graphics and insisting they are the best ever.

I made a big mistake saying earlier that I won't go back to H3 until their AI is updated. I didn't just mean a better, tougher AI. I know about Wake of Gods. I meant an AI that can fight complex and varying battles in 3D.

For example H7 introduced ideas like: 1)battlefields of different sizes 2)flanking 3)using battlefield obstacles for cover 4)separating units by attack type such as Prime Magic attack type, Fire Magic attack type, Might attack. After playing for many years, I'm tired of the set piece 2D battles from H3.

[Galaad]

Cjlee, you have no idea how badly I want a NEW HEROES game, but let's face it, the franchise died long ago. Ubisoft put it on life support in order to cash in but were never interested in what made this series so unique and great.

You want to polish a turd made by clueless and arrogant usurpers? Go ahead it won't bring what could have been. At best, you will defend something lacking the elegant style of NWC, the actual gameplay we love, and on top of it the **** can't even run decent.

[cjlee]

Even though I have found much fault with H6 and H7 (and not refrained from talking about their faults)…

I don’t think they are totally turds. They have their (limited) good points, which is why there are small numbers of people like Antalyan who genuinely like H6 and H7 and are not afraid to voice out.

I've mentioned a few good points about H7 above; now some good points about H6:
1) town conversion allows you to reinforce near the frontlines and prevents you from being stuck with another faction's troops (their problem was they carried things too far eg making conversions too cheap and easy)
2) Sanctuary Faction and their music was a real breath of fresh air
3) The invention of blood or tears was pretty interesting. Previous heroes versions did not differentiate factions by defensive or offensive tendencies. Possibly thanks to H6, now H5.5 modders also have paid attention to this inclination.
4) Creation of certain cool new spells like Time Stasis, Terror, Petrification, Summon Rock Wall/ Summon Ice Wall. I really would like to see these spells added to Heroes 3, 4, 5 mods.

As clueless and arrogant as Ubisoft is, ultimately they are in the gaming business and have made many games. They have their profits. And they are clearly greedy.

I’m pretty sure they will do whatever they can to make money off this franchise. Let's just hope that they will make another serious effort to make money off this franchise by creating a product that appeals to many gamers.