Best Town in Heroes of Might and Magic 5 (HOMM5)

[zaio-baio]

I assume the above is referring to the "upgrade" ability of the Haven town, or heroes?

What's "arma"??

Yes, the training ability.

"arma" is shortened from armageddon, lvl 5 destructive spell.

[markkur]

...unless you can put the skeleton transformer to a good use.

Reading your posts sound so much like what our friend Primus always tells me on this subject. I mean that in a very good way; meaning; you "Battle-Masters" have cussed and discussed this topic quite a bit and come to agreement through a lot of experience.

I had to quote and post about your comment above, because as most of us here know, depending on the rules of a given Map, that lone comment can be devastating. That's what I both, like and dislike, about this game; it can really deliver some serious "conditional-impacts" that are due to some map-rewarded-variation, whether one skill, faction type, resources, Hero, etc.

Supporting your comment; I recently made a map, absolutely loaded with random creatures. Ofc, what those creatures can be is completely dependent upon chance but with the Necromancer transformer, whatever the roll of the dice, is mostly a non-factor because of this great town-advantage, in having all troops (with the exception of the mechanical units) easily converting to Necropolis units. Btw, I really enjoy fighting as a Necro and having a good stack of Death-Knights join me. Sort of like, this is one Neutral that's not so neutral, in a homage flash-back to H3

This also reminds me of Markal or Rolf's special. If a map is made (as I often will) that makes a player fight for everything by making creature settings never-join anywhere on the map (with creature of the week,the exception), then their unique special and further, even the skill of Diplomacy etc. for any Hero, becomes worthless and a total waste .

I know that you know this, I just posted this for those new to H5. And ofc, this applies to all versions of the game.

[parcaleste]

... the skill of Diplomacy etc. for any Hero, becomes worthless and a total waste...

I thought Diplomacy is a waste in HV anyway.

[zaio-baio]

I thought Diplomacy is a waste in HV anyway.

On ubi/toh maps yes, on rmg maps its another story. Diplomacy + crown of leadeship is very very abusive. For instance leaving a few hordes of paladins for week 7-8, when you already have that big paladin stack + all your army with you. You also need +luck/morale/initiative artefacts, diplomacy and the crown. I recently had a few games where i ended up with about + 15 archangels, + 50-60 paladins,50-60 griffins and about 100-150 crossbows via diplomacy week 7-8 on 1 castle maps. After that i mentored out the diplomacy perk and went for empathy.

Of course not all monster stacks will join you, but you will get about 3-4 big stacks even without the crown.

With haven you use the 2ndary effect of training - those trained paladins boost the power value of your army.
With academy you craft + ini/luck/morale mini arts and attack the neutrals, then you can dismantle those arts and make + ini/att/def/hp for the final battle.
With orcs you first mentor all your heroes for + goblins and then attack, also if the map allows it you can mentor all your orc heroes to get the goblin cart ability for free + 6-7 goblins a day. Its not that hard to get + 1,1-1,2k goblins by week7.
Also even if its not listed in the manual wyngaal's swift striker ability does impact the chance to join . And ofc you first mentor all your elf heroes for free dancers.

Other towns have a bit harder time to get joiners.

[TheMeInTeam]

Lots of interesting stuff here, my take so far:

Necro: Misunderstood in HOMM V, especially after dark energy. Necro creeps very fast (mark of necro + raise dead), and can build up silly numbers with high necro skill + skeleton transformer (if applicable). Their magic school bias (Dark, Summoning) gives them an edge against dark-weak races like Inferno and Stronghold, while Summoning keeps their #'s high and can cause some annoyances like arcane armor or initiative screw if the necro avoids dark (might want to in some matchups). Against better late game races, they'd consider rushing. Haven would flatten them late with gobs of trained pally for example, but I'm not so sure Haven can afford that early, while the Necro can get an impressive #wraiths by the end of 1st month for example.

I feel like Wizards are being underestimated also. Late game artificer gets ridiculous. I know it sucks in campaign since you barely get to use it (mostly slopping about in other towns), but the high-end mini artifacts are really strong. Wizards themselves are versatile, and you can see anything from a somewhat might-oriented war machine Havez to dark or destructive wizards, to go with the more common summoners. These guys carry a fair amount of immunities also, though not as much as undead.

Sylvan are probably the strongest race IMO; they have so much speed/initiative, easy path to light, high damage, good units. I feel like they're excellent late game but not particularly weak early either.

Really it seems like the general trend is that the dark and/or evil factions (inferno, necro, dafk elf even though they're not technically evil) are better for rushing while the "good" ones tend to be better late game. Orcs I need to play more to make an honest eval.

[markkur]

Orcs I need to play more to make an honest eval.

Have you played them yet?

[cjlee]

I find the orc faction pretty much the opposite of Haven/Sylvan in terms of balance.

My personal opinion being that Haven/Sylvan are the most balanced factions across different types of maps, scenarios, with different conditions eg different resource availability.

And orcs are at the opposite end. Their strengths are enormous, but so are their weaknesses.

Might on might, Orcs are literally unstoppable. Against another might hero with weak magic skills, orcs will keep charging in, taking little damage thanks to their rage and hitting out with massive damage that keeps increasing thanks to warcries, more rage events, etc.

Their Untamed Cyclopses are particularly lethal on an open battlefield, with the most formidable area attacks of any creature.

But that's only if the enemy is so dumb as to fight orcs without magic. Chances are, the vast majority of the time orcs will go for Shatter Dark because they're too vulnerable to it. They won't risk spending a skill slot to go for Shatter Summoning or Shatter Destructive against most races eg against a Runemage, might as well just take the hit from his destructive spells which are often not that bad due to lower spellpower.

So if you go for two magic schools against an Orc player, chances are one magic school will work. And then the Orcs' vulnerability to magic will make them very weak against your forces.

Basically if you don't counter them properly, you simply cannot stand against them. Your knight defense or your wizard knowledge (for artifices) simply can't negate the overwhelming attack power. But once you have counters (eg Magic) orcs have no way to defend against these counters (Eg immunities).

The way to play orc is to keep moving. Keep attacking. Don't let your enemies fortify. Don't let them get high level magic. Once you are in some kind of scenario where the orcs can't hit you fast and hard (eg lots of castle defense and map big enough to really level your hero), orcs will be weak. Best example is Kujin's battle in the final campaign map - orcs are really weak at fighting a siege battle with no ballista against a dark magic caster.

Orcs I need to play more to make an honest eval.

Have you played them yet?

[PlanesWalker]

2 Questions

Is the Stronghold good late game?


Why so much hate for the Inferno town? I found their gating ability to be very effective in fights.

[cjlee]

2 Questions

Is the Stronghold good late game?


Why so much hate for the Inferno town? I found their gating ability to be very effective in fights.

For stronghold:

I consider them imbalanced, but this isn't a complaint. It means that they are overly strong in some circumstances and very weak in others. So an orc player has to choose the right situations to start a fight.

If you're in late game when the enemy has high level magic, good range attackers and is holed up in his castle, orcs will have a headache.

But if you are able to catch the enemy on an open battlefield in late game, orcs are strong. Then it will come down to the overall work you have done vs what your enemy has done to prepare for this fight. (EG if the dwarves have all runes and resources to keep spamming runes, they are stronger; if the humans have a vast pally stack and a hero that can masshaste everyone while you don't have divine guidance or ways to whip up your cyclopses, you're in a world of hurt.)

As for Inferno:

most good players have no difficulty handling inferno in late game, gating or not. This faction has too many weaknesses.

I like to think of the demons as nasty bullies. They love picking on you when you're outside your castle and they can decimate your army in the first few moves (since these are almost always Nightmares + Cerberus moving first, with lots of fire damage and tactics to ensure that they can reach all your troops, and the hero casting nasty dark magic spells to frenzy your troops just before their turn. If they can cripple you fast, it will be hard for you to recover, especially since they will blast you with mass slow next and out-initiative you all the way.

But if you can survive, the retaliation that nearly all races can do will smash the demons since they have the lowest hit points of all races.

[markkur]

I agree with cjlee's thoughts on the two factions.

The Orcs are a blast to play and what happens is usually rather up in the air, which is good. Sometimes you crush and others you get crushed. I just like the fact that other than that silly "magical" hordes's-anger bit, when you play stronghold you're playing pure Might. I wish they had done a better job with the anti-magic though. Maybe something like one-slot for two magic-classes and that's it. Once a slot was filled, then two schools and the Orcs are only "completely vulnerable" to the other two.

<imo> Inferno's def is just too low. I won't even creep with them till I have the dogs and demons upgraded, unless I have to. Maybe it's just me but I almost always have losses with this faction. Early to mid game, to have a quality army like a Haven or Sylvan, really everything needs to be already upgraded,i.e. the one shooter hardly does any real damage till you have chain-shot.

Btw, I use the "J" Mod from Quantomas because it allows 8 skills. For me, only 6 was always a bad idea. Because of this Its not really apples to apples for me to comment about balance, Playing stronghold I can have an anti-magic (or two) and not rob me of something good for the faction.

Anyway, because these two are what I would call Strike-factions, I think with Blood-Rage and Gating, it made them a balance nightmare, although the end result is not real bad, it could be better. I'm more of a defensive player and with both of these that's a no-go. You must attack attack and then attack; sometimes I'm in that mood, sometimes not.

[mr.hackcrag]

Inferno is not good until the units get upgraded and then they pretty amazing, especially with gating.

Seducer's skill is completely broken and I often win matches I have no business winning due to her alone. Today, my hero had Puppeteer and together with Seducer, opponents top tier units were mine. Those mind control abilities are too strong for this game.

@Markur, Seducer makes creeping really easy.

[Banedon]

One thing to note about playing against Stronghold is that you NEED Dark Magic or you will lose to them late game. Equivalently as the Stronghold player you absolutely should get Shatter Dark.

As for Inferno, the big problem is that they start slowly. If they make it to late-game unscathed they are strong, yes. But their early-game is weak. Seducers may make creeping really easy, but how many days will pass before you actually get to Seducers? By that time you may already be in a deep hole.

I haven't played HoMM 5 for a very long time, but I remember listing the races something like this:

Haven
Sylvan
Dungeon
Academy
Stronghold
Inferno / Necropolis / Fortress

Fortress is the most contentious of my list. It's my experience that Fortress's low-damage creatures and relatively weak early-game more than make up for their faction ability late-game, so I put them equal last. However I never played HoMM 5 very seriously, and can't say this confidently.

[zaio-baio]

Btw, I use the "J" Mod from Quantomas because it allows 8 skills. For me, only 6 was always a bad idea. Because of this Its not really apples to apples for me to comment about balance, Playing stronghold I can have an anti-magic (or two) and not rob me of something good for the faction.

More skills is better, but the game balance is tightly connected to the 6 skill slots limit. For instance the elves need to skip an important might skill in order to get leadership-> swiftness aura. If they have 8 skill slots then their 1st turn charge will be unstoppable.
As with the orcs - you can still have 2 shatters for 1 skill slot
Att
Def
Leadeship
Shatter dark
Enlightenment - mentor out - Shatter light
So you get 1 shatter and mentor out enlightenment go get the other
The stats from enlightenment will be kept, orcs are the only faction that doesnt lose the + stats from enlightenment when its removed via memory mentor. Ofc ppl may ban you if you do it .

Here 2 recent replays vs a top polish player:
http://speedy.sh/DGqfQ/LightNecroOwnsORcs.sav and http://speedy.sh/4qvUf/LordMIchalOWnedINfVsNOShatterORc
Pretty nice stuff, some light magic in action .

[markkur]

More skills is better, but the game balance is tightly connected to the 6 skill slots limit.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned my using "J" because those 2 extra slots really have an impact. Did you play the A.I. before you retired?

Enlightenment - mentor out - Shatter light
So you get 1 shatter and mentor out enlightenment go get the other
The stats from enlightenment will be kept, orcs are the only faction that doesnt lose the + stats from enlightenment when its removed via memory mentor. Ofc ppl may ban you if you do it .

I guess every HoMM game needs Tournaments...to flush out all the "enlightened-workarounds-"<LOL>

Btw, speaking of Enlightenment; Do you think the game would have been better-off without this supposed skill? (more like magically visiting all bonus sites on the map)After playing for a while now, I find it's a must-have late-game, because if I don't have it, my stats are deflated compared to enemies that do. Idk, I don't think any "skill" should be that impacting. Your thoughts?

[zaio-baio]

Did you play the A.I. before you retired?

Yes, it was pretty good.

I guess every HoMM game needs Tournaments...to flush out all the "enlightened-workarounds-"<LOL>

I always prefered to get 1 shatter only ( mostly dark) and mentor out enlightenment in favour of luck. Anyways, its safer with 2 shatters.

Btw, speaking of Enlightenment; Do you think the game would have been better-off without this supposed skill? (more like magically visiting all bonus sites on the map)After playing for a while now, I find it's a must-have late-game, because if I don't have it, my stats are deflated compared to enemies that do. Idk, I don't think any "skill" should be that impacting. Your thoughts?

I like the skill, but it badly needed a cap. Expert luck provides +30% dmg on average - same as +6 attack. A lvl 30 knight will get +15 free stats - most likely 4 att 7 def 2 sp and 2 knowledge - If we assume that 1 att is as good as 1 def, then exp enlightenment is about 2-3x better then the exp luck skill. So enlightenment is balanced with heroes around lvl 20, overpowered if lvl 25+, and underpowered if lvl 15 or less. Anyways, those free stats pale in comparison to the mentoring perk.
Bottom line is that both enlightenment and mentoring arent much better(if any) then the other skills, as long as the heroes are around lvl 20.

[Weird skilling]

Well im still new to this gem and picked it up as a used game...btw i love it,
To make it short necropolis with a certain hero that starts with war mashines (im bad with names)
Get him defense and attack traits to swarm your enemys with highly effective high numbers
I tend to skill this way:
Necromancy, war mashines, def, atk, enlightenment (more stats more fun also i prefer large maps so tutor is great) aaaand dark magic ofc
Yes no logistic your not there to catch heroes, your secondarys def citys and your mains go BOO at the enemy its awyum to have a trail at week 3 with some luck
( just as sidenote try to get the DE boost before the 1st week ends and skeleton warriors,the archers are terrible the warriors are scarry good, i had a siege where i went in with 740ish and came out with 520 and about half the rest,even tough i went in with them first (catapult with 3 shots ftw)
Anyway even tough their units look crap you can make em awsum, and no...aside from your second "i will carry the troops main doesnt want" hero, you wont need another necro unless you really want one