Might and Magic X

[Xfing]

Whoa, good to have the actual creative designer of the game here. Nice to meet you, Marzhin!

Personally, I'll stay open towards MMX. It's not like the new universe is really bad - it's the immense, immense wasted potential of the previous universe that pains me the most. And how it all got discarded without second thought simply because some higher-ups wanted to "be on the safe side" as far as sales are concerned. Well that's true - people are stupid and averse to novelty, and science fantasy is something that would have been sure to turn some heads. Remember what happened when the Forge was being prepared?

Sigh. If only van Caneghem had some more hindsight. He never expected HoMM to become such a successful series, and therefore never bothered to include the rightful sci-fi elements into it before it was too late. But before he knew it, the HoMM fanbase outnumbered the MM fanbase, and most of them didn't even play MM, so had no idea the world was a science fantasy world. Bad foresight came back to van Caneghem to bite him in the ass.

It's not like Heroes 3 isn't amazing the way it is- pure fantasy. But I personally take great delight in knowing that underneath it all there still lurks the ancient technology, space stations and futuristic weaponry. The storylines also were great and relatable - even though each game's plot was but a little fragment, the sheer hugeness of the universe gave the underlying feeling of a looming entirety. This can hardly be put to words, but the NWC universe was probably the most fascinating, imagination-invigorating gaming environment that I have had the pleasure of exploring. I will never get over the fact that it was flushed down the porcelain throne. If there was ever anything else to come out in that universe, I imagine I'd get stoked like a 12-year-old on a Justin Bieber gig.

Ashan, while a capable and immersive fantasy world in its own right, simply can't stand up to the sheer grandeur of the NWC universe. It's just one planet, while there were 4 explored in the NWC universe, and tens of thousands said to exist. The potential was immeasurable. It also seems to be a peerless setting for fanfics and potential books (and gives the liberty to have them in a pure fantasy or a sci-fantasy setting), sadly the interest isn't big enough.

Sadly I know that me and others who think alike are in the vast minority as far as the gaming market is concerned. But in my opinion it's only when you take risks that you can accomplish something grand, amazing, groundbreaking and unforgettable. Know Deus Ex? It was one man's vision, and that man was given the liberty to complete this vision the way he saw fit. And we got one of the very most amazing games to ever grace the PC.

Therefore, while I will await MMX open-mindedly, but I still would SOOOOO want to find out what was supposed to happen in the potential MM and HoMM games as Caneghem had envisioned them. I don't care about the games themselves, I could live with having it as a book or something. I'm a lore kind of guy!

[Marzhin]

Sigh. If only van Caneghem had some more hindsight. He never expected HoMM to become such a successful series, and therefore never bothered to include the rightful sci-fi elements into it before it was too late. But before he knew it, the HoMM fanbase outnumbered the MM fanbase, and most of them didn't even play MM, so had no idea the world was a science fantasy world. Bad foresight came back to van Caneghem to bite him in the ass.

Actually there's a very interesting interview of JVC in the book "Swords & Circuitry" (a book on computer RPGs written in the early 2000s by Neal Hallford, who was the co-writer and co-designer of Might & Magic III but is probably better known for Betrayal at Krondor).

In this long interview JVC states that he only put "Might & Magic" in the name of the Heroes series because the brand was already established and it would therefore sell more, but his ultimate goal was to dissociate the two series at some point ("Heroes of Might & Magic" would have become simply "Heroes").

One interesting tidbit is that Hallford states that the Ancients were "supposedly benevolent", hinting that maybe they actually were not. That would have been a neat twist.

If you have the opportunity to read it, Swords & Circuitry is a great book.

[MadeOMeat]

Dont really want to turn it into piracy topic, but far from everyone who "borrows" game from his 8k friends (peers in PB tracker) would buy it given that game wouldn't be available. Companies should make game more accessible, not just jack price up to 60 euro and wait for people to spend cash on any half baked game. Country where I live it's some 20% of what monthly salary is. There was games I spat about that they wernt' worth those 40 minutes it take them to dl, not to mention rage guy I would turn into considering I would spend 40 euro on(Somehow game - Pariah is one of those I was most mad about). In my eyes piracy corrects market even in some positive way, since once people see really good game they feel need to simply give money for it, so more such games arise.

Oh yes, I do realise that piracy is a very very complicated subject and that every copied game does not mean "one lost sale" as DRM proponents appear to assume. A topic for another forum, I think.

I cannot give the exact number, but Heroes V sold around one million copies*. sunglasses And it is estimated that at its peak,

*not counting digital retailers like Steam or GOG.

Heroes 5 on GOG?? 8-| [checks] Nah though.

All Might & Magic games must take place on Ashan and respect its bible, that's a rule of the IP as a whole. But it was pretty fun to play around that and see how we could bring back some of the old Might & Magicness into Ashan.
And Erwan Le Breton was actually very open about it (as long as we were not putting blasters and spaceships :p)
Personally, I think Ashan becomes a much funnier and likeable setting once you can walk around villages and talk to the actual people.

Well I've thrown my tantrums about Ashan now. They're here for all to see. It's all out of me now and I can begin to accept and move on. I do wish all the best for MMX. Whether or not it's a "proper" Might and Magic game I do hope for it to be a success. Good RPGs are getting hard to find these days, especially in the mainstream. A success for Ubisoft/Limbic would be a step in the right direction.

[Xfing]

Yeah, this is what everything these days boils down to when it comes to game publishers: make games that will sell rather than make games that will make an impact. Who will play the newest Call of Duty in 10 years? Or FIFA 2013? I wonder about that. No one really cares about games being quality products these days, actually more effort is put into making the games LOOK like they are. And deceptively so.

I can't help but wonder whether Diablo 3 was intentionally made that bad, or was it just a genuinely incompetent dev team. But that's a topic for another conversation, I guess.

Actually there's a very interesting interview of JVC in the book "Swords & Circuitry" (a book on computer RPGs written in the early 2000s by Neal Hallford, who was the co-writer and co-designer of Might & Magic III but is probably better known for Betrayal at Krondor).

In this long interview JVC states that he only put "Might & Magic" in the name of the Heroes series because the brand was already established and it would therefore sell more, but his ultimate goal was to dissociate the two series at some point ("Heroes of Might & Magic" would have become simply "Heroes").

One interesting tidbit is that Hallford states that the Ancients were "supposedly benevolent", hinting that maybe they actually were not. That would have been a neat twist.

If you have the opportunity to read it, Swords & Circuitry is a great book.

Well, thanks for the heads up. I might check out that book when I get the chance. Doesn't beat contacting van Caneghem himself for sure, but guess that's better than nothing

Well, original intentions aside, Heroes WAS set in the same universe as MM since day one. While I could definitely live with the franchise being entirely separate with MM, fact of the matter is, they weren't. I imagine that before 3DO's bankruptcy, the plot direction was to continue the existing trend. A MM game -> a HoMM game -> another MM game etc. Like the original Armageddon's Blade, which was supposed to pick up where the Dark ending of MM7 took off. Still, too bad that the fans reacted so violently to this. MM7 also contained references to the Restoration Wars etc.

But I suppose that the MM story could stop taking into account the Heroes titles had Caneghem decided this was the way to go, yes.

[MadeOMeat]

If you have the opportunity to read it, Swords & Circuitry is a great book.

Sounds fascinating!

[Demilich]

One interesting tidbit is that Hallford states that the Ancients were "supposedly benevolent", hinting that maybe they actually were not. That would have been a neat twist.

Yes, in Warriors of M&M and more, in Shifters we see that Ancient Eonar was rather bad guy, and in the novel Sea of Mist the main hero (son of Ancient, supposedly) is called "son of evil god" in final. So yes, it would be really interesting plot twist

[GreatEmerald]

Must really agree on this one. Serious plot and consistency began only with homm2/mm6, so any praising of deep lore for prior mm games is bit strange to say least. Sure they were fun but as time goes story telling changes.

No. Plot consistency started with MM3. In fact, MM3-5 has the most "meat" of the storyline, where talk about the Ancients and their technology is the most abundant. From MM6, the sci-fi aspect was toned down considerably, unfortunately.

So the MM lore is well-established. I'm not claiming that something can't be created that would match it, but if it's in another universe, it's irrelevant. Only if the universes get merged would it become relevant again.

Them's the times we live in. It's pretty sad (I hate videogame piracy and the effect it has had on the industry), but surely it's two sides of the same coin. Lots of sales, lots of piracy.

There would have been more sales and a slight bit less piracy if the games didn't have DRM. Me and a lot of people over at GOG and Desura refuse to play DRM-ridden games.

Personally, I'll stay open towards MMX. It's not like the new universe is really bad - it's the immense, immense wasted potential of the previous universe that pains me the most. And how it all got discarded without second thought simply because some higher-ups wanted to "be on the safe side" as far as sales are concerned. Well that's true - people are stupid and averse to novelty, and science fantasy is something that would have been sure to turn some heads. Remember what happened when the Forge was being prepared?

Well, the Forge was a disaster due to the fact that NWC didn't really handle it too well. In MM games, all the sci-fi stuff was unlocked very gradually, and it fit the setting. You get ray guns and photon blades, but they are very rare and don't stand out too much (often times it's better to use non-Ancient weaponry in MM2, for instance). You also get to fight sci-fi enemies, but they are usually not revealed to be that the first time you see them (Iron Wizards, Guardians, defenders of VARN etc.) It's often times revealed that they are of sci-fi origin later on. Same with the "golden" armours in MM6-8, they seem to just be expensive armour, but reading their descriptions reveals much more.

And then the Forge had quite a different view. Granted, it was supposed to show a chaotic mix of technology and local equipment, but that's not the best way to handle the first time introducing such a thing. If the Forge had been openly of a sci-fi origin, but their units looked unique and yet conventional enough, there wouldn't have been an uproar like that. Naga tanks is just not the right way to go.

It's not like Heroes 3 isn't amazing the way it is- pure fantasy. But I personally take great delight in knowing that underneath it all there still lurks the ancient technology, space stations and futuristic weaponry. The storylines also were great and relatable - even though each game's plot was but a little fragment, the sheer hugeness of the universe gave the underlying feeling of a looming entirety. This can hardly be put to words, but the NWC universe was probably the most fascinating, imagination-invigorating gaming environment that I have had the pleasure of exploring. I will never get over the fact that it was flushed down the porcelain throne. If there was ever anything else to come out in that universe, I imagine I'd get stoked like a 12-year-old on a Justin Bieber gig.

I agree wholeheartedly. The even more interesting thing is that behind the fantasy reality and behind ancient technology is a fusion of both technology and magic. Hints and pieces show that the Ancients can use both to good effect.

Therefore, while I will await MMX open-mindedly, but I still would SOOOOO want to find out what was supposed to happen in the potential MM and HoMM games as Caneghem had envisioned them. I don't care about the games themselves, I could live with having it as a book or something. I'm a lore kind of guy!

Me too. As I said several times already, for me the most important parts of a game is the lore (especially the continuity) and the art direction.

I read the MM books as well. The first one is kind of meh, it has names that come from MM but little else. Oh, and also nice particle effects. The two other ones are cool, they have fewer (if any) names, but the whole sci-fi story is ingrained. The Ancient town that was visited was interesting in particular.

By the way, you should probably help out with the MM Wiki, whenever the porting is done

One interesting tidbit is that Hallford states that the Ancients were "supposedly benevolent", hinting that maybe they actually were not. That would have been a neat twist.

You mean pull a Prothean? Well, it depends. I'd rather see them as morally grey. For one, I wouldn't expect them to care much about the local population of their colonies, as much as re-establishing their hold on them. In fact, we even saw something of the likes in Escaton – the Ancients were OK with sacrificing a whole world, if it meant having to deal with fewer Kreegan. I would also see the individual Ancients having an agenda just like members of every other species we encounter in the games. So they probably aren't very harmonious, especially during the time of war. At the same time, I don't see them as being ruthless conquerors and enslavers of worlds. That would just be mean.

So I guess I envision them as being akin to Vulcans from Star Trek: Enterprise, as in kind of jerks, but justifiably so, and logical and orderly about everything they do.

[GrayFace]

In any case, while MMXL is set on Ashan, and you won't wield blasters or go into spaceships, I did my best to put as many ties and references to the old universe as was possible. Some are subtle, some are quite direct, but they're definitely in there

That's good I hope they are actual ties, direct or subtle, or in-jokes, but not things like old names that are just thrown in there like Crag Hack's Axe, at least most of them. Good luck and inspiration to you and the team

In my eyes piracy corrects market even in some positive way, since once people see really good game they feel need to simply give money for it, so more such games arise.

It's just a weaker motivation. When you can't get something without paying your motivation to pay is much higher. Piracy is one of natural forces of evolution here. Evolution hasn't gone far yet, so there are many problems. The most efficient model today is F2P, but it doesn't suite most of the games. For traditional games something subscription-based might work well (imagine if you could pay Steam a fixed amount of money monthly and play any game there is).

Well, original intentions aside, Heroes WAS set in the same universe as MM since day one.

I heard the opposite. Heroes 1 wasn't tied to MM. It had familiar names thrown in, but no story ties. It was tied to the universe in Heroes 2 and MM6.

[Avonu]

I heard the opposite. Heroes 1 wasn't tied to MM. It had familiar names thrown in, but no story ties. It was tied to the universe in Heroes 2 and MM6.

Morglin's letters from HoMM1 manual tend to disagree with you.

[XEL II]

I heard the opposite. Heroes 1 wasn't tied to MM. It had familiar names thrown in, but no story ties. It was tied to the universe in Heroes 2 and MM6.

Morglin's letters from HoMM1 manual tend to disagree with you.

GrayFace is right in that the detailed lore connection (with backstory about the Crossing, the Silence, etc.) was established in MM6.

You mean pull a Prothean? Well, it depends. I'd rather see them as morally grey. For one, I wouldn't expect them to care much about the local population of their colonies, as much as re-establishing their hold on them. In fact, we even saw something of the likes in Escaton – the Ancients were OK with sacrificing a whole world, if it meant having to deal with fewer Kreegan. I would also see the individual Ancients having an agenda just like members of every other species we encounter in the games. So they probably aren't very harmonious, especially during the time of war. At the same time, I don't see them as being ruthless conquerors and enslavers of worlds. That would just be mean.

So I guess I envision them as being akin to Vulcans from Star Trek: Enterprise, as in kind of jerks, but justifiably so, and logical and orderly about everything they do.

I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying here. Although I don't think the Ancients would have the same huge emphasis on "much logic, as few emtions as possible" as Vulcans do.

[MadeOMeat]

No. Plot consistency started with MM3. In fact, MM3-5 has the most "meat" of the storyline, where talk about the Ancients and their technology is the most abundant. From MM6, the sci-fi aspect was toned down considerably, unfortunately.

Why would you not see MM1 and 2 as part of the plot consistency? The events of the first two games are referenced in Sheltem's log in MM5. The first two games aren't enormously contradictory to the rest.

There would have been more sales and a slight bit less piracy if the games didn't have DRM. Me and a lot of people over at GOG and Desura refuse to play DRM-ridden games. unfortunately.

Another discussion for another thread!

[GreatEmerald]

Why would you not see MM1 and 2 as part of the plot consistency? The events of the first two games are referenced in Sheltem's log in MM5. The first two games aren't enormously contradictory to the rest.

Well, I'm not saying it was inconsistent, I'm saying that it wasn't elaborate. I used the word just because I quoted it. Also, Sheltem's log in Darkside of XEEN is in Darkside of XEEN, not the first generation games

[narupley]

Just so you know -- Heroes V is the best-selling Heroes game of all times. (--edit: which makes it the best-selling game of the Might & Magic franchise as a whole, I guess.)
It's also the most pirated Heroes game of all times, but that's another story

Well obviously, "best selling" is a far cry from "best", especially when you consider how ridiculously the gaming demographic has grown since the mid-80s, in both numbers and diversity.

In any case, while MMXL is set on Ashan, and you won't wield blasters or go into spaceships, I did my best to put as many ties and references to the old universe as was possible. Some are subtle, some are quite direct, but they're definitely in there

I agree that Ashan is very boring, but there's no reason that sci-fi elements can't be added later on. It's all up to whoever makes the big storyline decisions for the IP itself.

[antipaladin]

i'm sorry for my nubility,but while i claim to know some lore,i do not understand where is it says that margolin ironfist is not native to eneroth...

[Agalloch]

i'm sorry for my nubility,but while i claim to know some lore,i do not understand where is it says that margolin ironfist is not native to eneroth...

The letters that appear in the manual of HoMM1, which setup the story, clearly state that he isn't native to Enroth.

[MadeOMeat]

I agree that Ashan is very boring, but there's no reason that sci-fi elements can't be added later on. It's all up to whoever makes the big storyline decisions for the IP itself.

Indeed so, but if it happens under Ubisoft's watch I'll eat my shell. Mixing genres up makes people angry and alienated. I don't know why but there it is. We saw it every time a 3DO MM game came out - there'd always be some new player saying "OMG now theirs lazer's and shark's and robot's LAME SUXORZ now im confuized 3do STOLE my money ANGRY FACE". Ubisoft will play it safe.

[narupley]

I agree that Ashan is very boring, but there's no reason that sci-fi elements can't be added later on. It's all up to whoever makes the big storyline decisions for the IP itself.

Indeed so, but if it happens under Ubisoft's watch I'll eat my shell. Mixing genres up makes people angry and alienated. I don't know why but there it is. We saw it every time a 3DO MM game came out - there'd always be some new player saying "OMG now theirs lazer's and shark's and robot's LAME SUXORZ now im confuized 3do STOLE my money ANGRY FACE". Ubisoft will play it safe.

Only people who had never played a M&M might have complained about that. Underlying "man behind the curtain" science fiction elements have always been part of the franchise, until now.

[MadeOMeat]

I agree that Ashan is very boring, but there's no reason that sci-fi elements can't be added later on. It's all up to whoever makes the big storyline decisions for the IP itself.

Indeed so, but if it happens under Ubisoft's watch I'll eat my shell. Mixing genres up makes people angry and alienated. I don't know why but there it is. We saw it every time a 3DO MM game came out - there'd always be some new player saying "OMG now theirs lazer's and shark's and robot's LAME SUXORZ now im confuized 3do STOLE my money ANGRY FACE". Ubisoft will play it safe.

Only people who had never played a M&M might have complained about that. Underlying "man behind the curtain" science fiction elements have always been part of the franchise, until now.

Yup, and now Ubisoft has control it's gone. Ubisoft want broadest possible appeal, so the stuff that made the MM series surprising and unique is gone. Best we can hope for is a good fantasy game.

[Marzhin]

For those interested, here's the actual quotes from Swords & Circuitry I was referring to earlier:

Neal Hallford: Was the diversification of the Might & Magic "brand" an effort to capture some of the Diablo market, or is it more an attempt to bring the player in through a strategy title and then lead them into the main role-playing titles?

Jon Van Caneghem: The first thing to consider is that the shelf space of the world is so crowded, having the Might & Magic name on something - because it's recognized - gets us over the first hurdle to get the products to the consumers. You've got to get it to them first, and you have to give both the retail folks and the consumers the confidence that it's going to be a quality title, so having the name on it helps.

Right now with Heroes 4 we don't even call it Heroes of Might & Magic anymore. It's going to be just Heroes 4. It's grown up, left the nest, and it's flying on its own. So that strategy worked. Now it's quite possible to overdo the strategy and dilute the whole brand, but it would be silly to have this great brand and not take some advantage of it. If you come out with a game called Game X, nobody ever tries it. That's a disappointing fact of life in this industry.

Obviously the idea to remove any mention of Might & Magic from Heroes 4 was eventually discarded.

And here's what Neal Hallford had to say about the plot of the series:

Chronicling the fallout from an epic cosmic battle between a mysterious race of presumably benevolent planet-seeders known as the Ancients, and a second race of creatures called the Kreegans, every title has built on the story premise first laid down in the original.

The italics on "presumably" are in the original text.

[Xfing]

I think that "presumably" was either a foreshadowing or a commentary on the events of Might and Magic 8 (depending on when it was written). Let's not forget that it was the Ancients who set Escaton loose upon Enroth. Not a benevolent course of action.