How Old is Nicolai Ironfist?

[GreatEmerald]

Well, that's a sure way to start an internet backdraft!

In my opinion after playing through the first four HCs, Paradise is another plane. I don't think it's related to either of the towns, as they were quite easily accessible and very much in a different position in space. And the Underworld is just a system of deep caves with something causing hallucinations (technology, magic, biology, take your pick).

[MMXAlamar]

2. According to Lysander campaign in HIV, Reckoning was 6 years before campaign and this campaign takes place 4 years after Reckoning. Long story short Reckoning was in year 1173 AS.

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense at all. The Reckoning takes place 6 years before Lysander's campaign, but it also takes place 4 years before Lysander's campaign?

MM8 takes place in 1172-1173 so that is probably not the date of the Reckoning...unless it happened right after Escaton's crystal was destroyed.

[Avonu]

2. According to Lysander campaign in HIV, Reckoning was 6 years before campaign and this campaign takes place 4 years after Reckoning. Long story short Reckoning was in year 1173 AS.

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense at all. The Reckoning takes place 6 years before Lysander's campaign, but it also takes place 4 years before Lysander's campaign?

MM8 takes place in 1172-1173 so that is probably not the date of the Reckoning...unless it happened right after Escaton's crystal was destroyed.

Oops. I meant that Reckoning was 4 years before Lysander's campaign and according to HIV it should be year 1173 AS. But as you can see, it is not possible because of plot of MM8, Clash of Dragons and Sword of Frost.

Let me quote full someone else about HIV and Reckoning date:

--happened 4 years after the Reckoning according to Milton. Desette said she hadn’t seen her husband in six years, so presuming he left with Queen Catherine after the Demon Wars (her being the last of the known Gryphonhearts barring her son), which in turn ended the year prior to MM8 (according to the Hero of Jadame) which in turn took place in 1172, places Lysander’s campaign in 1177 AS Enrothian time.

From MMIX we know that Roland and Catherine Ironfist never return to Enroth, otherwise Nicolai would mention it. And I don't think they needed 4 years to voyage from Jademe to Enroth (if Reckoning was in 1178 AS like suggested in MMIX). Also words from Nicolai and from Roland letter in MMIX suggest, that Reckoning took place not long after AB but clearly someone forgot about events from SHeroes Chronicles and MM8 (and that in AB Nicolai was 16 years old), when he wrote these dialogues (and letter).

[MMXAlamar]

Hmmm alright, and what year does AB take place in? How about HC: SoF?

[Avonu]

AB takes place after MM7 (1168-1169) and before MM8 (1172-1173). Also Nicolai is 16 years old in the middle of AB, so it would be 1171. He was 10 in MM6, which takes place in 1165 AS. So AB takes place ca. 1171-72 AS.

Sword of Frost takes place max 1 year before Reckoning (more like few months) as right after this campaign, Kilgor started his campaign to conquer Antagarich but was very soon was stopped by Gelu (I assume it was only few weeks between end of SoF and intro of HIV).
Not long after AB we have Clash of Dragons* and Sword of Frost, so I assume both of them took not longer then 1-2 years to complete.


*Now that I know, it was Greg Fulton, who was "keeper of the lore" and knew plans for future add-ons and games and without him, no one knew where the plot go next or who is who in games, I am 100% sure, that king of Erathia mentioned in CotD is a mistake and rumour from tavern in AB about Mutare is 100% true.

[MMXAlamar]

OK if the Reckoning is in 1175, then wouldn't Lysander's campaign take place in 1179?

I don't see how you can get any dates that determine the Reckoning from H4 because there weren't any dates in H4. The only way they measured time was in years, for example, "I will tell you of the events that took place four years after the Reckoning."

[Avonu]

Could you tell me where there is information about six years? I have long searched this mention in campaign, but found nothing.

About these six years... well, Reckoning was 4 years before Lysander's campaign. It was Sir Kentaine who didn't see his wife Desette for six years. Sorry for my mistake, I don't know why I wrote six years when I had on my mind four years.

I will tell you of the events that took place four years after the Reckoning.

Unfortunately, Sir Kentaine had been missing since the Reckoning. Many believed that he perished along with Queen Catherine, but what if Sir Kentaine managed to escape to this world?

Before Sir Kentaine could take it, Desette jumped into his arms and kissed him longingly. I turned away as they wept happily. Not only did it seem to be a private moment, but I also didn't want to be reminded that I have never been greeted in such a manner.

When the couple's lips finally parted, Sir Kentaine wrapped the woman in his big arms and held her close as he looked at the True Gryphonheart Blade.

"I cannot take it, sir," Kentaine said. "I have outlived a king and a queen. I swore that if I ever saw my wife again I would renounce my title as Swordbearer so that we could live the remainder of our years together. We have been apart far too long!"

"More than six years, my love!" Desette said.

"Six years! So long!"

Lysander shifted uncomfortably.

"There must be a Swordbearer, Sir Kentaine."

"Yes," Kentaine replied. "Let it be he who won the sword back from Mastero."

As we know, Queen Catherine sailed from Antagarich right after AB (plus maybe few months later) and nominated Morgan Kendal as regent to choose new king. As sir Kentaine was Swordbearer, he must stayed behind on Antagarich to give sword to new king. (from rumours which I heard very long ago, it was planned by NWC to be Gelu, but I am not sure, how much true is in these rumours). And before that it was Queen Catherine who had sword (I don't think she, as legal ruler, not use this regalia of her family, as it is a symbol of king power).
Words about perish of Catherine is obvious mistake or plothole as you choose, because she and Roland sailed safely to Jadame and no new king was ever choose by Kendal as far as I know.

OK if the Reckoning is in 1175, then wouldn't Lysander's campaign take place in 1179?

Yes, The True Blade starts 4 years after Reckoning, this is the fact from HIV.

[GreatEmerald]

Words about perish of Catherine is obvious mistake or plothole as you choose, because she and Roland sailed safely to Jadame and no new king was ever choose by Kendal as far as I know.

But the text is talking about perishing in the Reckoning, not just some random death...

[Avonu]

It's just a quote. Read texts from all campaign, then you will see big picture.

[MMXAlamar]

Alright, so the latest date we actually know of is 1173, which marks the end of MM8. Which games happen after MM8 that might dictate the timeline? I still don't see how you come up with 1175 as the year of the Reckoning.

-Alamar

[Avonu]

After AB we have two different plots in games: the Ancients-Kreegan war (MM8) and Antagarich's one (Heroes Chronicles).
When AB has ended, we had Clash of Dragons and Sword of Frost on Antagarich. We don't know, how long they took place but I would say, based on time which passed in this games, it would be 2-3 years. Tarnum needed time to gather army against Mutare and to defeat her and next more time to gather another army in Nighon after her death and to sail to Vori and search for Sword of Frost.

There is no way to correctly guess Reckoning date, but ca. 1175 seems to be the closest one. If it would be 1173, then Tarnum had too little time to do his quests.

[MMXAlamar]

Ah, so HC overlaps and passes MM8. I haven't played these but I'll try and dig them up somewhere. Are there references to time in both of these games in the campaign texts?

[Avonu]

[Copper God]

2Avonu:
1171-1172 - AB, 1173 - CotD, 1174 - SoF. IIRC there were a big war against Kilgore (for example, Eldrich Parson lead his elven army and died in battle). So I doubt that the fate of the world decided for a few months after SoF. I agree with the assumption that the cataclysm could happend in 1175. But I also do not exclude that it happened later...

... Because as we know Catherine and Roland could not travel for three years at the sea. Therefore, the problem with Nicholas is still controversial. So we should find a different explanation for his behavior.

About CotD. At the end of the campaign Catherine abdicated the throne. So it's logically that in CotD erathians have new king. Probably, this leader was trusted Catherine's knight, Lysander, who feared to call himself as the King. Or another person, which we don't know.

As sir Kentaine was Swordbearer, he must stayed behind on Antagarich to give sword to new king.

This problem is easily solved. Kentain was Gryphonheart's Swordbearer. So he could be with Catherine in Enroth.

[MMXAlamar]

It's also possible that Morgan Kendall never got the Gryphonheart Blade. Was he a descendant of Nicholas Gryphonheart? If not, then theoretically he couldn't wield the sword.

[XEL II]

There is no way to correctly guess Reckoning date

There is -- based on Nicolai's age in MM9. He was around 23 (no reason why Tim would be wrong about it, he was the one developing Nicolai's MM9 story) years old, being born in 1155, so it's in the period from late 1177 to early 1178.

By the way, Roland's letter to Nicolai found in MM9 doesn't really spawn any discrepancies. It is mentioned in AB heroes' bios and campaign texts that Roland and Catherine returned to Enroth for some time (after Roland physically recovered from his imprisonment in Colony Zod) before the events of the campaign.