How do you guys play a Runemage or Wizard without logistics?

[cjlee]

Seeing the forums quiet, I've decided to start a discussion again.

Question is, how do we play a Runemage or Wizard without logistics?

These are the '2%' heroes who find it hardest to get offered logistics. I have played them to level 20 and above without being offered logistics!

Having played the campaigns many times on different difficulties, I have been able to get logistics for Wulfstan and Zehir on almost every playthrough. But in a non-campaign game, you have almost no opportunity to get logistics for them.

I have been playing since Heroes I and the ability to get logistics is extremely important for me. Over 90% of all main heroes I have ever fielded in over 16 years of gaming got logistics before level 10. Probably 98% had logistics by the end of the game. Inevitably, if my main hero lacks logistics, the map takes significantly longer to complete.

There my question.

I have found it extremely hard to play Wizards and Runemages well. They are slow, their troops are slow, they achieve far less than an enemy with logistics. They don't grab resources fast, they don't explore fast, they don't level up fast, they can't chase their enemies or run away.

Playing a Wizard or a Runemage is just an experience in Pain and Annoyance in many cases.

I'm an experienced Heroes V player, and I confess I still find it hard to play these guys. Sure, I can beat the computer in any scenario (but take much longer than if I started with a Ranger). But how to defeat a human player?

The only times I have ever outplayed a human opponent with a Wizard was when I played defensively and let him exhaust himself at my castle towers. I haven't even been able to beat a human opponent once with a runemage.

I have been trounced many times on the battlefield versus people like Rangers and Knights simply because they can act faster and hit harder. My Wizard can never cast fast enough; my Runemage is too ineffective so the only way to even make a Dwarven battle a competitive one is to spend lots of resources on runes and hope for the best (eg for Thunderclap to trigger or Magic Immunity to randomly choose the correct elements).

Against a Warlock, I'm a loser also. Their troops are far superior and their spells more painful. In a real game I rarely have the time to return to base and resources to really buff up my troops with artifacts; likewise in a real game I often run out of an important resource (eg crystal for Rune of Resurrection).

Against a Necromancer, Wizards and Runemages do ok. These are magic users vs magic users.

Against a Demon Lord, my battlefield record is mixed. They tend to hit me very hard and do a lot of damage early on, and they always get a few nasty spells like Frenzy thrown in, although Dwarves being resilient I can generally survive long enough to kill the low-hp demons - albeit with huge casualties.

Since Runemages and Wizards are the weakest heroes, they require artifacts and lots of rune usage to overpower the enemy. Problem is, many real battle scenarios don't give you this opportunity. You could run out of crystal and sulphur after a major battle. You could pick up a Sar-Issues +6 knowledge artifact, but be too far from your Academy to update your troops' artifact powers.

When you factor in a lack of logistics, the problem is worsened. Weak and Slow heroes never do well versus human opponents. Given enough time anybody can beat the computer (And I have done so often enough), but why would your human enemy wait for your Wizard to get lots of spells and +20 knowledge with Expert Triple-buff Artifacts? By the time my Wizard is level 15; the human enemy is level 18 and have visited a few more buff structures than me. I would still be struggling to build a level 5 mage guild; he'll just charge in with his master hunters and nightmares.

So, how do you guys win playing Runemages / Wizards WITHOUT logistics?

[ShadowLiberal]

It's impossible not to get logistics on Wulfstan, since he starts with it.

As for other heroes, you have few options.

-Try visiting witch huts, maybe you'll get lucky.
Or
-Save your game at the start of the mission, cheat your level up, and if you don't get offered logistics, reload. Just keep in mind, the level up options you get depend on what skills/abilities you already have, as well as a random number generated at the start of the mission.

[cjlee]

ShadowLiberal, I am not referring to Campaign maps against the computer but games against either human opponents or games played on maps with 4, 6, 8 factions.

In other words, there is no way to reload.

XXX

Let me lay out a scenario. You are playing a Runemage or a Wizard. He has no logistics and never had the chance to get logistics.

Forget about Witch Huts; assume that The Gaming Gods aka Asha have denied you logistics. If there's a witch hut with logistics, it is next to your worst enemy's Sylvan or Haven castle. The best they'll give your Wizard is Leadership so you can go for Artificial Glory, hahaha.

You have either one human enemy, or multiple human opponents who could be of any race and come at you from any angle. (IE the kind of map where you can't turtle and hope the enemy commits suicide while besieging you, because while you turtle he could be defeating all other factions and gaining multiple castles.)

How are you going to win?

[markkur]

I don't play on-line but often have the same frustration on fan-maps. Having a RuneMage on the wrong terrain is a real drag. When it's Grok you're chasing it's a joke to even try.<L>

If you have a map that you like to play but would like to have this altered, I can set-up your Mage or Wizard to start with logistics & pathfinding. Or, if you would prefer, I could give you the steps to do it yourself.

Since I play Quantomas' A.I. and it has 8 skills I do get more chances for the movement skill and sometimes get it.

[Mirez]

Isn't it possible to have a secondary hero (one specializing in logistics preferably) carry the army. Not sure how the mechanics work in H5.

[cjlee]

Having played Heroes I to VI, I find Heroes V by far the most problemmatic if you don't have logistics.

I personally consider Logistics the most important Heroes V skill. Unless you're playing a small map, the presence of logistics should make or break your game. when two players of equal skill are considered.

That's unbalanced, especially when other version of Heroes are concerned.

In Heroes VI everyone gets town portal as long as they have mana and the right buildings. No faction is exceptionally likely to get logistics so there's balance here.

In Heroes IV, no logistics won't kill you. You can always get a secondary hero to scout, and army type (eg slow creatures on unfamiliar terrain slow you down) is as important as logistics.

In Heroes III and II, spells like Town Portal often beat logistics. So if you're a slow-moving Wizard, you can still survive late-game against a fast moving barbarian who has conquered lots of territory.

[danhvo]

You can try to improve your chance of being offered Logistic. When you are presented a choice between two new skills, pick the one that is most likely to be offered. For example, for a wizard, Enlightment and Summoning have 15% of being offered. If you get these two skills out of the way, among the remaining skills, Logistic will suddenly have a much better chance.

[Jarin]

Logistics can partially replace the use of an artifact "Boots of the Swift Journey". Shoes give nearly the same bonus as a logistics expert (3125 x 3249 points).