> 28 days later

[ywhtptgtfo]

Well, at least they finally fixed that problem where googling "Heroes 6" or "Heroes of Might and Magic 6" yields a bunch of fansites as a result with the official site being somewhere at the bottom of the search list

Who do you mean by "they"? The google search engine coders?

Not necessarily. There are ways to game the search engines to make them rank you higher for certain key words.

some time ago, and i personally do not appreciate this stripe very much. It kind of highlights a, IMO, major problem with Homm: justification of important gameplay aspects by lore. Fine for a RPG, bad for a strategy game.

Finally, I do not get how that all was a response to my last post.

I don't think they removed additional resources because they are lazy, but that it's just a failed move to make something original.

[Toejam]

Sorry to say, but the bugs in this game are really the least of it's problems...

They completley changed the base mecanics of this game so much that it's not Heroes of might & magic anymore. In Heroes it was allways fun to explore/search for recources, they completley ruined that with this "area of control" (wich they borrowed from diciples btw), no need to explore, just take the damn fort/castle as quick as you can, the rest is a waste of time anyway...

After that it's just town portal form town to town/fort to defend them until the AI gives up, not gonna begin to discus multiplayer because that is even worse, it's like playing a game with wizzards only (thank you cheap town portal...) All the time...

The converting of towns/forts/creature dwellings seem nice at first but gets boring verry quick, it takes away alot of the charm of a heroes game with its unique buildings/creatures

[Mozared]

Sorry to say, but the bugs in this game are really the least of it's problems...

They completley changed the base mecanics of this game so much that it's not Heroes of might & magic anymore. In Heroes it was allways fun to explore/search for recources, they completley ruined that with this "area of control" (wich they borrowed from diciples btw), no need to explore, just take the damn fort/castle as quick as you can, the rest is a waste of time anyway...

Untrue. You only claim mines in your area of influence if the mine is unclaimed/unguarded to begin with. AKA: you only claim mines that have already been visited. AKA: the 'exploring' you're talking about doesn't exist, unless you call sending an alternate hero to walk through a desert of cleared space to claim an empty mine 'exploring'.

With less mines there's definitely less 'exploring' as a whole to do (since maps are automatically smaller and there are less important gains to get by exploring), but area of influence has little to do with this.

After that it's just town portal form town to town/fort to defend them until the AI gives up, not gonna begin to discus multiplayer because that is even worse, it's like playing a game with wizzards only (thank you cheap town portal...) All the time...

I'm not entirely sure what everybody's pet peeve with town portal is. I like the change, at least for singleplayer. Sure, there's less strategy involved, but for as far as I've noticed really all the strategy that is 'lost' it that you can't send 1-army heroes to capture an enemy's town as soon as he takes off to do virtually anything. That kind of annoyed the heck out of me to begin with.

The converting of towns/forts/creature dwellings seem nice at first but gets boring verry quick, it takes away alot of the charm of a heroes game with its unique buildings/creatures

Well yeah, but the bigger complaint here is "there are only 5 races". Because in the end, that's what takes away from the uniqueness of the game. I know some higher-end multiplay made us of mixed armies, but I personally haven't really seen anyone reliably do it and do it often in any of the previous games. I like the idea of being able to make good use of enemy towns I capture instead of being stuck playing two factions at once.


There's plenty of stuff wrong with H6, but I feel people are pointing out the wrong arguments for partly the right reasons. Take off your nostalgia-glasses, guys: it's never going to be like H3 anymore due to the simple fact that it's not 1999 anymore and that developers are trying new stuff with their games instead of just remaking Restoration of Erathia. You can reserve the right to not like the new games, but consider if what you're saying actually makes sense before you jump on the anti-H6-bandwagon.

[Pitsu]

Well yeah, but the bigger complaint here is "there are only 5 races". Because in the end, that's what takes away from the uniqueness of the game. I know some higher-end multiplay made us of mixed armies, but I personally haven't really seen anyone reliably do it and do it often in any of the previous games. I like the idea of being able to make good use of enemy towns I capture instead of being stuck playing two factions at once.

Adding more races would not help with this problem. Only if they introduce interracial synergies. If you have not seen mixed armies in previous games, then perhaps you could play these games? For starters a 3 player game with you against 2 other persons, each for his own. Try to win it without mixing armies. Another possible problem i have encountered that people do not fight to the end. If their stack of angels or titans is dead, they fail to see the stack of dragons waiting in a secondary town and prematurely worship game over.

Take off your nostalgia-glasses, guys: it's never going to be like H3 anymore ...

One of the claims that fills me with most rage is the nonsensical assumption that everyone who does not like H6 is a H3 fanboy and want a h3 remake. H3 had so many things wrong or not on the best quality. Each version of Homm has something superior to others and something inferior. The problem is exactly that:

... it's not 1999 anymore and that developers are trying new stuff with their games instead of just remaking Restoration of Erathia.

...they are trying out new stuff which seem to be random ideas and not intelligent design choices. The justification we got for resource reduction was very weak in logic and although a 4 resource system can be made more strategic than the old 7 resource one, I see they failed in it miserably. I do not want the developers to try out all their brainfarts and mix them "elements that define the great Homm experience". I want a rationally designed game.

[peta62]

... it's not 1999 anymore and that developers are trying new stuff with their games instead of just remaking Restoration of Erathia.

...they are trying out new stuff which seem to be random ideas and not intelligent design choices. The justification we got for resource reduction was very weak in logic and although a 4 resource system can be made more strategic than the old 7 resource one, I see they failed in it miserably. I do not want the developers to try out all their brainfarts and mix them "elements that define the great Homm experience". I want a rationally designed game.

Although I am Heroes 3 fan I totally agree. I will always compare new releases with H3 but I do not want it the same, I just want at least part of fun I had and have with H3.


About resources, mines, town portals :

I think it was even easier in H3, town portal cost almost nothing, providing you had the spell and Expert earth magic skill ( or devil race ), while in H6 it consumes majority of one day movement. In H3 you could jump all your castles in a day without problems. ( And having Expert sorcery enabled collecting almost all windmill resources. Whether its boring is everybody's opinion, I did it during town building phase, later I lived only from "normal" mines ) I think it is necessary to have at least some way of town portal, otherwise you have no chance reasonably defend your town against week AI heroes running everywhere, waiting for easy pray. Especially when they have more movement than your hero, who knows where they got it, as it is sometimes in H6.

About town converting, race mixes :

I found mixing races so challenging as interesting, especially with morale penalties for some mixes. I liked converting very much in the beginning, but I do agree it takes something away from the game ( and fun ) after some time. I hope there will be more races added in the future.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[Humakt]

I wouldn't mind H3 remake actually.

However, remake must have solved balance issues (there are numerous), a lot better AI, improved graphics (but in isometric 2D), more useful spells and improve the useless ones, more secondary skills (and you can have more than 8 of them), more neutrals and couple new exciting towns.
Map editor is otherwise ok but some features from H4 editor would be welcome (mainly the scripting and customizable palettes)-

Doesn't sound so much like a remake anymore.

Maybe there should also be some kind of army limit per hero, which is affected by level and possible secondary skills.

[Mozared]

One of the claims that fills me with most rage is the nonsensical assumption that everyone who does not like H6 is a H3 fanboy and want a h3 remake.

I never said that. I do however think that a lot of the complains about both H5 and H6 are simple H2 or H3 nostalgia. I've found the offense on H6 more nonsensical than the defense.

Each version of Homm has something superior to others and something inferior. The problem is exactly that:

... it's not 1999 anymore and that developers are trying new stuff with their games instead of just remaking Restoration of Erathia.

...they are trying out new stuff which seem to be random ideas and not intelligent design choices. The justification we got for resource reduction was very weak in logic and although a 4 resource system can be made more strategic than the old 7 resource one, I see they failed in it miserably. I do not want the developers to try out all their brainfarts and mix them "elements that define the great Homm experience". I want a rationally designed game.

So enlighten me: I'm still looking for arguments as to why it's so alledgedly horrible. For as far as I've found, the main differences is that marketplace juggling has been changed (note, not removed) and that exploring beyond your three mines is less rewarding than it was in the older games (if you have your resources, you can build an army, while in H3 or 4 you needed to explore all over the place in order to actually get this army up. Still though, I don't see why this is such a terrible thing.

On another note, I don't think this is just 'a random brainfart'. The resource system has been intact for 5 Heroes games plus expansions; it was only a matter of time before someone started wondering whether it could be altered in an attempt to make gameplay different, and hopefully better.

[peta62]

I wouldn't mind H3 remake actually.

However, remake must have solved balance issues (there are numerous), a lot better AI, improved graphics (but in isometric 2D), more useful spells and improve the useless ones, more secondary skills (and you can have more than 8 of them), more neutrals and couple new exciting towns.
Map editor is otherwise ok but some features from H4 editor would be welcome (mainly the scripting and customizable palettes)-

Doesn't sound so much like a remake anymore.

Maybe there should also be some kind of army limit per hero, which is affected by level and possible secondary skills.

Makes me wonder, did you try H3 Wake of Gods ? I think it has part of your points inside.

[Edwardas 3]

There's plenty of stuff wrong with H6, but I feel people are pointing out the wrong arguments for partly the right reasons. Take off your nostalgia-glasses, guys: it's never going to be like H3 anymore due to the simple fact that it's not 1999 anymore and that developers are trying new stuff with their games instead of just remaking Restoration of Erathia. You can reserve the right to not like the new games, but consider if what you're saying actually makes sense before you jump on the anti-H6-bandwagon.

What that-plenty of wrong suff is?

Never going be H3 because its not 1999-unconsious troll attempt : we all know that it won't be exactly as in 1999 , but we talk about replacing right and interesting concepts to useless ones - Total WAR series goes the same from Shogun Total War in 2000 to Shogun 2 in 2011 and only thing they changed was risk-style map to geographic map in Rome Total War. Am tired to explain to ignorant one that when there a perfect strategy game Formulae is found , the devs must be very careful with changing it .


PS The main thing is people don't play it . The number of those ,who still in it is miserable ,comparing even to H5 .That is your answer . H6 is brain-nerfed ,primitivised failure .

[Humakt]

Makes me wonder, did you try H3 Wake of Gods ? I think it has part of your points inside.

I did try it many years ago. For some reason it didn't really appeal to me so I didn't play it for long. Maybe they changed core mechanics too much (commanders ) and some of the new elements (at least graphical) seemed to be in disjunction with core game.

[Mozared]

What that-plenty of wrong suff is?

Never going be H3 because its not 1999-unconsious troll attempt : we all know that it won't be exactly as in 1999 , but we talk about replacing right and interesting concepts to useless ones - Total WAR series goes the same from Shogun Total War in 2000 to Shogun 2 in 2011 and only thing they changed was risk-style map to geographic map in Rome Total War. Am tired to explain to ignorant one that when there a perfect strategy game Formulae is found , the devs must be very careful with changing it .


PS The main thing is people don't play it . The number of those ,who still in it is miserable ,comparing even to H5 .That is your answer . H6 is brain-nerfed ,primitivised failure .

That last bit isn't an argument. Not many people listen to A Wilhelm Scream or Relient K, yet they sing about themes that many people could definitely afford to pay a listen to.

That said: if you're so "tired of explaining", then link me to the threads where you've done that explaining? My whole point is that 95% of the criticism I've heard against H6 is either nostalgia-covered or just kind of nonsensical, and the only response I'm getting is short (and through that nonsensical) sneers about how it's terrible and about how it's a dead horse. That's like you telling me that you don't understand why people hate Justin Bieber and me responding that Justin Bieber sucks and that I don't care to explain further.

[Pitsu]

So enlighten me: I'm still looking for arguments as to why it's so alledgedly horrible.

It was bad because it added nothing new to the game but removed a dimension. OK, I would partly agree that it reduced randomness is multiplayer, which in a way is good, but I'd still say that other methods should have been used for randomness control. We used to have resources that were common for each faction and resources that were specific for factions. Now we have one more former and no latter. They could still have made factions more unique by having them more different resource needs and include resources to creature costs. Economics could easily be a reason for not converting towns, build mixed armies and thereby improve variability in gameplay. Compared to previous games resource managment has little challenge and choices.

On another note, I don't think this is just 'a random brainfart'. The resource system has been intact for 5 Heroes games plus expansions; it was only a matter of time before someone started wondering whether it could be altered in an attempt to make gameplay different, and hopefully better.

I would not say it has been intact. The resources have been the same, but uses have been different. H1 had no marketplace, in H4 alternative creatures were also a resource dependent question, H5 had artificier and runes, MMHK each town needed a lot of rares from 2 types and the unnecessary ones made settling and trading much more interesting. H6 has largely removed resource managment and there aren't much decisions to do regarding them. But maybe you are right and instead of "random brainfart" this idea should be called "planned butchering".

[Groovy]

The converting of towns/forts/creature dwellings seem nice at first but gets boring verry quick, it takes away alot of the charm of a heroes game with its unique buildings/creatures

Well yeah, but the bigger complaint here is "there are only 5 races". Because in the end, that's what takes away from the uniqueness of the game.

I think it’s a combination of town conversions, having only 5 factions, and having only 3 unit levels, that results in noticeably reduced variety compared to other Heroes games. Modelling town portal as structures has a similar effect because it can now be relied upon as a core element of the player’s strategy. In H3 it was game-winning, but not reliable; sometimes the player had to make do without it, resulting in different strategies being employed and leading to more variety. Having fewer adventure map structures also contributes, as does having fewer resources. It all adds up.

The reduction in the number of items could have been compensated for by increasing their interdependence, but this wasn’t done.

[ywhtptgtfo]

The converting of towns/forts/creature dwellings seem nice at first but gets boring verry quick, it takes away alot of the charm of a heroes game with its unique buildings/creatures

Well yeah, but the bigger complaint here is "there are only 5 races". Because in the end, that's what takes away from the uniqueness of the game.

I think it’s a combination of town conversions, having only 5 factions, and having only 3 unit levels, that results in noticeably reduced variety compared to other Heroes games. Modelling town portal as structures has a similar effect because it can now be relied upon as a core element of the player’s strategy. In H3 it was game-winning, but not reliable; sometimes the player had to make do without it, resulting in different strategies being employed and leading to more variety. Having fewer adventure map structures also contributes, as does having fewer resources. It all adds up.

The reduction in the number of items could have been compensated for by increasing their interdependence, but this wasn’t done.

^THIS is what I feel about the game (in addition to the bad story).

In Heroes 2, I always had this wondrous and lively feeling when I walked around the map.

"Cool! An archer house!"
"OMG a warlock town! Let's cap it and buy some dragons!"
"Hmm... a spell shrine, I hope I get the lightning bolt spell"
"TROLOLOLOLOL I haunted all of my friend's mines and fed all my peasants to them"
"WOoo lookie! A pile of beautifully-drawn gems for my cloud castle!"
"Ahhh... a pyramid. I better raid it before someone else comes"
"Fkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!! That wizard melted 2/3 of my troops with a chain lightning spell"

In Heroes 6, it's like:
"Oh look. A shrine of 7th dragon - I am totally not going to pay 13k gold to raise my level from 7 to 8"
"Okay. Another creature booster that boosts my core growth by x"
"Hey, I captured a necro town. It's time to get my secondary hero here to convert it"
"Is that a chain lightning? That tickles"
"Oh... someone's starting to get close to a town of mine. I will just wait a few days and then town portal back. No problem"
"I am out of crystal, but it's okay. I can buy tonnes of them from the market place"

[Blocks100]

So this is now available at 50% of the RRP @ Zavvi. I'm thinking of treating myself to a game over the festive period, (and I need a break from Skyrim!) - is it worth it, even at this price, with all the problems to date??

[peta62]

Well yeah, but the bigger complaint here is "there are only 5 races". Because in the end, that's what takes away from the uniqueness of the game.

I think it’s a combination of town conversions, having only 5 factions, and having only 3 unit levels, that results in noticeably reduced variety compared to other Heroes games. Modelling town portal as structures has a similar effect because it can now be relied upon as a core element of the player’s strategy. In H3 it was game-winning, but not reliable; sometimes the player had to make do without it, resulting in different strategies being employed and leading to more variety. Having fewer adventure map structures also contributes, as does having fewer resources. It all adds up.

The reduction in the number of items could have been compensated for by increasing their interdependence, but this wasn’t done.

^THIS is what I feel about the game (in addition to the bad story).

In Heroes 2, I always had this wondrous and lively feeling when I walked around the map.

"Cool! An archer house!"
"OMG a warlock town! Let's cap it and buy some dragons!"
"Hmm... a spell shrine, I hope I get the lightning bolt spell"
"TROLOLOLOLOL I haunted all of my friend's mines and fed all my peasants to them"
"WOoo lookie! A pile of beautifully-drawn gems for my cloud castle!"
"Ahhh... a pyramid. I better raid it before someone else comes"
"Fkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!! That wizard melted 2/3 of my troops with a chain lightning spell"

In Heroes 6, it's like:
"Oh look. A shrine of 7th dragon - I am totally not going to pay 13k gold to raise my level from 7 to 8"
"Okay. Another creature booster that boosts my core growth by x"
"Hey, I captured a necro town. It's time to get my secondary hero here to convert it"
"Is that a chain lightning? That tickles"
"Oh... someone's starting to get close to a town of mine. I will just wait a few days and then town portal back. No problem"
"I am out of crystal, but it's okay. I can buy tonnes of them from the market place"

Groovy and ywhtptgtfo got it absolutely right. I would only add I think the most important parameter to evaluate the game is how people feel when they play it. Yes it is a bit irrational, but in my opinion true.

So this is now available at 50% of the RRP @ Zavvi. I'm thinking of treating myself to a game over the festive period, (and I need a break from Skyrim!) - is it worth it, even at this price, with all the problems to date??

Its fun and I think reading this board prepared you for the worst, so now only the good things remain for you to discover.

[Angelspit]

"TROLOLOLOLOL I haunted all of my friend's mines and fed all my peasants to them"

We didn't say trolololol back when Heroes II came out.

[Pitsu]

"TROLOLOLOLOL I haunted all of my friend's mines and fed all my peasants to them"

We didn't say trolololol back when Heroes II came out.

But we did play it for longer than 28 days after release and still do and still say "Trolololol", even if we do not know what it means.

[Naki]

Imho, the game is great. I have played just 5-6 missions so far though.
The story and presentation - I like. The bugs are bearable so far.
I don't like the dumbing down (less resources/mass recruit/etc) much, but I can take it.

[Toejam]

Well yeah, but the bigger complaint here is "there are only 5 races". Because in the end, that's what takes away from the uniqueness of the game.

I think it’s a combination of town conversions, having only 5 factions, and having only 3 unit levels, that results in noticeably reduced variety compared to other Heroes games. Modelling town portal as structures has a similar effect because it can now be relied upon as a core element of the player’s strategy. In H3 it was game-winning, but not reliable; sometimes the player had to make do without it, resulting in different strategies being employed and leading to more variety. Having fewer adventure map structures also contributes, as does having fewer resources. It all adds up.

The reduction in the number of items could have been compensated for by increasing their interdependence, but this wasn’t done.

^THIS is what I feel about the game (in addition to the bad story).

In Heroes 2, I always had this wondrous and lively feeling when I walked around the map.

"Cool! An archer house!"
"OMG a warlock town! Let's cap it and buy some dragons!"
"Hmm... a spell shrine, I hope I get the lightning bolt spell"
"TROLOLOLOLOL I haunted all of my friend's mines and fed all my peasants to them"
"WOoo lookie! A pile of beautifully-drawn gems for my cloud castle!"
"Ahhh... a pyramid. I better raid it before someone else comes"
"Fkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!! That wizard melted 2/3 of my troops with a chain lightning spell"

In Heroes 6, it's like:
"Oh look. A shrine of 7th dragon - I am totally not going to pay 13k gold to raise my level from 7 to 8"
"Okay. Another creature booster that boosts my core growth by x"
"Hey, I captured a necro town. It's time to get my secondary hero here to convert it"
"Is that a chain lightning? That tickles"
"Oh... someone's starting to get close to a town of mine. I will just wait a few days and then town portal back. No problem"
"I am out of crystal, but it's okay. I can buy tonnes of them from the market place"

I must say this is pretty much exactly how i feel when playing this game, and what i was trying too say in the first place

It is still a Heroes game in name but they changed the mecanics of the game so much that it does not feel like one anymore, i did not have this with 5 btw, that game had probs but they pretty much all fixed them with the 2 add-on's, but the probs that Heroes 6 has are beyond repair because they are about the game design/mecanics itself, and can not be fixed by more races or better AI...