Is Ashan Axeoth? Same hero or namesake?

[XEL II]

The Kreegan were certainly wiped out on Enroth as a race, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be couple or ten of them, with whom Escaton didn't bother for obvious reasons - they were no threat to the planet. Really no contradiction here.

Kreegans in Necross came from the Fiery Realm, a planet infested by them to which Gauldoth opened a temporary portal. Some Kreegans slipped into Axeoth, Calh being one of the first to do so (as stated in his bio). Kreegans' pets, the Ice Demons, also joined the necromancers.

In MM9 Nicolai only assumes that Kreegans have attacked again, it is more than clear that what he's talking about was in fact the Reckoning.

And JVC never ceased to be the author, he just wasn't heavily involved in a few games due to 3DO's financial crisis. He was to be the lead developer in later games. And even when he wasn't leading the developer JVC was still considered the creator of Might and Magic, which is stated in the credits.

And, please, stop acting like you know better about the game world than its authors. Like it or not, Richard Dansky is author of Ashan, a million of your links to TVTropes won't change it.

[Corlagon]

Please, Slayer of Cliffracers, stop joking around and be serious for a moment: where did the games or writers say Ashan is Axeoth?

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Timberwood's resource warehouse is a gift from the Aranorn Elves to the Humans, to commemorate the signing of the White Treaty. Now the Great Forest of the Elves produces twice the regularly amount of wood for Timberwood residents.

Timberwood's resource warehouse was a gift from the Irollan Elves to the Humans, in commemoration of the "Forest and Castle" Treaty. Now this vast forest, blessed by the Elves, produces twice the usual amount of wood for the residents of Timberwood.

---

Yaffiah is the place where Emilia, the founder of Arcane, is buried. In the middle of the town a majestic monument to Emilia rises and if enemy gets close to Azhar walls, defenders of the town just need to take one look at the monument to restore their spirits and repel the attack.

Yafiah is the place where Sar-Shazzar, one of the great wizards of the early days of Ashan, is said to have passed away. In the middle of town there is a monument to him, and the town defenders fight like dervishes to keep this important site out of enemy hands.

---

History of Ammi-eshuh is the history of permanent struggle between the Death and the Great Forest of the Aranorn Elves. Every night hundreds of the dead walk to the town walls and destroy the young forest growth which tries to secure a place under the sun. During the day the Great Forest takes its ground back, and then the cycle repeats.

The Undead of Ammi-eshuh are in constant struggle with the primeval powers of the forest. Lingering druidic magics cause saplings and seedlings to sprout constantly throughout the town, and only by constantly culling high and low can the slaves and zombies keep up. The cycle is annoying for the Necromancers, but provides them with plenty of extra wood.

---

In the old days, a majestic city was rising here - one of the first founded by refugees from Erathia. During its history the town survived many wars but finally has been destroyed. Now, when Shagarakti was built on the ruins, the ancient graves serve as a source of reinforcements for the Undead army.

In the days before the War of the Broken Staff, a majestic city stood here - one of the first founded by the Mages. The town survived many wars but was eventually destroyed, and the victorious Necromancers built Shagarakti on its ruins. Now, they plunder the ancient graves for reinforcements for their Undead armies.

---

When the king of Aranorn decided to eliminate the dark elves, Damlad became the last frontier of the future exiles. The defenders put a spell on the town towers, bestowing on them the rage of the besieged. This allowed the Dark Elves to hold the town and force the Aranorn king to sign the Exodus treaty.

During the War of the Blood Moon between the Demons and all the people of Ashan, Damlad was the site of a heroic stand against a larger, well-equipped Demon horde. The defenders put a spell on the town's defensive towers, transferring to them the battle rage of the besieged. Thanks to the towers the Elves held the town, ultimately forcing the Demons to look for slaugher elsewhere.

---

The legend says that the Gate to another world is hidden inside the Amel-ishkun mountain - the world where the dead will find eternal peace. That's why hundreds of the dead are gnawing into the mountain, incidentally extracting tons of ore. The Necross rulers don't interfere - it's the third location of the mythical Gate the search for which provides a good source of income for Necross.

A legend says that ancient artifacts of the Spider Goddess are hidden away inside the Ishkun mountain. Hundreds of hopefuls scratch their way into the mountain, seeking items of power -- and incidentally extracting tons of ore. Interestingly, there are those who dare to whisper that the rumor of the artifacts comes from the ore dealers themselves...

---

The reason this all matters is that an author's intentions only matter AT THE TIME OF THEIR WRITING OF THE WORK!

Nope: in the TvTropes terms you are so heavily fond of, the above is known as a Re Write

Perhaps the most famous (and best handled) example is Tolkien's rewriting of The Hobbit, where Bilbo obtains a ring that confers invisibility in the Misty Mountains. As The Lord of the Rings reveals this to be the One Ring, Gollum's Back Story could no longer have him offering an Artifact of Doom as a prize to Bilbo for winning the riddle contest; instead, Gollum would never forgive "Baggins" for stealing his ring. A revised edition of The Hobbit was published, and the prologue to The Lord of the Rings explained the inconsistency: the original version was the story Bilbo maintained (building on the idea that The Hobbit was actually an autobiographical novel by Bilbo himself), but Gandalf eventually learned the true story by persistent questioning.

[lotusreaver]

I'm enjoying this back and forth discussion. But I would just like to say... smackdown!

[Avonu]

The Kreegan were certainly wiped out on Enroth as a race, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be couple or ten of them, with whom Escaton didn't bother for obvious reasons - they were no threat to the planet. Really no contradiction here.

Kreegans in Necross came from the Fiery Realm, a planet infested by them to which Gauldoth opened a temporary portal. Some Kreegans slipped into Axeoth, Calh being one of the first to do so (as stated in his bio). Kreegans' pets, the Ice Demons, also joined the necromancers.

Actually if you read HIV Demon heroes bios, you should noted that person who wrote them (and their behaviour in Gauldoth's campaign), thought about them as demons (you know, "we buy your soul for a couple of wishes") not the Kreegan from MM games.
If you remove "Kreegan" name from them, they will be just (mistical) demon race, not alien inveders.

But all these things do change nothing in the end, we like it or not, we blame author for not knowing/ingoring MM background and that the Kreegan was eliminated in MM8 times, etc. but these Demons are Kreegans.

[XEL II]

Actually if you read HIV Demon heroes bios, you should noted that person who wrote them (and their behaviour in Gauldoth's campaign), thought about them as demons (you know, "we buy your soul for a couple of wishes") not the Kreegan from MM games.
If you remove "Kreegan" name from them, they will be just (mistical) demon race, not alien inveders.

But all these things do change nothing in the end, we like it or not, we blame author for not knowing/ingoring MM background and that the Kreegan was eliminated in MM8 times, etc. but these Demons are Kreegans.

True, Terray didn't know much about MM lore. In fact, is knowledge was probably limited to some Heroes III campaigns. It does seem like he thought of Kreegans as demons. But still, there really is no contradiction about Kreegan presence in there, as I stated in m previous post. The Kreegans in Necross came from the Fiery Realm, another planet.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Nope: in the TvTropes terms you are so heavily fond of, the above is known as a Re Write

Perhaps the most famous (and best handled) example is Tolkien's rewriting of The Hobbit, where Bilbo obtains a ring that confers invisibility in the Misty Mountains. As The Lord of the Rings reveals this to be the One Ring, Gollum's Back Story could no longer have him offering an Artifact of Doom as a prize to Bilbo for winning the riddle contest; instead, Gollum would never forgive "Baggins" for stealing his ring. A revised edition of The Hobbit was published, and the prologue to The Lord of the Rings explained the inconsistency: the original version was the story Bilbo maintained (building on the idea that The Hobbit was actually an autobiographical novel by Bilbo himself), but Gandalf eventually learned the true story by persistent questioning.

So what you are saying is that the writers rewrote the campaign lore of the towns to remove the references to Axeoth. When did they do this (just out of interest)?

An author can indeed rewrite an earlier work so that something happens or does not happen, is or is not the case in that earlier work. The rewrite does indeed supersede the canon of the old work. However as I said earlier, it is neccesary for the author to rewrite the work in order that their opinions have credence as canon.
As mentioned, it is canonical that Harry Potter not Gildroy Lockhart killed the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets, J.K Rowling cannot just declare that Gildroy Lockheart did so. She has to rewrite Harry Potter chamber of secrets so this is the case.

However Hammer of Fate or Tribes of the Easts are not rewrites of Heroes V, they are sequels. Strictly speaking the content of random town bios has no canonical status (because random maps have none) however the problem is they have used the towns in their own maps, meaning that they have become a canonical source which they wouldn't otherwise be.
So their attempted 'rewrites' then become either different ways of saying the same thing without mentioned anything incriminating; or additional information about the towns in question.

This is combined with all the other clues (the references to old characters such as Crag Hack) which pretty much screws over the entire Ashan is a different world concept because it provides a definate scheme within which to interpret it. We appear to be getting a whole pile more in Heroes VI too.

The Kreegan were certainly wiped out on Enroth as a race, but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be couple or ten of them, with whom Escaton didn't bother for obvious reasons - they were no threat to the planet. Really no contradiction here.

Kreegans in Necross came from the Fiery Realm, a planet infested by them to which Gauldoth opened a temporary portal. Some Kreegans slipped into Axeoth, Calh being one of the first to do so (as stated in his bio). Kreegans' pets, the Ice Demons, also joined the necromancers.

In MM9 Nicolai only assumes that Kreegans have attacked again, it is more than clear that what he's talking about was in fact the Reckoning.

And JVC never ceased to be the author, he just wasn't heavily involved in a few games due to 3DO's financial crisis. He was to be the lead developer in later games. And even when he wasn't leading the developer JVC was still considered the creator of Might and Magic, which is stated in the credits.

And, please, stop acting like you know better about the game world than its authors. Like it or not, Richard Dansky is author of Ashan, a million of your links to TVTropes won't change it.

If the Kreegans reproduce so unsustainably fast then I can't see why Escaton wouldn't be bothered with a few Kreegans. And there are no shortage of Kreegan creatures in Heroes IV.

Nicolai was talking about the Kreegan problem with his general before the event ever happened. That's why he falsely believes the Kreegans took Castle Ironfist, they were already 'a problem' in Enroth before the Reckoning happens.
What 'really happened' is the Kreegans popped back into the Fiery Realm amd hid there. When to their delight Escaton didn't destroy the world they popped back into Enroth and began again.

Richard Dansky is an author of Ashan, just as Jan van Canegham is an author of well the Might and Magic universe of which Ashan is regardless a part of. But because any computer game is a collective work involving a huge number of people to create, there is no-one that can be called the Author.

Not that it really matters because authors cannot overwrite old canon without rewriting the original work.

Actually if you read HIV Demon heroes bios, you should noted that person who wrote them (and their behaviour in Gauldoth's campaign), thought about them as demons (you know, "we buy your soul for a couple of wishes") not the Kreegan from MM games.
If you remove "Kreegan" name from them, they will be just (mistical) demon race, not alien inveders.

But all these things do change nothing in the end, we like it or not, we blame author for not knowing/ingoring MM background and that the Kreegan was eliminated in MM8 times, etc. but these Demons are Kreegans.

The author of the Heroes IV death scenario is quite aware that the Kreegans are aliens when he refers to the Fiery Realm as being a planet that has falled under the domination of the Kreegans.

Yet his Kreegans are also demons in the 'mystical demon race' sense, because the Fiery Realm is the source of the Kreegans 'power', which Gauldoth can travel too by destroying a magical object connected to the Fiery Realm.
The Fiery Realm is both a planet AND a metaphysical plane because the Kreegans collective purpose is to turn planets into the Fiery Realm from which they all ultimately come. However a particular form of Kreegan, the alien "hive" version has a specific biological function which facilitates the process quite well. Think of the way that the different Kreegan creatures in Heroes III fit together but at a strategic level.

Armageddon's Blade was Plan B, an alternative means of carrying out the purpose of this kind of Kreegan, which is turn the planet into a desolate waste so that the planet can be "cracked" by the other types of Kreegans and turned into an extension of the Fiery Realm (like the planet Gauldoth visited).
The Kreegans in the Fiery Realm (the Gate-Kreegans) have however serious limitations which the 'biological' Kreegan creatures (the Hive-Kreegans) help overcome, the former poses as allies of the latter until the latter have completed their function and moved on leaving the world to them with nothing to stop them.

The Hive-Kreegans are the ideal means of 'world-cleansing' because they not only eliminate annoying locals but they also have the ability to spread to new worlds to repeat the process time and time again.

[Corlagon]

This is combined with all the other clues (the references to old characters such as Crag Hack) which pretty much screws over the entire Ashan is a different world

"screws over" is a big stretch to say the least, wouldn't you say? You can't conclude that mentions of various old heroes is an implication that Ashan is definitively Axeoth. Especially when this is, what? The third or fourth time most of these heroes have been reincarnated? And almost all of these characters are already known to be different entities than their Axeoth incarnations.

If a mention or two of old characters is justification enough, Ashan might as well be Terra or XEEN. A character named Crag Hack was first seen on Terra, Agar was first seen on VARN 4, Lord Haart was first seen on CRON. None of that is proof that Enroth was somehow a fusion of these prior worlds, or that Ashan is a renamed Axeoth.

So what you are saying is that the writers rewrote the campaign lore of the towns to remove the references to Axeoth. When did they do this (just out of interest)?

You can see the "fixed" bios even in version 1.0 of Heroes V - any random map or scenario. So it was revised before any Ashan product was released. The "alternate" versions seen in the campaign have been identified as older placeholders (or "pre-development relics"), hardly a great big surprise considering that the game was pushed out the door before it was ready.

However Hammer of Fate or Tribes of the Easts are not rewrites of Heroes V, they are sequels

And what do you know, there is never once even a mention of Axeoth in either expansion (nor any of the other Ashan games to date)

What 'really happened' is the Kreegans popped back into the Fiery Realm amd hid there

Just for you, I asked him some time ago, and Tim Lang (who wrote Nicolai's dialog for MM9) confirms to me that Nicolai was referring to the Reckoning, not a Kreegan attack

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

"screws over" is a big stretch to say the least, wouldn't you say? You can't conclude that mentions of various old heroes is an implication that Ashan is definitively Axeoth. Especially when this is, what? The third or fourth time most of these heroes have been reincarnated? And almost all of these characters are already known to be different entities than their Axeoth incarnations.

If a mention or two of old characters is justification enough, Ashan might as well be Terra or XEEN. A character named Crag Hack was first seen on Terra, Agar was first seen on VARN 4, Lord Haart was first seen on CRON. None of that is proof that Enroth was somehow a fusion of these prior worlds, or that Ashan is a renamed Axeoth.

In those cases we have a definate reference to their seperateness in the way that Mauglin Ironfist travels from XEEN (I think) and given that the backgrounds of most of the migrant heroes are not described it's fairly easy to determine that they must have done the same thing given the immense similarities (not just name but appearance) between them.

The same thing could concievably happen between Axeoth and Ashan, there could be a similar magical means of travel between both worlds. Problem is that to simply conjure up magical portals whenever you need to transport characters between worlds, without making such travel a mundane part of the world amounts to A Wizard Did It.

In the above-mentioned case to have a character with the same name, fitting the same description, let alone looking the same is a Contrived Coincidence to a very great extent because of the odds are so great against it (especially when they look the same). The notion of magical portals between worlds is kind of justified by contrast because they do actually appear as an unusual part of the universe.

The 'controversial' characters in Axeoth are legendary and appear at some undefined point in the distant past and everything before what must be quite an advanced achievement OF a society, that of Sar-Elam is mysteriously unknown, no record apparantly exists of the chronology of the society that Sar-Elam grew up in for instance. To put is this way, Ashan could well be Axeoth and the inhabitants of Ashan given their apparantly abysmal historical abilities wouldn't even know it.

Throw in the town bios and basically the other world position is indeed screwed over. This particular town bio from the undead town of Shuma-Ischun which canonically is the town from which Naadir launches his successful search for a copy of the Seventh Dragon's works (Refugee scenario) actually not only references an event from the long-ago times, but also refers to the world as being called Axeoth at least in those long ago times. (brilliant story too)

Shuma-ishkun was founder by the Necromancers in the long ago times, when the plague raged all over Axeoth. These were the years of despair and many came to Shuma-ishkun hoping to live on after the inevitable death. The bodies of these unfortunates still serve as a source of military might for Shuma-iskun

But although at the moment I may well have the upper hand, the fact that the authors have determined to establish Ashan as being a completely different world to Axeoth means that I really have to make hay when the sun shines; there are plenty of things that authors could do that would rather badly Joss me. Adding Crag Hack to the game as a present character for instance.....

You can see the "fixed" bios even in version 1.0 of Heroes V - any random map or scenario. So it was revised before any Ashan product was released. The "alternate" versions seen in the campaign have been identified as older placeholders (or "pre-development relics"), hardly a great big surprise considering that the game was pushed out the door before it was ready.

I really can't believe my luck there though- them rewriting everything except the canonical bits! The interesting bit is it is obvious that the creators of Heroes V had obviously originally intended their work to be a sequel to Axeoth set at some point in the future. They then changed their mind (or were overidden). But what we can see from the bio of Damlad is that many of their core concepts were already established under this conception of 'Ashan' being Axeoth.

When the king of Aranorn decided to eliminate the dark elves, Damlad became the last frontier of the future exiles. The defenders put a spell on the town towers, bestowing on them the rage of the besieged. This allowed the Dark Elves to hold the town and force the Aranorn king to sign the Exodus treaty.

They originally concieved of the event as happening in the future of Heroes IV's Aranorn but then changed the name to Irollan while keeping the same basic event. This raises the question of how much of the basic history of Ashan was concieved of before they decided they were creating a brand new world.

And what do you know, there is never once even a mention of Axeoth in either expansion (nor any of the other Ashan games to date) wink

There doesn't even need to be. Axeoth is something the world used to be called and Heroes IV is part of the 'Ancient Age' the events of which have largely or entirely forgotten. It is ancient history to them.

Howeverit sounds like Heroes VI will be seeing plenty of references to old heroes and their 'relics'.

Just for you, I asked him some time ago, and Tim Lang (who wrote Nicolai's dialog for MM9) confirms to me that Nicolai was referring to the Reckoning, not a Kreegan attack

I know, but before the Reckoning happens he is talking to his general about the 'kreegan problem'. This obviously if an accurate recollection means that the kreegans were rampaging around in Enroth BEFORE the reckoning ever happened.

Anyway, who are you that gets to talks to actual game writers and ask them about specific bits of lore?

[Corlagon]

Anyway, who are you that gets to talks to actual game writers and ask them about specific bits of lore?

Someone very lucky indeed.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Anyway, who are you that gets to talks to actual game writers and ask them about specific bits of lore?

Someone very lucky indeed.

What are you? Are you one of his relatives or did you just happen to chance across him in a pub?

Or is this your way of telling me that it's a secret?

[ThunderTitan]

What Slayer, no attempt at Grag Hack being a clone used to host the soul of the original (there's a D&D spell for that even).

[mr.hackcrag]

no attempt at Grag Hack being a clone.

Grag Hack is his brother, not a clone. Jeez

[ThunderTitan]

Grag Hack is his brother, not a clone. Jeez

Man, and my brain kept telling me something's wrong with the spelling, but for some reason i kept looking at the g at the end instead of the one at the start...

[mr.hackcrag]

Well, you spelled it the same backwards and forwards. It could have been worse:

Frag Hack or Drag Back... Wrag Lack, or my favorite, Brag Sack. Possibly his hillbilly cousins.

[ThunderTitan]

You forgot their upper class wanna-be relative, Gregory Hack.

[XEL II]

Actually, there are two Crag Hacks in Might and Magic, but they are not relative. In fact, they even belong to different races (Terran one is dwarf, and Enrothian one is human)

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Actually, there are two Crag Hacks in Might and Magic, but they are not relative. In fact, they even belong to different races (Terran one is dwarf, and Enrothian one is human)

Yes there have to be two Crag Hacks because like you said there races are completely different. Two Crag Hacks!

The dwarven Crag Hack also doesn't look much like his human name-sake either.

Come to think of it, doesn't both Crag Hacks being a different character mean we only need portals between Xeen and Enroth (ie the one portal which Mauglin Ironfist uses)? What other clones are they that appear in other worlds to Xeen?

[XEL II]

First of all, it's Morglin Ironfist, not Mauglin Ironfist. Second, he is from VARN 4, not XEEN.

And those aren't clones, they are namesakes. They're not related In HoMM 1-2 the vast majority of recruitable heroes are re-used characters from MM 1-5. Same with most random town names. These are just "guest characters" and easter egg tributes, HoMM 1-2 itself was an anthology of MM 1-5 os sorts.

Few of these characters were used in the plot of the games (such as HoMM 3, where heroes actually had their own storylines through their biographies) as namesakes of respective MM 1-5 characters. These characters are Yog, Sandro, Gem, Halon, Crag Hack, Alamar, Luna, Agar, Falagar and Lord Haart.

[ThunderTitan]

Damn, there goes my theory that John Smith of Minnesota is a clone of John Smith of Weston-super-Mare... but how do you explain them both being blacksmiths?

[XEL II]

but how do you explain them both being blacksmiths?

The Matrix.